Calling the Juicetricians,,,,,!
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Topic: Calling the Juicetricians,,,,,!
Posted By: desertjoe
Subject: Calling the Juicetricians,,,,,!
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 9:27am
I was just watching an ad on TV that sounds interesting,,,, NOW, I do NOT claim to be a juicetrician nor do I understand enough about KW's or any of that stuff,,,,BUT ,,I DO KNOW there ARE some Experts here that DO,,,!! ![Clap Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) It seems that the great inventor hisself ,,, Elon Musk,,,,,, has started offering a product to the public that cleans and and stabilizes the excess ineffeciences and noise on the sine wave of the electricity supplied by the power companies,,thereby reducing your cost at home,,,,Don't have an idee what cost of the gadget is but is kinda interesting,,,? Now,,please no cat calling or slanders,,,,,,, ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ,,I'm just trying to help. ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Replies:
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 10:34am
yeah.. it's called a capacitor !
here's a link, 'everyone's hawking' them today..... https://www.temu.com/ca/1-6pcs-power-saver-household-energy-saver-electricity-saving-box-household-office-market-device-electric-smart-us-plug-90v-250v-30kw-white-g-601099526036300.html?top_gallery_url=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.kwcdn.com%2Fproduct%2F1e14dde1dca%2F326030bd-c5e6-4795-9a38-8dd6ea6d0736_800x800.png&spec_gallery_id=2028895265&refer_page_sn=10009&refer_source=0&freesia_scene=2&_oak_freesia_scene=2&_oak_rec_ext_1=NjI5&_oak_gallery_order=1536800607%2C194652354%2C366015731%2C1396972737%2C942512217&search_key=energy%20saver%20devices&refer_page_el_sn=200049&_x_sessn_id=vhnrfhig8b&refer_page_name=search_result&refer_page_id=10009_1704645276299_licu0oeypb" rel="nofollow - https://www.temu.com/ca/1-6pcs-power-saver-household-energy-saver-electricity-saving-box-household-office-market-device-electric-smart-us-plug-90v-250v-30kw-white-g-601099526036300.html?top_gallery_url=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.kwcdn.com%2Fproduct%2F1e14dde1dca%2F326030bd-c5e6-4795-9a38-8dd6ea6d0736_800x800.png&spec_gallery_id=2028895265&refer_page_sn=10009&refer_source=0&freesia_scene=2&_oak_freesia_scene=2&_oak_rec_ext_1=NjI5&_oak_gallery_order=1536800607%2C194652354%2C366015731%2C1396972737%2C942512217&search_key=energy%20saver%20devices&refer_page_el_sn=200049&_x_sessn_id=vhnrfhig8b&refer_page_name=search_result&refer_page_id=10009_1704645276299_licu0oeypb
It's a 'feel good' scam, well lower case 'scam'.....
Think about it IF it really,really ACTUALLY did 'save energy', then the guv would mandate they be installed everywhere. Dang now that I typed that ..ooopsy CA newsome will make it LAW... sorry...
Jay
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 12:44pm
They sell them in the magazines... On the same page as the carburetors that were OUTLAWED by Chevrolet... that got 100 MPG !!! ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 4:30pm
AHA,,,,!! SO,,you already know about that one,,,Huh,,Steve,,,?? ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
Are you refering to the famous "POGUE CARBURATOR",,,,,,Steve,,,,,,,,? I actually built one from a piece of 2" pipe that we welded inside a piece of 3" pipe as a heat exchanger using the hot water from the engine to boil the fuel in a atomizing atmosphere,,,,, The "Mule" was a 1961 Chevy Trk with a 261 straight six but it had issues with maintaining a good idle,,and wound up shelving the project due to not being able to control the temp of the heat exchanger,,,consequently the MPG would swing from 23 MPG to 56 MPG,,,,,
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 4:47pm
I added a 'riser' between carb /intake on one of my '67 stangs..once 'tweaked' it actually did improve MPG... Also had a fan in the intake to 'swirl' the incoming air sigh, I miss the good old dayze.....when we COULD tinker with OUR cars...
