WTF....What The Fuel ....
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=201796
Printed Date: 24 Nov 2024 at 3:31am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: WTF....What The Fuel ....
Posted By: rasman57
Subject: WTF....What The Fuel ....
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 3:03pm
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I was sure I had a dirty fuel system and/or carb on my gasser D14 mowing tractor when it began to sputter and needed choke to keep running when warmed up. The less throttle and load, the longer it would keep running before finally dying. Would run smooth at cold start and sometimes for a long while. It would then start to sputter and only choke would let it run and even then only for another minute or so. Shut it off and within seconds it generally would start again, only to repeat cycle. I was sure it was float or fuel delivery issue.... I pulled the tank and sediment bowl and replaced the bowl with new. The tank was clean as new with no signs of rust or junk. Fresh fuel flowing well from bowl into metal fuel line to carb. I put on a carb from a good runner ( I have a couple) and YIKES... same issue. It may run for an 15 minutes, an hour or so or maybe just until hot. I tried another nice running carb just to confirm and same issue. After 3 carbs, even I knew it was either the tank or downstream. The tank is spotless and flows well with and without the new sediment bowl. I would think the intake manifold/air fuel delivery system has to be next? Nothing visible with the intake manifold but I need to check it next. I was so sure it was the tank being obstructed as it was common to the different carbs, but now it has to be common to the engine. Any experience or suggestions on the manifold? I am not looking forward to pulling the manifold but will to solve the issue. |
Replies:
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 3:14pm
Check the coil, It can do the same thing as you describe... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 3:26pm
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I'd replace the condensor. |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 4:37pm
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Ahhhh..the old adage, if you think it's fuel related, check electrical. Hadn't thought of that yet. It has a Petronix ignition and new coil last winter along with all new wiring and alternator. Steve from B&B has nice stuff but the coil is a non flamethrower generic. I wonder about Distributor shaft now? I didn't think of electrical . |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 4:47pm
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It has a Petronix ignition. No points system anymore. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 4:50pm
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normally when you CHOKE and the rpm increases, you think loss of fuel... but it is possible that it has an electrical problem.. Since you got all NEW electrical and it fires right back up after dieing... i would continue to look at the fuel... How about the gas cap ? Dose it vent air in as the fuel is sucked out ? Run with the cap loose and test... Manifold gaskets will change SET as the engine warms up.. It is possible one has a crack and is leaking air .. that has the same effect as low fuel flow. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 4:58pm
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as a last resort you could verify valve clearance... when they get HOT and expand, you can effect operation.. but again, that would not allow an immediate Restart.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 5:32pm
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this... Shut it off and within seconds it generally would start again says NOT valve clearance . No way they'd cool down and regap 'within seconds' remove gas cap is a great test...easy to do, either proves it as the culprit. seriously doubt it's a 'manifold' issue, again restarts withing seconds.. It could be the Pertronix device, usually coils take longer than a few seconds to 'reset' though. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 5:36pm
| I eliminated the gas cap early on. That would have been too easy. |
Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 5:39pm
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Drain the gas tank, go to town a get 10 gallons of premium gasoline, give that a try. ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 5:47pm
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The Pertronix E.I. was designed to work with the stock OEM Coil. Their "Blaster" Coil is totally optional and does not have to be used in conjunction with their E.I. kit. It does have to be a 3 Ohm Coil, which if it's one of my 12V Conversion kits, the Coil is correct. Sure seems to act like a dirt in the Carb problem though especially when you pull the choke on and it stays running. The Distributors to wear at times and you get the ole' "waggle" in the mainshaft, but that wouldn't immediately just take a crap. Something like that happening will usually take quite a bit of time to where the engine doesn't have the power it had prior and eventually seem to act tired before it quits all together. It almost sounds to me like something is blocking the fuel delivery system where it runs good for a while and then eventually wants to quit till you yank the choke out... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 6:11pm
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I viewed it the same way Steve. I was thinking sticking needle/float until the Carb swaps. Then the tank, even though it looked clean. Swapped a new sediment bowl and even the hard fuel line. The strange thing is it will start right back up after only a few seconds and also seems to be only when warm. And I think the Petronix is good or bad with no in between? |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 6:38pm
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I'd change the coils....as it's not the gas cap the gas tank the gas filter the gas itself the carb dang WHAT is left ? ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 7:10pm
| My friend asked when it first happened after running well for weeks. I told him it was when I was bouncing along slowly on the bumpy grass lane into the old pasture. He said I cracked something hairline. I hope not. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 7:45pm
Don't overlook the wiring either, including the ignition switch. The first thing I would do is pull the coil wire and look inside the coil terminal for rust. Next, hot wire it. Completely bypass all of the tractor wiring. Also connect a ground wire to the distributor. If that doesn't cure it, replace the coil, then the Pertronix.
