FB 20 24 forklift help
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=199001
Printed Date: 23 Nov 2024 at 10:31am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: FB 20 24 forklift help
Posted By: spitfire_er
Subject: FB 20 24 forklift help
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 5:41pm
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Recently picked up this FB 24 20. Not sure about serial number but ID plate has #8792045, and # 1342 on it. This was purchased as a non running machine, but owner states it was running about 1-2 years ago. Said the "starter quit". Took it to a repair shop and the guy couldn't get repair parts. I got the starter in a box all taken apart. It honestly looks ok minus some ware. It needs a lp tank, and most likely brakes. A new hose from the top cover down to the regulator/vaporizer thing looks brand new. Forgive me if I'm not calling things correctly. A main question I have is the battery looks relatively new. Made on date of 9/20. So could have been idle since then. Nice 6v commercial 3eh battery. Haven't tried to charge it, bit the positive is connected to the positive and negative to negative ground? Thought there were suppose to be POS ground. It has a box on the alternator that says POS Ground 6v. I'm wondering if someone hooked up the battery wrong when they swapped it and it wouldn't work? Would this have fried it if it were hooked up wrong? I'll need any help I can get with this. Not new to mechanical stuff but this will be my first forklift. I'll most likely need to do brakes to some extent. Any help would be appreciated.     
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Replies:
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 6:18pm
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starter really does not care if you run 6v or 12v or what is grounded... the distributor should work on either, but the COIL will be specific to 6v or 12 v .. or have a resistor added if you change to 12v..... polarity of the wires needs to be checked... the "ground" side of the coil goes to the distributor. you have a Generator, not an alternator... it was probably 6v in the beginning, could be 12v now... but the paint makes it look original... Generator may be OK, but the Voltage Regulator box mounted to it needs to be setup for 6 v , or 12 v, and proper ground... by now, it may be fried. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 6:21pm
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what "PARTS" did he need for the starter ?? Something major, or just renew ? Can you put it back together and then test on the bench ? HE should at least have cleaned the commutator, straightened up the brush faces, and reassembled for you ? If it is a little weak, you can run it on 12v to get a little more PUSH.
I have a hard time believing "you cant get parts" for the starter ? What is the model and manufacturer ? There should also be a "replacement" that could be used instead of this original..... maybe a 12v unit ? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 6:31pm
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The 6v battery is still there, so I'm assuming it's still 6v. Not sure what parts they were looking for ether. I will clean it up and put the starter back together. I have to do some research to find out what's what for the maker of these parts. I'm wondering if a previous owner hooked up the battery wrong it wouldn't start and they gave up. Assuming it toasted that box, that would also kill the starter too correct? |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 8:07pm
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NO... the Generator or Voltage regulator has nothing to do with STARTING the tractor.. All you need is a starter and a Battery / Ignition switch...... What normally gives a "no start" is the cables are BAD, the battery is weak, the starter solenoid is bad, or the key switch is bad.. Jumper the starter on the bench and make sure it will run.. They run SLOW on 6 volts.... Cables have to be VERY GOOD condition, no corrosion, no bad spots... nothing that will cause ANY resistance... as you dont have a LOT of VOLTS to start with... Starter cable runs to the SOLENOID.... Solenoid cable runs to the BATTERY... Make sure both are good shape, shinny, no rust... and that the Solenoid is GOOD. If the starter just BUMPS but will not crank enough to start the engine... Put your 12v battery from the Truck in it and try that.. Dont matter what side is grounded ... you can disconnect the BAT wire on the voltage regulator if you want...
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 8:15pm
YEP... that is the ORIGINAL setup from 1950s. ... ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 8:55pm
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Thanks for all the info Steve. I won't get to it for a few days, but I need to get the starter back together first. So, does the battery appear to be hooked up correctly? Positive to solenoid to starter, Negative to engine ground? That seems backwards to me, or that's got nothing to do with it?     
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 9:37pm
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Just opposite of what it was 70 years ago... THe REGULATOR says POSITIVE GROUND so the battery + terminal would go to ground and the NEG battery terminal would go to the solenoid.... solenoid OUt goes to the starter......... but as i said, the starter really dont care... the Generator and regular want the POS GROUND if you get that far. Starter looks normal for 50- 70 years old.. Lots of grime, rust, and bare wires.. Make sure no bare wires are touching the case unless they are GROUND WIRES... you may have to wrap some tape around a few bare spots... Wash the rotor to get all the oil and grime off of it......... i like to take a pick and scratch the crud between each bar on the commutator to make sure one is not touching the one next to it... You might want to run some steel wool or VERY FINE PAPER over the commutator to get it shinny.... drop of oil on the bearings when going back together. photos post best if 800 x 600 pixel size...( your photos are taller than wide.. so you might try 600 wide x 800 tall size).. You can shrink them prior to down loading, or shrink them in the Down load Page prior to POSTING.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 10:00pm
| I'll have to swap the cables around on the battery then. I'll probably toss the armature in the lathe and clean up the commutator. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 9:58pm
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A guy stopped by today that was a former Allis chalmers mechanic. He pointed out the 12v coil. He looked at the torn apart starter and thought it looked fine minus some tlc. Was his opinion that it was swapped to 12v at some point. Said it is a continental engine? He said it should be wired correctly as well. Recommended cleaning up the starter, throwing it back together and trying to start it. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 9:01am
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Continental is probably right... Yes, i could be a 12v starter..but you have a 6v battery , so that does not add up... Not sure how he determined the wire is RIGHT.... Yes, the starter will run with either NEG of POS ground.... The GENERATOR appears to be 6 v and POS ground voltage regulator.. You need to determine if your going to go 6v or 12 v... then the "wire" can be determined to get the generator to work right........ at this point in time, i think you have a 6v battery, 6v starter, 6 v generator and POS ground regulator. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 1:57pm
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I have gotten the starter clean up commutator turned and put back together. I picked up a new 6v battery and I think I'll put it back together as is as try it. I need to get a propane tank and figure out what type of hydraulic oil it needs. Anyone know what fluid to use for the hydraulic system? |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 10:46pm
| Hooked it all up and tried it. Got a very faint click. Wasn't even a click, but I heard it. Might check the selonoid tomorrow to see if it's works. Might jump the starter too. Guess I never tested it on the bench. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 10:35pm
| Tried again today. Selonoid clicked with the start button. Starter did nothing. Ran jumper to starter and it clicked once and nothing. I might have to double check the starter and pull it off. The other thing is I didn't check to see if the motor was stuck! |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2024 at 11:27pm
| Pulled the plugs today and pretty sure it got done condensation in the engine. Will have to try and break it free. No good spot to turn by hand so I'll need to pull it with my truck. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 1:36pm
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couple spoons full of penetrating oil down each plug hole might help.. Setting for several days can also help it soak in... Hydraulics are nothing special... hydraulic fluid / hytrans / 10wt/ AW32 or 46 ... about anything is OK. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 8:24pm
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Haven't done much with this, but did get the starter working. Installed it and the solenoid clicks but doesn't engage the starter. Power direct to starter works. But it turned then quickly stopped due to I'm pretty sure it's locked up. My next step may be to pull the head and try and clean as much as I can. I will need a new gasket though and I'm not sure which engine it is, was told it's a continental. Can I make a gasket? Thinking if I can break it free, which will be a task, I can get it running. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 8:45pm
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At one point in time, the FB20- 24 used a WAUKESHA 4 cylinder engine.. ? --------------------  ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 8:59pm
obvious difference in head gaskets for each manufacturer... ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 9:07pm
| Thank you very much. I'll have to double check and order one. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 9:27pm
Cant say for sure... but with the spark plugs on TOP like this... it would lead you to believe it is a FLAT HEAD engine.. So your Continental "guess" could be correct.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 9:56pm
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Could be a Conti, a Waukesha, or a Hercules. My gut says that it's around 60ish ci... For Conti, that would be an N56, N62, or Y-69... For WOOKIE, probably an ICK (61ci) If Hercules, either a ZXA(59), ZXB (65ci) orone of it's brethren. LOOKS like a Waukesha ICK, due to the water neck being centrally located, and no distributor through the top of the head... but you'll need to find the engine ID tag to be certain. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2024 at 10:38pm
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I bet your right Dave.. I was thinking a little BIGGER on the motor, but the little ICK is probably closer to the size it originally came with... and that was the flat head. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2024 at 6:53pm
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Where is the ID tag? I did pull the head today and was able to rock it back and forth in gear and the cylinders seemed to move freely and it all looked good. Guess I'm back to the starter. It is marked "MAK 4023" Spins freely under power when its on the bench. Won't spin on the engine. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2024 at 7:17pm
well............ that narrows it down.. quick GOOGLE search ...
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2024 at 7:30pm
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Brett... you may want to bar the engine over a couple revolutions to check everything.. With the head off, you might be able to rotate the water pump / fan belt/ etc to check things out...... Not exactly the same, but i have seen auto engines "locked up" that ended up being a frozen alternator bearing, steering pump , air conditioner compressor, belt tensioner...i know you dont have these, but just VERIFY the engine will roll ALL the way around a couple times... Bearings / rods / governor broke / distributor froze / cam shaft stuck...etc... you never know.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2024 at 7:36pm
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If it ends up being the starter... and you dont have a local shop.. Call DA MAN ! https://www.bb-customcircuits.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.bb-customcircuits.com/ ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2024 at 8:18pm
| I did a Google search for that the other day and it came up with nothing. That link is for a wanted ad. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2024 at 9:07pm
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YES... but he says it is an AUTO LITE starter number MAK 4023 and it goes on a WAK ICK engine... thats YOU ! ... not to purchase... just good info. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2024 at 12:00am
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There's one thing that can cause a flathead to become unwilling to rotate past a certain point- a stuck valve tappet. IF you force it, when the cam tries to push on that tappet, it will risk breaking the camshaft, or the block. When I've found an engine that had that circumstance (and it hadn't been broken yet), spraying penetrant into the tappets and the valve areas, and tapping on each valve with a softwood mallet will usually knock them loose with no damage. roll it over gently by hand, and if you feel resistance, STOP... and look at which valve should move NEXT... But I think your circumstance is just a goin' through of the starter. The ICK is a sweet little motor... especially where it was used as a pony to warm up, then start a big 12+ cylinder... you prime and wrap a string around the ICK's front end (there's no radiator, it simply circulates the main engine's coolant) and pull the string, it burbles to life... walk away for an hour, let it circulate coolant, flow exhaust, and pump oil... and when you come back, set the big engine into starting configuration, wind up the ICK's throttle, pull the clutch out gently, and get the big engine's crank turning... after a few dozen turns, give the big engine some fuel and it chugs to life... ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2024 at 9:29am
| Thanks, I do believe that is correct. It does look exactly like a waukesha engine. I will have to pull the head again and check the valves. I'm not sure how to turn it by hand outside of spinning the flywheel with prybar. There is a pump mounted on the front. Maybe since it's loose from yesterday I can spin the pulley by hand. I'll try and look later today and mess with it. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2024 at 12:06pm
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Before you pull the head off again, take the spark plugs out and try to turn the pulley.. If it does rotate and you think its the starter motor, you save a step.. If it wont turn, then take off the head...... if your SURE that pump on the front is not locked up ?? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2024 at 11:47pm
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Worked on it today a little. My neighbor is a former motor repair guy that had a shop in town for many years. He looked the starter over and said it looked good and seemed to work just fine after I cleaned it up. While the starter was off I was able to spin the motor with a prybar on the flywheel. I turned it a couple revolutions. I did notice a couple tight spots but I backed off and spun it back and after a couple of those, I was able to turn it over via the belt and pulley and it spun freely. I'm at the point now to where I'm going tonreplace both battery cables because both leads have bad corrosion just after the clamps with some fraying of the wires. It is also written "+ positive ground" under the engine cover in a sharpie. I was able to get it to spin the engine a couple times jumping direct to the starter. Getting closer. I think I'm ready for a propane tank which I don't have yet. I also believe my brand new $150 battery didn't have a good charge. I charged it for an hour and it spun the starter. It's charging overnight. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2024 at 4:17am
Before you get the propane, check the carborator. On propane carbs, there is a little atmospheric pressure sensing thingie (forget what it's called) that the mud dubbers and hole spiders love to stuff fulla mud, at least around here. If that thingie is blocked, carb no workie... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 5:46pm
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Well, finally figured it out. I ended up fully charging the battery, new batt cables and got same issue. The. Tried to jump from the back side of solenoid and nothing. Took off the the 0 Gauge wire from selonoid to starter and made up a new 4 Guage. Popped off w/o hesitation. Was that wire the whole time! Now I need to replace the water hose from the engine to the LP thing, wait for my new tank to arrive and hopefully get it at least running this next week. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2024 at 6:42pm
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GREAT !!!.... a good set of HEAVY cables is a MUST on a 6v system... The 4 gauge will work when new, but long term, you should get a couple NEW CABLES.. HEAVY DUTY !!
Of course your only talking about a 60 cubic inch motor spread out over 4 cylinders... and probably not very high compression ratio.... You may not need the REAL HEAVY.. but would be nice to have #2 all the way around..... with NEW ends and clean GROUND. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2024 at 9:46am
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The 'propane thingy' that has water hoses going to it, is an 'evaporator'. It provides heat to help make the liquid propane want to become vapor. Take a soft bristle brush and scrub off the surfaces of the fuel system components. You'll find under there brand and model names, possibly model type serial numbers. You'll probably also find plenty of dirt over the breather vents and such. Take photos of the identification. The original evaporator for that vintage could have been by several major manufacturers, Ensign was one of the most prolific then. Beam, Garretson, Zenith, Algas, Hoof, Rego, Impco... and probably a half dozen others I've missed. Propane fuel system needs the following steps: - Storage (tank) - Withdrawl Wethod (liquid or vapor). Mobile equipment, using small tanks need to be vapor withdrawl, stationary systems with large tanks are usually fine with vapor Fuel lockoff- a method of shutting off fuel supply in the event that the engine isn't running. Lockoff is different from 'cutoff', which is a function of the fuel metering system. Evaporation - Vaporous systems don't need an evaporator, but liquid withdrawl does. MOST evaporators use engine heat to warm the liquid and improve evap, as unevaporated liquid going into low pressure devices is really, really bad. First stage regulation- drops tank pressure from whatever it happens to be, to either 10psi, 5psi, or 2psi Second stage regulation - drops first stage pressure from 10/5/ or 2 to 11" water column (around 0.4 psi) Fuel supply hand valve - on stationary engines, always place a fuel supply hand valve just before the fuel controller. Fuel controller, aka 'zero governor' aka 'demand regulator' aka 'negative pressure regulator'. The function of this device is to accept gaseous fuel at 11" water column, and 'meter' it to the engine based on engine DEMAND. it is a mechanically proportional device, that has two other extremely important functions: When the engine is stopped, it must be sensitive enough to totally CUT OFF fuel flow... and when the engine is CRANKING, it must be sensitive enough to respond and allow fuel into the airstream. They are henceforth, devices that must be treated with delicate care. LOAD Block, aka 'power valve' is an adjustable orfice located between the fuel controller and the demand point (the mixer) which limits the maximum fuel flow possible under full load. The piping between the fuel controller to the load block needs to be as short as possible, and unrestrictive, so that the load block performs properly AND the engine is responsive to load. The 'spud'... an orfice which is located at the 'demand point' of a venturi... it is located in the divergent edge of a venturi, and airflow through the venturi generates negative pressure which draws gaseous fuel from the fuel controller, through the metering block, into the intake airstream. As airstream velocity increases, spud pressure at that demand point falls lower, demanding more fuel from the fuel controller. Mixer - The mixer is a gaseous equivalent of a 'carbeurator', but it isn't a 'carbeurator', because it is not accepting and metering a liquid, it is simply mixing gaseous fuel with incoming air. The mixer can be a part that stands alone, with a venturi and spud, or it can be a liquid carbeurator that has been fitted with an additional spud point to be added as an option. A mixer can also be a secondary venturi with a spud, that is placed either between a manifold and carb, or between the carb and air filter. Hopefully this will make it easier for you to identify the components in your forklift. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2024 at 3:17pm
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Back at it. I got it spinning. New plugs and wires. Spark appears correct. Will sputter with ether but looks like I'm not getting LP past ether the selonoid shutoff valve just before the vaporizer or nothing through the vaporizer. Not sure what the shutoff is called or where to get it, but I'm looking right after this. The vap. Is an Ensign RDG 55A3. Not sure what. The sellonoid thing is. Edit: Just checked the shutoff and it appears to be working. Smelled lp when I took it apart too. Also, it is low on coolant and I didn't want to fill it till I got it running. Does the coolant provide any vacuum? Could that be why it's not working? Guessing the vaporizer is bad or leaking. Wonder if I can just replace it with a new one?   
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Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 5:33pm
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I tried dumping some gas down the carb and it sputtered. Got me to thinking about the direction of the distributor and if it's running CW or CCW. Found the main problem! I had it set to fire running CW. Distributor runs CCW. Firing order 1-2-4-3. Swapped 2 and 3 and it ran for a minute. Put the vaporizer back on and got it running for several minutes on propane. Looks like I have a pretty severe head gasket leak though. Plugs were all wet. Couldn't get it running after shutting it off and trying to restart it in an hour. I think I'm at the point of selling it. While I think its cool, it's not going to work for what I need. I should have somone coming Friday to buy it and I will be looking for another one, hopefully a little newer. I will be putting up a video on YouTube once I get it all edited. Was a lot of footage to edit. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 8:55pm
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Got it running better. Had a bad head gasket leak. Olson's gaskets had a NOS one so got it replaced. Here's a couple videos I did on getting it going. https://youtu.be/XlYs_THg_eM" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/XlYs_THg_eM And head gasket replacement. https://youtu.be/Rptskq-Tank" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Rptskq-Tank I ordered a brake master that should be here Thursday ro see if I can get those going. The mast cylinder leaks and not sure I want to fix it, but not sure if I can get a gasket set for it ether. Never done one. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2024 at 9:13pm
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So have you decided to keep it ?? Looks like you got a lot of the HARD stuff done... Everything that is "OLD" and "GOOD PRICE" is going to have a variety of problems... as you have seen.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: spitfire_er
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2024 at 12:23pm
| I have a guy coming tonight to look at it. I don't mind spending a little more to get a little nicer machine. I can't have oil dripping on my floors and I need pneumatic tires as well. I do have a brake master coming but not sure I'll get to that part of it. I haven't looked at the brakes, but it will need the master regardless. It also has the hand brake which just needs The broken cable hooked back up. |