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 5:23pm
Sounds like Joe needs the spare turbo encabulator I have down at the barn...![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag?si=DNIPeGF2ATsFLo7K" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag?si=DNIPeGF2ATsFLo7K
------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 9:54pm
Dave,,you devil,,you,,,!! I have never heard so many $100 college words spoken in a 5 minute dissatation,,,CHIT,,,I thought my Websters was positively gonna burn up from overwork in trying to decipher all them $100 college words,,,,,,,,,!!! ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2024 at 11:47pm
WOW - miss all them JC Whitney devices that saved so much gas you had to drain some from your tank after driving 100 miles , mine turbocharger impellers to place under carb , the air inductions to go into exhaust manifolds , vapor injectors like used on the P51 Mustang , and the 100 other examples .
------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 10:06am
Coke-in-MN wrote:
WOW - miss all them JC Whitney devices that saved so much gas you had to drain some from your tank after driving 100 miles , mine turbocharger impellers to place under carb , the air inductions to go into exhaust manifolds , vapor injectors like used on the P51 Mustang , and the 100 other examples . |
Yup, same here. I grew up hearing all of those stories about how someones uncle's brother's cousin's father-in-law had invented a magic carburetor that got some fantastic mileage and how the evil oil companies bought up their patents, etc. etc.
I embarked on a 20+ year journey in search of this magical technology. The patents for the Pogue Carburetor are readily available online, also the Fish carburetor (really just a racing carb). I studied Smokey Yunick's Hot Vapor Engine, lean-burn engines, stratified charge systems, and anything else I could get my hands on.
A dear friend of mine told me once that his father had purchased a brand new full-size pickup back in the 1960's that got something like 80 mpg until he told the dealer about it and they said he wasn't supposed to have gotten that carburetor and took it away and replaced it with a regular unit that only got 15 mpg. I expressed my doubts about that, which only resulted in hurting his feelings; I wish I had just nodded, smiled, and kept my mouth shut. We are still friends, but magic carburetors are a taboo subject between us.
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 1:28pm
Well,,I know it is fun to poke Fun at those that tend to believe in those things but ,,,HEY,,,,,! does anyone NOT believe that it is possible to attain those kinds of MPG numbers,,,??
"IF" it was beneficial to the Guvment,,It would happen almost overnight,,,,,,,, The original POGUE design is so friggin simple,and if todays electronic Ecm's, controllers ect, ect were applied to that simple design way back then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 5:52pm
A gallon of gas has a given BTU rating.. That will make a specific horse power... You can push a 7000 pound pickup with a FLAT nose at 60 MPH and it takes a SPECIFIC HP... You can push a 2500 pound car with a POINTED nose at 60 MPH down the road and it takes a SPECIFIC HP, but much LESS than the truck.. You can dump the gas thru a carburetor, trickle it with a spoon, spray it with a bottle or inject it thru the new INJECTOR system.... You still need that SPECIFIC HP which is based on the BTU rating which is FIXED... YES, injectors are slightly more EFFICIENT than a slobbering old carb, but only by maybe 10%.... not 1000%....
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 5:59pm
Newer trucks normally use smaller engines... IF you have a big V8 that puts out 400 HP at 5000 RPM... and your running down the road at 3000 RPM, you might be putting out 250 HP... If it only takes 75 HP to maintain that speed, then your wasting gas... A small 6 cylinder that puts out 150 HP at 5000 RPM... and 80 HP at 3000 RPM would use less gas while cruzeing.. but you got no backup for ACCELERATION... Another way to get the V8 mileage up is to put in OVERDRIVE and get the engine speed to drop to 2000 RPM and 150 HP ...... MPG goes up because your ENGINE SPEED was reduced and less gas used............. has nothing to do with the carburetor which is just mixing air / gas for a specific fuel ratio.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 6:10pm
I had a vacuum gauge in my '67 Mustang, well one of the 3.... .. IF I lightly press on the gas pedal to keep HIGH vacuum, I got great MPG. Naturally it took forever to get up to speed..but great MPG ! I also played around with various jets on the carb and it was a 'balancing act'. You can either have great POWER or ECONOMY, but never ,ever have BOTH. 'they' can use 20 speed autotrannies,CVTs or electric motors to get a better compromise.
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 6:14pm
I had a 1978 CAMARO Z28 that cruized down the road at 60 MPH at 3000 RPM engine speed.... I have a 2013 F150 that cruizes down the road at 60 MPH at 1400 RPM.... and gets MUCH BETTER MILEAGE !