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rasman57 wrote:Posted By: AveryD12
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 8:19pm
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I had a similar problem with my D12. It would run awhile (no set amount of time), then die. Thought it was not getting fuel as it would spit and sputter like the tank had run dry. Let it set a minute or two and it would start up. Maybe run a couple minutes or maybe half hour. Bottom line-problem went away when I replaced the coil. Not saying it couldn’t be other things but that’s what solved my problem. Good luck |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2024 at 9:24pm
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AveryD12 is describing precisely what this tractor is doing. I just put 30 minutes or so into moving tractors around. It died twice after warm, but started back up and ran another 15 minutes with no problems. I will go after the electrical as I think the fuel side of this has been my focus. I will report back as I know when I read one of these threads, I appreciate the rest of the story. |
Posted By: deckape
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 10:24am
| How about running off another fuel source to totally elmulate a tank problem . |
Posted By: Newwood
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 1:06pm
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Although you’ve done a heroic job to rule out fuel, I agree with Deckape that a trial of an alternative tank would put the final nail in it. While not fun for you it is a great diagnostic thread! |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 1:07pm
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How well does the fuel flow out of the fuel line? Could be fuel line colapse on the inside. |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 3:29pm
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A good coil replacement did not solve the mystery As I really focus on how to initiate the issue, I am convinced of a couple factors now. If I suddenly let the clutch out and cause the tractor to jerk a bit...Almost immediately it begins to falter and stumble. Less throttle and sometimes it recovers but often it won't. Choke saves it but only prolongs my swearing. Secondly, a smooth drive takes it much longer to initiate. If it was shutting down right away, one would think electrical, but the stumble, hunting, and starvation symptoms sure act like fuel. I am going to use a temporary fuel line and can to further eliminate the top side. I keep wondering if there isn't a broken casting piece in the manifold that bounces enough to air gap..shuts down and lies down enough to start over.. Good thing I don't mind a bit of a mystery..but I am almost over this one. |
Posted By: AveryD12
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 7:51pm
| I hate make anymore suggestions after the coil didn’t solve your problem but have you considered the air flow to the carb. |
Posted By: alan-nj
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 8:13pm
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I have a C with a mag doing the exact same thing. And I did the same thing. Verified fuel flow thru line and carb. Tried other carbs. Same thing. I'm now going to the electrical side to try there. ------------- If ignorance is bliss, than happy days are here again. |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 8:38pm
The ground wire to the distributor suggestion? Les, explain that to me. I have also considered something strange causing a timing slip or alteration? |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 11:53pm
I have seen old engines that had poor grounding contact at the distributor; this can happen between the distributor and the block and sometimes in the breaker plate. A co-worker once had a Jeep that behaved exactly like your tractor, it turned out to be the ignition wire on the key switch was loose and would jiggle around, making contact at random. He had several other screws loose as well, but I digress  This is why I suggested hotwiring the ignition straight to the battery with a jumper wire, to eliminate as many possibilities as you can.
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 4:37am
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speaking of distributors, I have also seen the square bakelite insulator that carries the coil wire thru the side of the dist, to the points, crack in half, causing the spark to jump to ground, before making it to the points. a real head scratcher, at the time... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 7:20am
| We have Cub that was going through the same thing. It has a mouted cultivator. Runs great no load. Drop the cultivator and loses power then dies. Turned out the lift bracket had rubbed bare the wire going from the coil to the distributor causing a short |
Posted By: 8070nc
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 9:18am
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This may or may not be a help in your situation i dont know. I got a D17 series 4 a few months ago. Gave ni problems at all until i put it in the field pulling planter. Fine rust in the tank stopping up the main jet causing fuel starvation. Bear with me. I didnt have time to mess with the fuel tank so i got a elictric fuel pump and put a filter between it and the tank. I put a tee on the carbureator and ran a bypass line back to a tee between the filter and tank so that the pump doesnt build pressure on the needle valve in carb. Now all i have to do is keep the filter changed. No more fuel starvation problems ------------- 1984 80780 1957 D14 DES 300 with 25000 engine 616 tractor |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 9:48am
| Beginning to think it is electrical. Loose or broken wire or the short out. Like the hot wire idea. |
Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 11:35am
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Today I swapped out the Petronix unit to eliminate that. So the coil and EI are fine. If it is running and I goose it or jerk forward a bit, I can initiate it starting to surge and need choke for as long as 30 seconds before it dies. Then wait maybe 15 seconds and it fires with no choke and may run a few more minutes or a minute. It also seems to be when it is warmed up. The shutting down and firing right back up is instructive to me for air infiltration that seems to reset once the engine stops. I just can't comprehend how electrical could allow the engine to run on choke for another 30 seconds and then reset without issue. But I keep a fire extinguisher by the toaster because of my electrical skills. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 2:33pm
Disconnect the air filter
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Posted By: rasman57
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 3:22pm
| Did that early on as well as restricting it a bit to determine vacuum. Plenty of vacuum. Open Carb without air filter does nothing as well. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 3:51pm
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you say it happens when you HIT the throttle real fast... Im wondering if the governor is not set quite right and having touble keeping up...Then it might take a few seconds to get back into proper ........ not sure why it would happen only when HOT ... but something to consider.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Straanger
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 3:55pm
| I would try running a new ethanol safe fuel line directly from the fuel tank to the carb inlet, eliminating all of the old fuel lines and give that a shot. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 8:42pm
That can happen with a bad coil wire, bad spark plugs or cables, and also with a distributor cap or rotor that has carbon tracking inside. Try running in total darkness and watch for fireworks.
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Posted By: modirt
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 9:20pm
If a guy wanted to try a new coil and condenser for D15 Series II with 160 engine, is that a part number available from NAPA or some other auto parts store? D15 I'm in charge of is doing something similar.
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 9:26pm
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We have tried our local Carquest, took 3 sets of condensers to get a good one. Went back to AGCO because I got tired of the crap I was getting locally. Our local NAPA hasn’t been any better as a matter of fact they don’t carry much for tractors anymore. I don’t even check with them anymore. Maybe your NAPA store will be better. Rebuilt our series II D15 2 years ago. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |