If it's the wrong part, maybe that is why I'm not getting a ammeter reading through it?

Google shows it as an Echlin 27-31 , 12 volt voltage regulator.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/294090624417" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.ca/itm/294090624417

Since all B's were 6 volt.... begs the question... is yours 6 or 12 volt ?

Can you read tag on the generator ??

A NAPA store actually have a tractor part  That's the best laugh I've had all day. For anything made before this century even if the snot nose punks even know want you're talking about the best they can do it the old Central Tractor line before they went out of business "We can order it" .  Going to a NAPA store is about as much of a waste of time as expecting to find what you need at a TSC.

That is a voltage regulator. Look on the bottom of the unit. There's probably a part number stenciled on it. Dave is right. Echlin is part of Napa. Look real close on that Gennie. It may have "12V" stamped on the chassis. (body)

Steve@B&B

1.could find no part number on regulator.  Jay's eBay picture shows it stamped in blue ink on galvanized base next to BAT terminal.  My base is painted black, with no part number visible.

2. I must have a regulator for a 12 volt system based on (a) Jay's link to the 12 volt eBay part, and (b) mine has 3 terminals and 3 coils inside, which must confirm that it is a 12 volt part as per Steve's info.

3. I believe my Allis B wants to be a 6 volt (a) I replaced the old dead battery with a 6 volt [I assume the old battery was 6 volt - but maybe not] (b) It has a generator, not an alternator, (c) the battery cables are heavier than the CA that Steve B helped me convert to 12 volt, (d) BUT I had to replace the 12 volt solenoid with a 6 volt to get the starter to work, (e) BUT I had to replace the 12 volt coil with a 6 volt to get the spark plugs to fire, (f) BUT the regulator is a 12 volt, (g) maybe the old deceased owner was in process of converting to a 12 volt system?

4. I cannot find a name or serial number on the generator.

5. An interesting find when I wired brushed the 3 terminals to get a better connection.  (a) the now visible FLD terminal was connected to the generator's positive post with 16g wire. (b) the now visible ARM terminal was connected to the generator's negative post wire heavier gauge black wire.  I think the FLD and ARM wires are reversed - can anyone confirm?

6. I think I flashed the FLD terminal several times to the positive BAT, because....  Obviously I believe this was wrong - should flash the ARM terminal to BAT.

At first light tomorrow, I'll try to right some of these wrongs.  Maybe it will help, but maybe not.

Better figure out FIRST what you want to do... stick with the OLD 6v or go with the NEW 12 V ...... 12v battery, 12v coil, 12v regulator... all go TOGETHER.... dont mix and match.

It IS POSSIBLE that they guy took a 6v REGULATOR and put on inplace of the OLD CUT OUT......

How does it CRANK and START with the 6v battery ??  If that is acceptable , then maybe you need a 6v REGULATOR...... The OLD LIGHT SWITCH had a resistor on it to act as an "amp output regulator" along with the CUTOUT.... the new  "REGULATOR" would no longer use the light switch resistor...

https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/allis-c-positive-ground-wiring-diagram_topic179994.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/allis-c-positive-ground-wiring-diagram_topic179994.html

Yes, mine has a positive ground.  I'm happy with the 6 volt system and it seems to start and run well, after spending some time and money on it.  So I plan to keep it 6 volt.

My next step in trying to get the generator to charge the battery, is to correct the FLD and ARM wiring on the 12 volt voltage regulator.  So just to clarify since it's a 6 volt positive ground: the ARM terminal should be connected to  the positive post on the generator, and the FLD terminal should be connected to the ground post on the generator. I am not hopeful that this will solve my problem, since it's 12 volt and not a 6 volt regulator.

I'll then see if Brenda Knauss from Sandy Lake Equip can determine what replacement 6 volt Cutout Relay I would need to be compatible with my unknown generator model.

If that fails, I'll take my generator and voltage regulator to a generator repair shop and see if they can sort out what I need to make it work.

I read through the link you sent and noted that OP said he replaced his cutout relay with a voltage regulator, as he understood the regulator replaced the need for a 3 position light switch (1st position is low charge, 2nd position is higher charge, and 3 position is light switch).

Again, thanks to everyone for their help.

So I have no clue on how to correctly wire a 12 volt regulator, much less a 12 volt regulator on a positive ground with probably a 6 volt generator.  I couldn't find any online Echlin wiring instructions.

Still waiting on Brenda to see if she has any advise.  I'll also try to send message to Steiner tractor.  I'll also search to see if there is a generator repair shop close to me.

The 6V regulator I bought you flash the ARM terminal.

Please, please, DO NOT attempt to use a 12 Volt regulator on a 6 Volt battery! There is no correct way to wire it.

If you have a 12 Volt battery and a 12 Volt regulator on a 6 Volt generator, the generator will put out 12 volts. For a while. Maybe for a long while. Maybe not.

Riprock wrote: The regulator in the ebay picture shows polarizing instructions for a "B" type used by early fords. You removed the field wire and touched it to the bat terminal. Delco used "A" circuit where you use a jumper between arm & Bat terminals to polarize. On a delco if you jumper from fld. terminal to ground the generator should charge wide open, bypassing the regulator. Never touch field to bat on an A circuit.

Excellent post.

The original poster showed a photo of an "A" circuit regulator, it is crucial to have the correct type.

The bestest way and the easiest way to get this system to work is remove the Generator, bring it to a good replicable rebuilder and have him mate the proper VR to the Gennie. What I do in my shop is if the Gennie still has the tag on it, I mate a VR to the Generator part number. I then set the two up on the 881 machine and dial them in together. If no tag, I run/load test the unit to see if there is any output and what it's max. output is. Then I mate the proper VR to the unit and run/load test them together.

As for Batteries, Steve is correct. Six volt Batteries have 3 cells. (caps) Twelve volt Batteries have 6 cells. (caps) Easy to remember.  If you plan on keeping it 6 volt and you're not using the 3 position switch to control the ground, (charging) mate the proper VR to the Gennie as I mentioned. Have a rebuilder do it for you. It takes all the guess work out.Another thing to keep in mind that's always overlooked. Make sure the fan belt you are using is new or in very good shape. Old dry rotted belts slip causing a no charge issue....  HTH

Steve@B&B

If you have NEGATIVE GROUND, then the HOT TERMINAL is the POSITIVE... That is one problem when discussing 6V systems.....

The drawing is also correct that the "A" terminal is toward the OUTSIDE of the tractor and the "F" terminal ( ground to light switch) is toward the ENGINE BLOCK.-- asssuming you had the ORIGINAL GENNY... which you probably do NOT ??

When you get your "REGULATOR", you need to determine how the BATTERY is grounded .. and that will be the "F" terminal.... the "A" to your "G" terminal will be the HOT terminal on the battery..

i think this is what is confusing us on "the wires are switched"...

Eureka! (maybe)

The Allis B is now charging at about -5 amps, using an old Allis CA generator. Battery tests a 7.96 volts (6.52 volts when not running) and 7.35 volts at the generator posts.

Hopefully the negative amp reading doesn’t mean it’s sucking out the charge. I did try to reverse the ARM/FLD wiring on the generator, but the ammeter read zero.

I installed the old Allis CA 6 volt generator that I happened to rediscover (I had taken it off in 1998 not knowing if it worked or not).  I was searching for a pulley for an old Allis B generator that I just purchased from a neighbor (he didn’t know if his salvaged generator worked or not).  Because I couldn’t remove the pulley from my old Allis CA generator, I just decided to see if it would work on my Allis B.

I found a never used cutout relay (in original box) in my tractor stuff.  Wrapper shows “R11-F, 6 volt cutout, 617837-3”.  It has “2727” stamped on its metal case.  Wiring was: GEN cutout terminal to generator ARM (bottom) post, Generator FLD (top post) grounded to small bolt on generator, I used 16 gauge wire for both.

I had decided to find a replacement generator, since I couldn’t get the current one to run by jumping it directly to the battery (with the belt removed).  Also, I didn’t want to run the risk of burning up the new 6 volt regulator I bought from Steiner.