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 6:55pm
Above atmospheric intake air boosting coupled with exhaust stream monitoring to maintain the near perfect 14.7:1 F/A ratio yields very strong power gains by constantly optimizing the fuel charge and burn. Friction reduction through lighter parts helps greatly also. As Steve stated fuels have relatively "fixed" BTU content, but if you can burn more fuel and maintain the A/F ratio without running overly rich, you will have much greater power output.
All that said; with the goal to reduce fuel consumption for a cruise idle speed, the best solution I see is through efficiency of operation and reduction of friction. Low rolling resistance tires, lessened wheel end drag, driveline friction reduction, and efficient ancillary items incorporated onto the engine that rob output power. Little things such as the now common serpentine belt drive is more efficient than Vee belt drive for the accessories is yet another example of increased efficiency of operation. Lighter weight parts yet another. Electric drive as opposed to direct mechanical drive is also a consideration.
A transmission design to keep the engine operating within it's optimal power band is another design based on efficiency. Eight forward speeds ensure better control of this than three or four speeds can. A multi speed transmission coupled with a low gear ratio, (numerically) causing the transmission to operate at a less overdriven ratio is more efficient than a high overdriven ratio.
All this costs money to develop and package. Then comes marketing and getting the technology sold and paid for. The aftermarket is great for this as doesn't have the constraints the OEM's have to stifle creativity to achieve this goal.
Now to put all this into a package pleasing to the eye that will sell to the public.....
------------- A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 7:12pm
steve(ill) wrote:
I had a 1978 CAMARO Z28 that cruized down the road at 60 MPH at 3000 RPM engine speed.... I have a 2013 F150 that cruizes down the road at 60 MPH at 1400 RPM.... and gets MUCH BETTER MILEAGE ! | That Z28 will drastically increase the chances of getting laid, than a grocery getter 150.
------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 7:24pm
desertjoe wrote:
... The original POGUE design is so friggin simple,and if todays electronic Ecm's, controllers ect, ect were applied to that simple design way back then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?
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The Pogue carburetor worked by heating the fuel, which helped to burn the heavier fractions in the hydrocarbon soup mix (there can frequently be over 100 different hydrocarbons in any given gallon of gasoline). Even then, it didn't do anything magical.
Trouble is, modern refinery methods don't leave near as many heavy fractions in the gasoline, so even if you built your very own Pogue carburetor it wouldn't function very well with the new gasoline.
If auto engineers could ignore the emissions rules they might squeeze another 10% fuel economy with modern engine controls but that's about it.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 11:09pm
So would a 68 Fastback Barracuda with a fold down back seat and trunk closing panel. Still have the car, and the girl who has been my wife of 47 years.
------------- A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 11:52pm
HP and Cubes . add RPM and TORQUE = gallons used Odd in 2 trucks I have one a old White with a 400 cu in 6 cylinder and 420 ft lbs torque at 3200 RPM Other 427 GMC which develops power in the 4500 RMP range . White has 5x4 transmission with 4 high being .83 Overdrive GMC is RT 613 direct White seems to have more torque at low speeds but mid range 35 to 50 GMC holds move moving power but RPM is topped Empty White will do over 85 MPH and still be at lower RPM , GMC tops out at 65 or so and sounds like it's wound tight . Rear axle ratio on White is 6.38 and GMC 7.62 Gas mileage of White is 4 and GMC 3 Other difference White weighs 17,400 and can carry 16 Tons +. GMC is 19,200 and 14 ton is max the way the box design on 14' each box is set up. Seems long stroke 6 cyl engine is more efficient than high RPM v8
------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 11:58pm
Then on juice , seems there just as many snake oil ideas out there from motor generators that produce excess electric to run the motor turning generator and having left over electric to run other motors doing other work , once initial outside power is shut off from getting everything spinning . Now capacitors can balance loads on legs of power and in some cases are used just for that but when a evolution comes up where FREE POWER is left over after using ?
------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 12:38am
Okay, so there's lots of misnomers about fuel efficiency.
There is NO "MAGIC" ANYTHING...
The Pogue and Fish and whatever carbeurators... the 'turbine' atomizers, the risers, the plenum coolers and heaters...
IF one wants to see the first step of efficiency, the answer is very simple:
Liquid Gasoline Doesn't Burn. Liquid NOTHING burns... because if it's liquid, it cannot MIX with air... period. When the gasoline engine runs, liquid droplets go in the intake, through the chamber, and out the exhaust. Doesn't matter if it's carb'd or injected, it's gonna happen. Injection doesn't do as much, partially because of how it sprays, but mostly because it is WELL METERED, and added close to the PORT, rather than bounced down the plenum tubing, cooled by all that long tuned surface.
Remeber how V8 engines had an exhaust bypass passage from one side of the intake to the other? That provided heat under the carb base, to help warm up the carb, the bowl, the fuel, and the air, so that it wanted to evaporate.
Now, if one wants to prove it, all that's needed, is to convert it to PROPANE, because propane evaporates at such a low temperature, that there's no liquid fuel present ANYWHERE.
Ever wonder why propane engines have the choke disconnected? The choke's function is to provide enrichment for cold running. Why do whe do that? Well, because a good chunk'a that fuel going in, goes right out the tail pipe 'till she's warm... yep, it's literally dumped out as wasted. Once the cylinders start warming up, and the crossover starts warming up (the heat riser's job is to help persuede exhaust heat to flow from one side to the other... at least 'till it's stuck... and the crossover passage is all plugged up with carbon soot from unburned fuel (which makes sense because when the heat riser is closed, the engine is cold, the enrichment being dumped through the chambers goes out the port, through the bypass, under the carb, and cakes up there 'till it just won't flow anymore...
As others already noted, there's a whole gamut of things that determine fuel efficiency.
The very FIRST thing we can do to save fuel, is get our foot out'a the carb.
The NEXT thing, is shed the DRAG. Eliminate EVERYTHING heavy... take the Thule Box off the roof, get the bicycle rack out of the windstream. Take the tires up to their max rated pressure, nix the jack, the spare, the rear seats... remove the windshield wipers, cut off the radio antenna... move the license plate inside, to the dashboard and trunk lid. take a roll of TYVEK tape and tape all the body seams. Roll the windows down when you stop, so you can climb out... roll 'em up when you climb back in.
Go hardcore- yank the stock tires and wheels. Get narrower wheels, run a narrower tire, increase the diameter about 15%, and use flat covers on both the front and back side of the wheels (back being, as far as you can, and still have brakes, right? Use tires that can go to very high pressures, and charge them to those pressures with ARGON... My bicycle tires are 7/8" wide, running 160psi...
Eliminate the air conditioning compressor, and since it's not there, nix the A-coil... the blower fan, and all the controls. Ditch the stereo, the outside rear view mirrors, the carpet, headliner, passenger seat too (they can sit on the floor, or better yet, to conserve weight, make them walk... You don't need that hood ornament. Cover up the grille, let the engine take it's cooling from under the bumper.
install an air dam and side skirts, to cut down on turbulence UNDER the car... better yet, install belly-pans so that airflow beneath the car can't get tangled up in stuff like wires, plumbing, suspension parts, etc...
Go hardcore... remove the automatic transmission... replace it with a manual, but don't use a constant-mesh or synchromesh transmission. Use lightweight hydraulic fluid instead of gear oil, and aluminum casing and cover, so that it sheds heat by convection. Reduce the fuel tank size by at least half. Strip the driver's seat down to absolute minmum, or replace it with a lightweight racing seat. You won't need the roll cage or helmet though, and no need for a 3 or 5 point harness...
Empty and nix the glovebox. Tape your registration and proof of insurance to (whats left of) the dashboard in a ziplock baggie.
Eliminate the primary service brakes... get those disks and drums out'a there, just one brake, on the driveshaft, with LOTS of excess travel in the external drum, so there's NO drag...
When your 4600lb car is only 1100lbs, your 215mm tire/wheel width becomes 50mm, and there's nothing for the wind to grab, you'll get really good economy.
you can go one step further by going to a much smaller engine, using bottled gas (liquid propane) with an ordinary vaporizer/regulator... perhaps go to a turbocharged 3-cylinder diesel engine, fitted with spark plugs instead...
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 12:57am
But back to Joe's original post:
The power coming from your utility company, is a SINE WAVE.... if it came from a mechanical generator (and basically ALL of it is)... then there's no 'non-sinusoid' aspect to it that can be magically filtered out by a capacitor, or an inductor.
