Driveway or easement?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
Forum Description: anything you want to talk about except politics
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=199471
Printed Date: 05 Oct 2024 at 6:31pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Driveway or easement?
Posted By: Tbone95
Subject: Driveway or easement?
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 10:21am
| Probably varying opinions on this and that’s ok. I’m just curious what y’all think and why. I’ve got a piece of land with a sizable wooded area in the back. I have a person who wants to buy the woods. I am debating whether to sell him a driveway off to the side of my field or to establish an easement. Would have to be surveyed either way so I don’t think upfront cost is an issue. |
Replies:
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 10:36am
|
If 'easement' YOU must maintain roadway 24/7/365 no matter what the weather conditions are and YOU don't get any holidays. If the 'road' is part of HIS 'wooded land', then YOU can sit in nice warm house while HE plows HIS driveway...... Don't know what part of Michigan you're in ,but some areas get LOTS of snowflakes ! Either way, be sure there's a fence/barrier in between. Some uninvited friends of his friends might decide to 'play' on YOUR land with their monster trucks..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 11:03am
|
Trust me, he’s no snowflake. We did get about 18 inches worth of them a couple weeks ago though! And maybe you “have to”, but I see a lot of them that aren’t! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 11:13am
|
yeesh, 1 1/2 ' of snow...you must have got all mine then ! Thank you ! I've only puseh 2-3 INCHES this winter, even now , that's melting. and making it very,very foggy here today. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 11:24am
|
Consult your local township about what they may require if you sell. Does this track of land border another road? Not sure on MI laws, but there may be different responsibilities/requirements if classified as ‘easement’ vs ‘right of way’. ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 11:27am
|
Keep in mind, this guy may be great and all that, but in a few years he may sell to a complete a-hole, or worse yet a solar or wind developer. ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 11:41am
|
from the other side of the fence... 3 decades ago I didn't buy a few acres as it only had a 'right of way ' or 'easement',so if the owner died, I'd have ZERO access to the land. for sure check local laws and 'wording' !!! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 12:29pm
|
State put in a new HIGHWAY and there was no access to some ground BEHIND my Father in Law... Father in Law gave him an EASEMENT at the edge about 200 ft long so the guy could get back to HIS PROPERTY... He takes care of the road or he dont get in... We still cut the grass along the driveway as we always had done..
HIS ground has been sold 3 times in 40 years... Father in law died 10 years ago....The plan just keeps rolling along, no problems. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 1:15pm
|
No other way to get to the land than through the field part. Easements transfer here, it’s illegal to sell landlocked property For sure I’ll be checking with the township, just gathering thoughts. I’m leaning towards driveway, just be done with it. |
Posted By: DanWi
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2024 at 5:53pm
| Don't know if there would be any difference, but there may be a requirement for how wide that access strip has to be. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2024 at 2:12am
This is the key element. Every state has land access laws, and the ownership of land has provisio for access REGARDLESS of wether there is a formal easement, or not, so the sensible action is to set forth the easement in writing, so there's no question. An easement is 'blanket permission' to cross property. An easement can be (and usually is) committed to people OTHER than the person OTHER than the person you sell to... i.e. a utility company... and becomes part of the property, they're durable... once you commit the easement, you cannot recind it, it can only be recinded by whomever it is granted... and usually they don't. The wise choice, if you're selling, is to survey it all out, establish the driveway, and leave the buyer to commit their easements. This first gives them unfettered access to the property, second gives them a path for all easements WITHOUT need for crossing your property, and finally, leaves you free of any liabilities to them. But regardless of HOW you do it, make certain you establish any future easements on the property you SELL... that YOUR property will need. If your electrical power, telephony, etc., passes through that parcel, or you have a fenceline access or pasture, or flowage, that needs to be committed to the property by you before you sell. Is there any place on YOUR property where you do any aerial spraying, or other low flight? If so YOU need to include in the sale an Avigation Easement... which is an easement that restricts elevation of anything which would restrict approach, departure, or maneuvering. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Tbone95 wrote:Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2024 at 6:52am
|
Will be surveyed this year sometime assuming I can rub a couple coins together. The total amount of land I own at the location is 40 acres. The portion to be sold I’d estimate to be about 15, plus whatever I do with the driveway. The driveway would be on the north side a bit less than 1/4 mile long. There’s a hunting property behind that with a private driveway, would be great if we could strike some sort of deal with those guys but highly doubtful. The good news is that electrical already goes down that drive. The property doesn’t touch anything else I own, no buildings, no fence, no water, no aerial spraying…. Does have a power line running through it. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2024 at 7:21am
|
What Jay says about easements, is not the way it is in New York State. I'm sure laws vary by state. In New York, an easement can be given for several different reasons. One of my neighbors leases some wooded land, behind his tillable land, for hunting. The hunting club that leases has use of the easement certain times of the year, for the sole purpose of accessing the land. Power lines, gas lines, internet providers, phone companies and highways commonly have easements and their easements only provide access. No maintenance is required by the landowner, but, in some cases, you must allow the person/company that has the easement to do maintenance (at no expense to the landowner). If you allow an easement, you own the land and pay taxes on the land, but often (especially in the case of utilities) the easement owner is responsible for the taxes on poles, wires, pipelines, etc. on the easement. Easements are a permanent addendum to your deed and can only be removed by the easement holder asking that the easement be removed (often done when an unused road is "abandoned"). Check with an attorney to see what protects your interests best.
|
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2024 at 7:24am
YEP! |
Posted By: iowallis
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2024 at 11:20am
|
If you go the easement route, does the guy plan on using it for hunting only? Or plan on building a house/shop/hunting lodge/whatever back there. Are you okay with it if he does? May want to check into having it be an "agricultural use only" or "recreational use only" type easement if you are not interested in having the type of traffic (regularly) that a residence has instead of what a hunting ground (infrequent) traffic would have.
|
Posted By: Dirt Farmer
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 12:45am
| Maybe reading into this but were you contemplating selling some acreage before this person inquired. If not, why bother selling, good first impression today but wait till all their friends show up at all hours to go 4 wheeling and partying or bringing out the tannerite. Trees and fences make great neighbors. |
Posted By: thendrix
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 6:33am
|
After reading through the responses, I believe if I wanted to sell the acreage I would sell a driveway too if it's not too inconvenient. That way you're not responsible for their access and their property line is established. Can't argue it if something on your land gets destroyed. If a driveway doesn't suit you I wouldn't sell if I didn't have to ------------- "Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 7:24am
Yes, I was. I could really use some $$$ and I’ll never get use of this land. Too sandy to bother cleaning, timber isn’t great and I’d hate to see that happen anyway. The concerns about partying and ripping around with quads and monster trucks are perhaps a common problem, but I would be beyond immensely surprised if that happened. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 7:25am
Ya Tyler, that’s where I’m leaning. Thanks. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 7:40am
|
Maybe the guy you're thinking of selling is 'OK' but 3 months later, he has to sell and THAT new guy is a huge jerk.....sets up a meth plant,patries til next day, loud music,.. A lot depends on how far away the 'land for sale' is from your house and your neighbours is. Heck, if you need the coins or forced to sell, you roll the dice. Just want you to have 'open eyes' before you sign on the dotted line ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 8:25am
Haha, well yeah, it’s over 1/2 mile away, I’ve got them closer than that already! |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2024 at 1:07pm
|
Here in Calif the selling of the road is generally not allowed, as planners/building code people have a problem with "FLAG LOTS". Why I don't know why, but ran into it when settling my parents estate and dividing land. I think it makes sense to sell the land under the access road. Probably part of the reason the "woke" in charge in government here don't like it. It makes sense. As was stated easements are treated different in different place. Here all maintenance of the road on the easement is the easement owner's responsibility.