The now unused Steiner regulator is part #ABC152, which is listed as for being for early model Allis D10, D12, etc.  Steiner identified what part I needed from the fact that my old Allis B generator has only two brushes, rather than three.  This new regulator has four terminals - terminal “L” (lights) would have been unused in my installation.

At last resort, I was going to make the 3 hour road trip to the “local” generator shop.  Thankfully I avoided this.  (maybe)

So now I have more excess parts if anyone is interested in them: (a) old D10 6 volt generator that doesn’t seem to work (maybe it needs new brushes?). (b) old Allis B 6 volt generator - don’t know if it works or not.  It’s missing pulley, cutout, and wiring. (c) new Steiner #ABC152 6 volt with 4 terminals, still in box - never wired and never installed. (d) old Echlin [NAPA] 3 terminal regulator. Based on info from jaybmiller & Steve, it’s a 12 volt Echlin 27-31 regulator. Don’t know if it works or not.

nice to hear someone's winning today (don't ask..)

as for the amps...

disconnect battery  THEN check the ammeter wiring. Odds are it was reversed when someone went -ve ground (the standard today ) from the +ve gnd wiring when the beastie was 'factory fresh'.

I am unclear as to how that is wired, it appears you are full-fielding the generator all the time?

1. jaybmiller and Alberta Phil:  I switched the ammeter wires (single wire on one post and two wires on the other post) and am now getting about +10 AMP reading at low charge (but high RPM).  Pulling light switch out to high charge did not move the needle.  I guess a negative AMP reading did mean it was actually discharging. Thanks for the advice, but now have to figure out the overcharging issue (see below).

2. Les Kerf: I reviewed the FLD wiring diagrams again and added a 16 gauge wire from the generator FLD post to the resistor wire post on the light switch.  I'm now getting 8.42 volts on the battery and 9.80 volts on the generator posts.  So I think it's now overcharging. Thanks for the heads up.

3. Steve: As per the above, the system now appears to be overcharging. - too many AMPS and too many VOLTS.  I also did note that the operators manual stated it should run at about 3 AMPS, but I don't know if this is at Hi or Low rpm. The light switch does have a resistor. I attached the new FLD wire from generator to the resistor. I attached the wire to the resistor wire end that was easiest to access - could that be the wrong end?  My resistor wire design is a little different than what is shown in the diagram. Lastly, I did FLASH the generator and grounded the instrument panel box, which helped a little (see below).

Any suggestions as next steps?  Maybe (a) defective light switch, (b) defective resistor, (c) wiring to wrong resistor wire end, (d) wrong cutout relay model, (e) remove the new wiring from FLD to light switch resistor, (f) time to take it to a generator shop????  Will appreciate your and other's thoughts on this overcharge problem.

If you GROUND the F terminal the amp gauge should say 8.

If you connect the RESISITOR to the  F wire and ground the other side, it should say 3 amps.

IF you get a LOT MORE VOLTS or AMPS out of the generator, then the generator probably need adjusted / cleaned/ etc.. internally.

You can take that cover off and LOOK at the brushes and springs pushing on the center shaft. See that everything looks GOOD... You MIGHT have a 3rd brush around the shaft that has a screw and slot that allows it to loosen and ROTATE  back and forth.. That ADJUSTMENT is to set the amp/ voltage charge on a simple generator that does not use a voltage regulator....... if you see rust , clud, broken or bent spring, worn brushes, etc, then you need someone to do internal work.

allows you to raise or lower the charge rate..

picture of 3rd brush design below on left.

You need to remove the wire connecting the field to ground at generator, it is full-fielding the generator, thereby driving it to maximum output (overcharging).

Interesting to note that when I pull the light switch all the way out, I never get an increase in charging rate. Could this indicate a faulty switch?

Steve:  I will try to adjust the 3rd brush as you suggested.  What is an acceptable target for battery VOLTS at Hi RPM?  I had read once that a battery should test in 7-8 volt range while at rest.  Anything in 6-7 volt range indicates a problem.  But have no clue what is target for battery running at Hi RPM.  Also not sure about the 3 AMP target at Hi or Low RPM.

07/18/24

 

I appreciate everyone’s comments, advice and patience.

IF you jumper the "F" terminal to the light switch resistor ( and it is grounded on the OTHER END), you will get 3 amps.

If you get the 8 amps with the ground wire, but not the 3 amsp with the resistor / wire... then the resistor is bad... the resistor is not grounded.. the light switch is bad.. the light switch is not grounded... or the light switch  BOX is not grounded.... basiclly you have NO GROUND when your using the resistor..

Thats why i said try an extra resistor... another option is to run the wire to the RESISTOR on the light switch and JUMPER the other side of the resistor to a GOOD GROUND... if that works, you know you dont have a good ground on the light switch ( or your using the wrong terminals)... if it does NOT WORK.. then your resistor is junk.

A GOOD GROUND test is to take a 2 ft long jumper and connect to the BATTERY + terminal, then touch the LIGHT SWITCH CASE.... and then the LIIGHT SWITCH RESISTOR terminal.... something is BAD at that area.

 

Ran through some of Steve’s suggestions and found that after jumping Resistor to Positive Battery Ground (with headlamp ON) the reading is 5 AMPS and 8.11 volts (both too high). Using the light switch’s high charging position did not result in higher AMP reading.  The headlamp remained ON under all three light switch positions, which is another problem.

Ran the test again with the headlamp disconnected.  Low charge was at zero AMPS and high charge was at 5 AMPS and 8.29 volts.

I considered buying a new Light Switch, but it appears these are no longer available for purchase.  I tried to compare my instrument box wiring to the published wiring diagram and found three potential issues:

Appreciate any advice or suggestions.

When you run the wire to the resistor , you get 3 amps.. when you run straight to ground you get 8 amps.. That will verify your generator is working correctly.. Dont care what the lights are doing.. worry about that later............. this is a simple version.... i might be temped to take the POWER wire off the light switch for now, just to verify that it is not adding to the problem.

What if your "F" wire is ALWAYS GROUNDED at the switch due to  wrong terminal or bad switch ?????

After running through some more testing (FLASHED after each wiring change), at a point where I can live with the current results of about 4 AMPS in all three light switch positions (without headlamps). To fix all the problems, think I would need a replacement light switch and/or an adjustment to the genny’s 3rd brush.

These tests were made with the front cover of the Instrument Panel Box removed. I had to separately ground the box to positive battery ground to get any AMP readings. The Instrument Panel Box is full - it contains: ammeter, starter solenoid button, ignition switch, and light switch.

When testing with headlamp wired, only one of the bulbs worked (one appears to be burnt out). I used the light to test for amperage discharge - but none was noted. Light remained ON for all tests, under all 3 LS charging positions, both when key is ON and when engine is running (thinking LS is bad).

I appreciate all the helpful comments and suggestions, especially the one pointing out the need for a switch in the ammeter wire terminals.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: ... I used the light to test for amperage discharge - but none was noted...

Was this with engine running?

If the engine is not running with the light on and there is no discharge indicated on the ammeter, then it is either wired incorrectly or the ammeter is faulty.

If the engine is running at high idle with a light on then a properly functioning system will not show a discharge because the generator will carry the load. It may show a charge occurring, depending on how many lights are burning. 

I am not convinced that your wiring is correct.

FWIW

IF you're into 'restoring' the tractor to original, then get a 2 wire genny and a cutout relay.

Be sure to monitor acid level in 6 v battery, use 'fat cables, and keep everything clean. Cutout relay can be a diode in the OEM  relay shell.

If you want a super reliable tractor, upgrade to 12 volt alternator/battery system. Cheap battery, can upgrade lights to LEDs, EASY to jump start car from tractor,can add a winch, etc. If you use the CS130 series or baby Denso ,they fit/look 'better'.

Steve: I had an earlier 10 AMP reading.  Better grounding of the instrument panel and another generator FLASH seemed to be the only thing I did to bring it down to 4-5 AMPS. I do have a problem with inconsistent AMP readings - maybe it is a grounding problem?

I installed (earlier) a new 16 gauge wire from FLD to resistor (the prior 12 volt regulator didn’t have one).  I’ll test it with a 14 gauge wire to see if it makes a difference.

Les Kerf:  Lights are ON both when ignition switch is ON (engine not running) and when engine is running - on all three light switch positions. Thanks for noting that the ammeter should show no discharge with lights ON and engine running.  My problem is I get the same 4 AMP reading both when the lights are wired and when they are not wired.

Although the Ammeter reads HOT on both terminals, maybe it is bad.  I’m pretty sure the light switch has a problem. 

I diagramed my wiring as best I could - see picture below.  I can’t see any variance when compared to the published diagrams(??).

Phil48 and jaybmiller: I’ve got too much invested in the 6 volt system to change it now.  Steve B. helped me convert my Allis CA to 12 volt - I agree that it’s been trouble free.

I asked previously if the ammeter shows discharge when the lights are on with engine NOT running but you did not answer directly. The reason for asking is to determine if the ammeter is functioning with anywhere near reasonable accuracy. We aren't expecting ultra precision, just ballpark.

With engine off, lights on, and ignition switch on, you should see maybe 4 amps to even 8-10 amps discharge. You may need to bump the engine a bit to get the points closed for this reading. Please do this test and let us know what you find. I look for the discharge-charge-oil pressure indication every time I start my tractor, it's just an automatic reflex; the needle should go down, then it should go up.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: I diagramed my wiring as best I could - see picture below.  I can’t see any variance when compared to the published diagrams(??).

The lower half of your diagram looks ok but the upper half is just weird.

Ammeter + should not go between the solenoid and starter. Battery hot, ammeter, and starter button hot can all go to the solenoid hot (big terminal). Starter button control goes to solenoid small terminal. The other solenoid big terminal goes to the starter.

Erase that weird short blue line at the top of the starter and move the ammeter to the hot side of the solenoid.

Steve: I ran 12 gauge wire from FLD to Resistor - no change. I’ll keep looking for possible grounding issues.  Do you have a wiring diagram that includes a starter solenoid and start button?

Les Kerf:

 

My current plan is to live with what I got - 4/4/4 AMPS - and keep searching for possible ground issues.  I’m in a better place now than before, thanks to everyone’s help.  I’ll try a NOS light switch if I can find one.  I doubt that the new style larger light switch will fit in my cluttered instrument panel box.  

           

The light came ON under both tests  - alternating ammeter polarities (which I took to mean switching jumper wires on ammeter terminals) - with all other wires disconnected.  What do you conclude with regard to the ammeter?

Not sure exactly what you meant by "in series".  I just ran a  jumper from Battery to ammeter terminal, and  another jumper from Light to other ammeter terminal.

Thanks for your help.

Ummm... nothing. I should have mentioned that the purpose of the test is to see what the ammeter actually reads in both directions. It should read something like 3-4 amps discharge one way and 3-4 amps charge the other way. If it doesn't read the same amount both ways then the gauge is faulty

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: Not sure exactly what you meant by "in series".  I just ran a  jumper from Battery to ammeter terminal, and  another jumper from Light to other ammeter terminal. Thanks for your help.

Series means all of the current flows through one device and then through the next.

If I run same test, but with the light switch between the ammeter and light, suppose it would show that the light stays on using each of the 3 light switch positions.  Something I already know.  Maybe I can find a new switch with a resistor that fits my instrument box at one of the upcoming tractor shows in my area.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: It reads +2 amp and -2 amp the other way.  So the ammeter appears to be good? ...

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

That gives us confidence that the ammeter can be trusted.

Now, let's try another experiment. You have proven that the light draws about 2 amps; let's use it instead of the resistor to control the generator field in an effort to prove the actual output of the generator. This should let you know if you really need to do any more work on the generator.

Leave the light switch completely disconnected.

Connect the ammeter directly to the output of the cutout relay, then directly to the battery.

Connect one side of the light to the field terminal on the generator, connect the other side to ground.