Now, aside from that bullchip, there's people who think that the 'transformer' is some incredible consumer of power... they're so convinced that some bozos moved legislation to 'outlaw' transformer-based 'linear' power supplies and force 'switch-mode power supplies' to take their place. In reality, an SMPS is not significantly more efficient (a thermograph picture illustrates this) and one of the reasons why, is that the SMPS uses a high frequency oscillator (which generates waste heat) to alternate DC current at high frequency through the primary winding of... yes... a TRANSFORMER... to provide a voltage-to-current trade off... (even when there's no load, the SMPS has to run)... and finally, the SMPS is loaded full of components that required a significant amount of pollution to create, and when they fail (and they do... miserably) those components go to the Great Pile of the County... (landfill) because there's just nothing in there economically practical to extract.
And that transformer had two windings (a primary, and a secondary) of copper wire... and a laminated steel core... not hard to recycle that, if it failed (and they tended to run for decades)...
It's just another demonstration of idiots pushing totalitarian acts forcing false economy upon us. Add it to the imbacile's proud list.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 7:27am
Hay Dave, would you like some nice 12v, 25a toroid transformers ?? BNIB ! I thought I'd make an old skool power supply with them..... One big push to SMPS is it's was EASY to make low weight power supplies that are 'universal'..plug them in anywhere in the world. NO extra switches for 120 /240 ! I still like my Lincoln AC-225-S welder...a BIG ,heavy transformer ! Even have a spare,here, somewhere....
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 11:21am
DaveKamp wrote:
Okay, so there's lots of misnomers about fuel efficiency.
There is NO "MAGIC" ANYTHING...
The Pogue and Fish and whatever carbeurators... the 'turbine' atomizers, the risers, the plenum coolers and heaters...
Now, if one wants to prove it, all that's needed, is to convert it to PROPANE, because propane evaporates at such a low temperature, that there's no liquid fuel present ANYWHERE. ... |
Yup. And I wanted so very much to find that magical carburetor, because it just HAD to be true, ya know; imagine my disappointment as it gradually dawned on me that those old wives tales were just exactly that.
Even propane, which has some wonderful properties, doesn't do anything spectacular due to its lower specific energy content.
Sometimes enlightenment can be so disillusioning.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 2:08pm
I seen it on TV and then reinforced on youtube along with the internet so has to be true as there are so many corroborating stories and portrayal of the same thing by different parties with no affiliation to one another.
After all it is human nature to be honest, compassionate, and caring for fellow man with no intent of swindle, fraud, cheat, deprive, etc.
Yeah, that's the way I see it too.
------------- A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 7:32pm
Ya know what Abe Lincoln said..... "Dont believe everything you read on the internet".. ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 4:37am
OH Yeah,,,,???,,,,,OH Yeah,,,,!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,I NEVER said that I actually believed what I was saying,,,as there is just one tiny link remaining to be discovered in order for the final product to be delivered,,,,,and it will be a "bombshell",,,(I watch Fox News too) ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
Ya see,,,the engineers were thinking on how to extract maximum efficiency from gasoline by "pressuring up" the incoming fuel charge with the advent of Higher pressure Fuel pumps and injectors,,,,,, next discovery,,,,,? HMMmmmmm? ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 7:27am
"After all it is human nature to be honest, compassionate, and
caring for fellow man with no intent of swindle, fraud, cheat, deprive,
etc."...
Yep, exactly...
It is human nature for us, as optimists, to fall prey to 'Confirmation Bias'.
Sure, Jay- I haven't met a toroidal transformer I didn't like... ;-) We're coming up on the peak of the 11-year sunspot cycle, and I've got a couple 6-meter radios that need to be ready...
Les said: " Even propane, which has some wonderful properties, doesn't do anything spectacular due to its lower specific energy content."
Yes, without 'atmospheric compensation', that lower S.E. puts propane at a lower immediate equivalency... and it also makes for some pretty easy flooding... which lots of people don't get... because they think 'flooding' is about 'liquid'... when it's not... it's about lack of sufficient oxygen.
The 'Miracle Carb' general theme is that the modern vehicle carbeurator (prior to the advent of EFI) simply wasn't doing sufficient 'evaporation'... and of course, they were right... NO carbeurator (and no EFI system) does a very effective job of turning liquid droplets into vapor, then mixing it with air. They may create a proper RATIO of liquid fuel to a given volume of airflow, and it may INTRODUCE that liquid, but they're leaving it up to some incredibly variable physics to go from a droplet, to an evaporated state, and again, to turn it into a combustible mixture.
The 3 common themes that show up for the 'miracle' carb, and all the other gadgets in magazines and JC Whit type catalogs... is
- 1) Add heat to evaporate the fuel...
- 2) Tumble the charge to MIX it with air.
Now add that to the gadgets whose purpose is to Improve Power:
- 3) cool the charge to increase density... - 4) Reduce restriction to increase flow
See any problems there?
Like... you can't apply heat, to cool something down...
and
...you can't increase turbulence while reducing flow restriction.
It's like fighting for peace, screwing for virginity, and hiring more government employees to reduce government spending...
While I'm bashing away at 'snake oil products'...
Putting a magnet on your fuel line to 'improve performance' WORKS... but it's better to put that magnet on the fuel TANK... because when there's metal shavings and rust debris in your fuel tank, it fouls up the path, gets in to the pump, and plugs up the carb. It doesn't do anything 'magical' to the molecules in that fuel, it just helps keep the steel fragments, iron dust, and stray nuts and bolts down there from winding up plugging the works. By the way, nuts and bolts in the fuel tank help knock all the crud loose, but why are there steel fraggies and iron dust in there? Yeah, if you leave the cap off and live along the railroad, I can understand the iron dust...
Carbeurator spacers. So, the VOLUME of the intake runners and plenum have a resonant frequency... and when the engine runs, air pulses interact with that resonance, and the result is a change in airflow property. Depending on the differences in frequencies, the flow properties can change. IF you shorten up the plenum really, really short, the resonance goes to such a high frequency that the engine's pulses NEVER interact, so you get the flattest response.
(If you wanna try this in a human experiment, pull the mouthpiece off your trumpet, trombone, or tuba and play Reville.) Unfortunately, making an infinitely short intake path does not yield a good running engine, because the resonance of that path, when it's not set incorrectly, helps the airflow maintain a stable procession inward. Likewise, having a too-short exhaust path does same, which is why when you run an engine with no exhaust manifold, it doesn't run well at all.
And now we circle back to the 'miracle products'...
There ain't no 'miracle', aside from the ability of a marketer to exploit the ignorance and optimism of humanity.
Now, back to the 'capacitor' product...
AC Power transmission operates at a frequency. IN the US, MOST of it is at 60hz. Conveniently, that's 60 times a second, which means we can compare that to a clock, and we can use it AS a clock... which isn't something we could do at say... 50hz (which most of the rest of the world uses) or 25hz... which is what some of the earliest AC used.
A 60hz transformer requires a certain amount of iron in order to work well at THAT FREQUENCY. If you want a transformer to work well at 25 hz, you need SIGNIFICANTLY MORE IRON... When you're working on an AIRCRAFT AC power system, you won't hear that 60-cycle buzz, you'll hear a 400-cycle WHINE... because they run at 400hz. At 400hz, it takes a SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER transformer (and that's good, because aircraft prefer LIGHTER stuff).
Take a piece of wire, and measure it with a meter, and you'll find that it has resistance. Make that wire longer, it has more resistance. When you flow current through it, that current becomes a magnetic field, hence, the wire becomes an ELECTROMAGNET
When you take a wire, and stretch it across a hundred miles, that wire becomes not only a long resistor, it also becomes something called a CAPACITOR... the dielectric being the air between the wire, and the ground. The dielectric charges up, and discharges, just like a battery... and it takes a little power (not much) to do that. The air doesn't WANT to do it, but it HAS to, and that warms it up a little tiny bit (and it makes your hair stand up). The fact that the air is a load, is called CAPACITIVE REACTANCE.
NOW...When you pass current through the wire, it's electromagnetic field intrudes upon everything around it... the earth, the support structures, nearby buildings, the fillings in your teeth, and the metal plate in my foot.
All those other things IN that field, don't WANT to be upset with an alternating magnetic field, but they are... and they warm up a little (not much), but this becomes part of that transmission wire's 'LOAD'. Now, it ain't much load, so there isn't a huge loss, but the added DENSITY has an impact on current flow through that wire (just like a long plenum). This is called INDUCTIVE REACTANCE.
The CAPACITIVE REACTANCE of that wire, and the INDUCTIVE REACTANCE of the wire are awarded the mathematical labels Xc and Lc, respectively.
The resistance is called "R".
Because the capacitive reactance and inductive reactance both vary with FREQUENCY, and they do it in the OPPOSITE WAY, there's a point in any circuit where Capacitive Reactance and Inductive Reactance become equal. This is called RESONANCE... The 'Frequency of Operation', or 'Fo'. Some call it 'frequency of oscillation', which is oftentimes how it's used, so no worry there.
When you add up the values of Capacitive and Inductive Reactance, and add in RESISTANCE (which doesn't change with frequency)... you have IMPEDANCE... which we identify as 'Z'.
Fo = Xc=XL
If you speak math, you'll recognize this:
Z = Xc + Xl + R
Impedance is the sum of capacitive reactance, inductive reactance, and resistance.
What does this all have to do with overhead wires and 'magic stuff'...
Well, if you have a plenum tube that doesn't RING at the frequency that makes the engine run well, you either put something IN the plenum to REDUCE it's internal volume, or you ADD to the plenum to make it longer.
Ever open the hood of a modern car and wonder why the INTAKE PLENUM has bulges... and appendages like... a gall bladder or appendix in the middle? Because at that specific point in the plenum, if you add a little volume, it either enhances, or reduces the mechanical reactances that affect the engine's airflow at a certain frequency.
It's TUNING.
Electric transmission systems have adjustable capacitor banks that they can switch in and out to TUNE the transmission lines to account for changes in Capacitive Reactance when things like... humidity and temperature... come in.
Time to go dig out the driveway, class dismissed. Test is next Tuesday, open notes, and calculators are allowed.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 8:05am
my head Hertz....
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 8:06am
ELI the ICE man.
Humidity and temperature monitoring in an automotive transmission are used to alter shift patterns from cold start to operating temperature(s) routinely. All, or at least partly in the name of CAFE baselines and standards. This again is costly to develop but the overall game plan is to be able to comply, implement, and sell the technology to the end user. Then the technology has to work long term. Vicious cycle it is.
------------- A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 8:47am
It get me that our new car was getting 34 to 35 miles per gallon when it was warm but in this colder weather it is down to 28 to 30. How much of the gasis just going out the tail pipe?
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 9:04am
car has to maintain a given Air/ Fuel ratio... when the air is COLD it is DENSE so "more air" goes thru the manifold..... Computer changes the "fuel injection" UP ,so you have the same Air / Fuel Ratio... hopefully there is no RAW FUEL going out the pipe.... EPA would not like that !!
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 9:08am
And winter fuel blends are much different that summer blends. The vehicle is in the middle of all that attempting to operate within established parameters.
------------- A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 9:11am
DaveKamp wrote:
... When you're working on an AIRCRAFT AC power system, you won't hear that 60-cycle buzz, you'll hear a 400-cycle WHINE... because they run at 400hz...
... you have IMPEDANCE... which we identify as 'Z'... |
I remember that 400 Hz whine quite well; the airborne radar equipment I worked on while I was in the Marines back in the 70's was all powered by 110 Volt, 400 Hz, 3 Phase, each R/T unit then had its own internal power supply to convert that into the necessary voltages. There was also 28 VDC on the aircraft.
For really long distance power transmission it can be more efficient to use DC. One of the dams near The Dalles, Oregon turns its juice into 500,000 Volt DC and sends it to Los Angeles, CA where it is turned back into AC and then sent to the local grid.
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 9:25am
tadams(OH) wrote:
It get me that our new car was getting 34 to 35 miles per gallon when it was warm but in this colder weather it is down to 28 to 30. How much of the gas is just going out the tail pipe? |
That sounds pretty reasonable to me. When the engine is cold and running in open loop it will send a richer mixture in until it warms up enough to go into closed loop; as mentioned above, winter blend fuel is worse, and any extended idle time (AKA Zero MPG) will bring your average down a bit.
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Posted By: desertjoe
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 10:57am
jaybmiller wrote:
my head Hertz....
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Me TOO, Jay,,,Me TOO,,!! but I AM LEARNING from Super Dave,,,,,,,,,, ![Clap Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif)
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 6:29pm
steve(ill) wrote:
car has to maintain a given Air/ Fuel ratio... when the air is COLD it is DENSE so "more air" goes thru the manifold..... Computer changes the "fuel injection" UP ,so you have the same Air / Fuel Ratio... hopefully there is no RAW FUEL going out the pipe.... EPA would not like that !!