|
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 8:21am
To be honest Ray, I don’t really follow what you’re saying….but to clarify, there currently is no road or driveway to the wooded area in back, one would just drive across the field. Whatever I would call it, it would be along the north border. |
Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 8:56am
Tbone, I think what Ray is implying is, some areas in this country any type of ‘rural development’, ‘urban sprawl’, etc., is tightly controlled by township boards, village planners, civil engineers, and so on. The term ‘Master Plan’ is what many of these governmental agencies stealthy operate under. The urban sprawl believe or not is tightly controlled as for what will be allowed to be constructed in certain areas, if that development is too much in conflict of what those behind the scenes want to see. Is your region under the control of these stealthy operatives? ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 9:08am
I am going to guess that T-bone is WAY TO RURAL to worry about the "rules and regulations".. but worth checking into locally.Flag lots are plots of land named for their resemblance to a flagpole, with a long, slender strip (typically just a driveway) extending from the street up to a rectangular main section. The main part of the lot is surrounded by neighbors on all sides, with no street frontage (beyond the driveway), which can be a positive or a negative depending on your preferences. Flag lots are frequently considered undesirable by homebuyers — and thus, they are often cheaper than more standard-shaped lots.Cons of a flag lotThere are disadvantages to flag lots as well, including:
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 9:30am
Thanks! Yeah, nearest urban sprawl……, hmmm…100+ miles I’d guess. What I’ve got laid out would qualify. But picture a cluster of flags. Mine would be a corporate logo, the parcel east of me would be Old Glory towering high above me! |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 9:37am
|
Probably from the Street, it looks like he has a driveway at the edge of a FIELD.. Might give the impression that HE owns the field or YOU own the field.. nobody cares... The PROBLEM comes in if you sell a PLOT at the street next to the driveway.. The NEW GUY builds a house 10 ft from the OLD driveway.. Now the OLD guy has the FLAG POLE. City, Fire Dept, Cops... probably many dont like the "hidden land" .... not your problem, buy that is why many frown on it. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 9:41am
|
where I am ,can't have 'flagpole' lots as city say must have 100' frontage,though with enough coins donated, you can have that reduced...... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 9:50am
Even though our little town has no zoning, there are state "setback" laws that stipulate how close any building can be to a property line. Getting back to the original topic, I don't think there is a blanket best answer. There are pros and cons to both options; easement or actually selling a strip of property for access. Something to keep in mind is that whatever you decide is a forever deal. Even though the guy you are dealing with may be respectful, down the road, it could be a problem for your or his decedents or whomever either property is transferred to. That's why I advise using an attorney, who may foresee legal or other problems in the future.
|
Posted By: AllisFreak MN
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 11:18am
|
Personally I would never sell land I already own until I absolutely have to. They quit making more of it a long time ago. Just my opinion though. ------------- '49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2 |
Posted By: thendrix
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 11:39am
|
I've seen an easement "agreement" go bad with some former neighbors. Neighbor A bought property at the road. Neighbor A's property line is the center of the driveway for neighbor B. When neighbor B bought, what I would consider, a flag pole lot, he owned to the center of the driveway. Neighbor A agreed to a joint use of the split driveway. The problem came when neighbor A built a shop behind his house for his tree service equipment. He used the half owned driveway for access and did some damage to it coming in and out constantly with heavy equipment and trucks. The problem neighbor B ran into is there was an old road bed from the road to his property but it needed a fair amount of repair to be usable hence the easement in the first place. Neighbor B went to the county to complain about the wear and tear on the driveway from neighbor A and they told him "since you have alternate access we can't make him fix the driveway." Basically they fixed the driveway as needed until they were fed up and moved. Neighbor A had no problem with being an ass but neighbor B wasn't exactly cordial when bringing up the damage to the driveway either. Just a bad situation that lasted several years. I'd bet if both parties had stepped off their high horse it could've been a lot better. ------------- "Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 12:01pm
Useless to me though, and an asset I can liquidate to address other needs, without selling something that generates annual income. Yah, there’s potentially future value, but I have to weigh it out. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 12:14pm
|
'potential future value' only counts if YOU live into that future...... say you get $10K today, future value ,in 10 years ,is $12K you've had $10K to play with for 10 years....might be worth more than the extra 2K in 'future bucks' ? lotta scenarios to look at, for sure. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 7:49pm
 Much more of that goes on  than we non connected people want to think about.  I think others cleared the flag lot term up. But my main thing was if you think you want to sell the access rather than a easement do it now before your governor spends any more time with mine giving yours even dumber ideas. Very interesting how bad ideas move from place to place. In the mid 80's children of my grandfather's half-brother hunted my mom and a uncle up. They from Ontario Canada to us in California. Some of what they were fighting and sounded crazy has come here as well as bad idea from here going there. If crazy people run things they look everywhere for more crazy ideas. So in my mind if you sell any, include the access on land they own not on a easement on land you own. Then you should have much less liability. But since most legislators where attorneys before getting elected, all bills are written to be a full employment act for lawyers.
|
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2024 at 7:56pm
|
There's another thing that happens that probably wouldn't happen here, but still something to be aware of: Prescriptive right. This is when a circumstance of some access or area use occurs which is NOT addressed in any formal easement, but it is maintained that way for a certain amount of time after which, state statute identifies that the circumstance is now a de-facto easement. How does this happen? Well, it happens many ways. The MOST COMMON circumstance of Prescriptive Right starts with something like a natural disaster... tornado, flood, etc. that takes out a bridge, or a power line. For recovery, a temporary path is utilized to restore access, power, etc... but a decade or so later, the temporary path is still being utilized and maintained. Even IF the original problem was resolved, if the temporary access isn't vacated and returned to it's original place, the path BECOMES a permanent easment By Prescriptive Right. So let's say the land is sold, and no defined easement is established for access... and the property owner decides to make his access path from some undesirable place, through an undesireable path, to his property... and continues to do so for longer than the state statute applies (usually 10-15yrs)... That pathway is now essentially HIS, because prescriptive right has made a de-facto easement through parts of your property that now, you cannot change. I faced the circumstance of a prescriptive right across my former property where the utility company had placed a 'temporary' 7500v utility line right through the center of my lot, with one leg about 5 feet above the peak of my garage roof. The PLATTED utility easement was located along the railway at the back of my property. It had been moved to the center when the railway had to remedy an old crossing in the back, and they never moved the lines back to original placement. I was coming up on the statutory limit, and had to demand that the line get moved. They said 'no', I pulled the records and sent them another registered letter advising that they did not have prescriptive right, and that if they did not have it removed by a set time, on a set date, that I would have no choice but to remove it for them. They called to "warn me" not to do that, because it was 'dangerous'. I advised that the state statute on temporary easement termination was up to the landowner to enforce, but likewise, the responsibility of the safety of their lines was wholly theirs, hence, my chainsaw blade was sharp, and my lawyer, the sheriff, and the fire department would be all invited. Their lawyer called me back and promised to send me a letter identifying that they would discontinue the line's path PRIOR to expiration of the statute, please do not cut the poles. Two days later, they moved the line back to the back of the property. Some things are just so unreasonably tricky... ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 2:35pm
|
Around here if a property is sold it has to have road access and a house number. I believe it has to be at least 20 feet. If it's land locked it can't be sold . |
Posted By: MNLonnie
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2024 at 7:46pm
|
I'm guessing all states vary but here my easement is on my deed so matter who buys the property I will always have the easement to mine and as far as keeping an easement open that's not thing. You can't block it on purpose but you sure don't have to maintain it. ------------- Waukesha B, B, IB, G, styled WF, D15, 615 backhoe, 2-Oliver OC3's, 4 Ford Model T's, 3 Model A Fords, AV8 Coupe, AV8 Roadster, 1933 Ford Wrecker |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 6:11am
It's, basically, the same in New York. An easement is just the right to access the property, usually for a specific intended purpose, which is outlined in the language of the easement, on the deed. An example is that our local volunteer fire department has an easement on one of my properties solely for the access of a water supply. I have no responsibility, other than keeping it open for them. I make sure the snow is removed, but that is strictly voluntary on my part.
|
Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 6:54am
|
Okay, I've got a couple questions. With an easement you still have to pay the property taxes on that ground, correct? Also, with an easement, wouldn't you still be responsible for the liability insurance on it? Meaning if someone gets hurt or killed on your property (the easement) could you be held liable? Just some food for thought. ------------- Looking at the past to see the future. '53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it! |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 7:45am
|
That would be my read on it |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 7:48am
Yes, I pay property taxes on all easements that I own, and there are several. In addition to the fire department easement I spoke of earlier, the electric utility has an easement on every parcel. I don't have any, but there are easements for gas lines. On the parcels that have a county or town road, there are easements. I own and pay taxes to the center of the road. (In NY State, NYSDOT owns most state roads/highways, but most county and local roads are easements.) Liability is strictly about something you are responsible for or negligent about. If I am responsible for something that causes damage or injury to someone or their property, I have liability. If the propery owner is responsible or negligent, they are responsible, easement or no easement. A few years ago, a property owner in northern NY placed a cable across a trail on his property that was frequented by ATV's, to keep them from using the area. There was no easement, right-of-way or permission to use the trail. A guy who didn't know it was there, hit the cable, was ejected and suffered life threatening (and permanently disabling) injuries. Not only was the property owner held liable, but he was also charged criminally. |