Use a jumper wire to energize the ignition (unless it's a magneto).

It is important to NOT use any of the original wiring in case there are problems such as shorting, poor connections, etc. This is intended to test the generator itself.

Run the engine at high idle, the light should be lit. Note the Volts and Amps.

At high idle, short the field terminal to ground, the light should go out. Note the Volts and Amps (they should both increase).

Vary the engine speed down to idle and see what happens ( the Volts and Amps should decrease, at some point the cutout should open and Amps should go to zero).

1. Red jumper wires are those you suggested

2. I added two squiggly dark green jumper wires: from Cutout/GEN to Genny/ARM, and from Ignition Switch to Distributor/Coil.  Are these correct for this test?

3. I kept the GRD wire from Battery to Instrument Panel

4. To spin the Starter Motor to start engine, I can FLASH it from the Battery until it starts

Let me know if this seems correct to you, or if something needs to change.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: Les - before I try to run test, wanted to make sure the wiring is okay in the picture below:

Hmmm...

The intent of this test is to simulate taking the generator to a shop and having it checked out on a test stand. Since I do not own a test stand, I just use the tractor (or vehicle) as it already has a generator mount and a means of spinning the unit under test.

The important thing to remember is that if you were to actually take the generator to a shop, they wouldn't have any of the wiring, etc. that is on your tractor that may interfere with the test. In order to accurately test/troubleshoot something, it is necessary to eliminate as many things as possible that may interfere with the test.

Visualize how a shop would set up the generator for testing; they would have a mount, a means to spin it, a battery, an ammeter, and a voltmeter. They would also need a way to energize and control the field. And nothing else.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: ... from Cutout/GEN to Genny/ARM

You do need this.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: and from Ignition Switch

I would leave the ignition switch completely out of the circuit

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: to Distributor/Coil.

I would use a dedicated jumper wire directly to the battery

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: 3. I kept the GRD wire from Battery to Instrument Panel

This won't hurt anything, it is irrelevant to this test because everything is being bypassed.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: 4. To spin the Starter Motor to start engine, I can FLASH it from the Battery until it starts

Yup.

Of course the battery needs to be grounded and also connected to the starter/solenoid

I realize this seems like a lot of fiddling around (it is) but once it is all set up it's sorta fun to play with the field and observe how the outputs change. You will be manually simulating the action of a voltage regulator, albeit much slower and with less precision.

Have fun!

Got it wired for the test - not sure how. See wiring picture.  BLUE wire: used same existing wiring (too many wires for me to jump).  RED wire: new Jumper wires.  “X” out faded: disconnected previous wiring.

What Is the conclusion: is Generator and wiring working properly?

Looks to me like you have a good, strong generator.

If it were mine, I would put an "A" circuit voltage regulator on it (actually, I would build my own regulator, but let's not go there just yet).

Now, you just need to decide what to do about your faulty light switch.

Dale (Stonelick) wrote: ... (c) new Steiner #ABC152 6 volt with 4 terminals, still in box - never wired and never installed...

Looks like you already own the solution

replace the 6 decade old switch..

for  fun, replace the open wire wound resistor with an enclosed one

for real fun, replace mechanical guts of regulator with 'solid state devices'

though what you have works fine according to the numbers.

Thank you Les. And thanks to everyone else for your helpful comments and suggestions.

A quick recap of problems, missteps, corrections and solutions: (1) originally had no amp reading unless a jump around voltage regulator, (2) multiple wiring problems, (3) replaced generator [with a used generator], (4) replaced voltage regulator with a cutout relay, (5) in retrospect, it seems that the tractor might have been wired as a 12 volt system, (6) the need for a good ground to the instrument panel box, (7) remembering to FLASH from BAT to GEN terminal after each modification, (8) positive test results on Generator, Ammeter and wiring, (9) now getting 4 amps at high idle under all three light switch positions, and (10) conclusion that the Light Switch needs to be replaced.

One thing I should have done early on, is to install a battery disconnect switch.

Thanks again.

And thank you for your feedback and diligent testing. So often we never get to know the results