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The density of the air from cold to hot is mathematically insignificant... particularly when you bring into account that the air PRESSURE from the very inlet point, to the THROTTLE is entirely different from the air pressure on the back side of the throttle. The throttled end is significantly LOWER (remember, you're pullin' 20" of vaccum, that means your air density is very very low.
This pressure change that occurs in the divergent zone of the venturi... or downstream of the throttle plate, causes a significant drop in temperature... and that's why you see frost on a carbeurator and intake manifold when it's 60 degrees outside.
The fuel metering under cold temperature is not because enrichenment is required for density, it is simply because enrichenment is required to compensate for all that fuel that does NOT vaporize.
YES, a considerable amount of fuel goes out the tailpipe. The catalytic converter's function is to burn that off (along with air injected from another source), but it can't do it until the exhaust gas temperatures climb high enough to heat the catalyst (heavy metal) in the converter.
There's many reasons why cars get better fuel economy when they're warm. Let's start the list with:
Because the intake plenum is warm enough to help that fuel atomize (ever wonder why your Allis manifold casting has the intake and exhaust sides mated together just above the carb? So exhaust heat can help combat carb ice... and atomize that fuel!
Because the transmission, final drive, and hubs are full of oil which is THICK when cold...
The moving parts were built to tolerances, and then broken in, to operate under 'running operating conditions'... and when they're NOT at 'operating temperature', the parts don't fit as well...
Because V-belts and serpentine belts don't like to flex when they're frozen...
Because people like to run the heater blower motor on full blast when it's cold... and that blower motor requires current which the alternator is very willing to generate, as long as the V or Serpentine Belt is willing...
Tires prefer to be square in one spot when they're stationary and cold... and square tires don't roll as well...
When it's cold, people tend to turn on heated seats, heated mirrors, and the rear defogger, which is a resistive heating grid... and it loves electricity, which the alternator will happily provide, as long as the V or Serp belt will spin it...
When it's cold, people tend to turn on the defroster, which is a combination of heat (from the engine and heater core) and the humidity reduction system (which activates the air conditioning compressor... which happily compresses refrigerant as long as the V or Serp Belt is willing)
For engines having a fan clutch... cold fan clutches will oftentime be very 'draggy' when cold... so the fan spins when it doesn't need to, as long as the V or Serp Belts will comply...
During the cold season (particularly at lattitudes north of I-40) there's frequently not much daylight, particularly when people need to commute to and from work, which means the headlights are on... which the alternator will happily provide, as long as the V or serp belt remains in service...
Where folks are just far enough south to not be fettered with this white stuff (and it's solid brethren), there is liquid snow, which requires removal using windshield wipers, which require electricity that the alternator is happy to provide... just so long as there's a V or serp belt willing to work...
In most cars, When the AC compressor is running, an electric fan will also be running... even if it's snowing... and the alternator will be generous in accomodating that... as long as...
And batteries in cold weather need a healthy charge in order to CRANK... which, once started, is being replaced by the alternator... which... you've heard this story before.
Now, if you want LOTS of wheel horsepower, try this- Disconnect that serp or V-belt, and give the throttle a mash... feel all that power!
On many modern cars, the alternator FIELD is controlled by the engine management computer. When you give it a full stomp, the computer SHEDS lots of the serp belt load by cutting off the alternator field... so for a short period of time, it's actually SHUTTING DOWN a significant amoubnt of the alternator's belt load. They also drop out the AC clutch. On some Porsches, they play a pre-recorded engine sound into the stereo (because... like an EDELBROCK or HOLLEY sticker, automatically adds 32hp)...
Really... internal combustion engines are NOT particularly efficient, and unburned fuel is a fair chunk of that.
The REST... is simple thermodynamics. You can figure that for every GALLON of gasoline going into an engine (at 115,000btu per gallon), that 18% of that thermal energy is turned into mechanical force.
The rest (82%) is turned into:
A) Waste Heat B) Noise and vibration or
C) unburned fuel.
And this is why, when we set up electric generators, we assume that for every kilowatt of energy generated, there's FOUR kilowatts of lost energy. For future reference, one KWh of electric power equates to 3412 BTU.
And if you have a liquid-cooled generator, the #1 way to GET THAT ENERGY VALUE BACK, is to pipe the coolant through heat exchangers and use it for some useful purpose, like heating your house.
Not much you can do about the noise, but if you enclose the generator in a sound-absorptive housing, the enclosure will entrap that noise, and convert it into HEAT.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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