Hard starting 7010
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=198963
Printed Date: 24 Jun 2024 at 8:29am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hard starting 7010
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Subject: Hard starting 7010
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 4:26pm
| We purchased a 7010 last fall and needed to replace the injector pump. The tractor would start and run full throttle. We lined up the pump marks and removed the pump to get it rebuilt. After getting the pump rebuilt we lined up the marks and reinstalled on the tractor. Our agco dealer installed all new injectors in the head that we removed. The rest of the engine looked good. After putting the head back on, hooking up everything the tractor is darn hard to start, it smokes A LOT when trying to start. If we use ether it will finally start and it runs perfect. If we shutoff the tractor it will restart easily until it sits for a while. Any ideas what I could have done wrong? |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 5:26pm
| Maybe nothing. Diesel engines do start hard when they are cold. "Last Fall " means when?? 2023?? or 2022 ?? Recheck injection pump timing to verify it is at 16 degrees BTDC. Anything faster than that (17 or more) will make it start hard when COLD and eventually burn a piston. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 5:26pm
|
the hardest job a pump has to do is crank a tractor - you stated the tractor would sart and run full throttle - suggest nothing was wrong with the pump - probably a fuel restriction that still exists or an air leak. IF not - we always suggest using a remote fuel source bypassing the tractor's system - the pump could be advanced a few degrees. Try removing the front pump cover and moving the timing back - say 4 degrees - and see what happens. Cranking speed is also VERY important on these engines. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 5:46pm
| When you started the tractor with the old pump it would run fast idle no matter what you tried. Replaced the injector pump and that stopped. We put a brand new gear reduction starter on as well as new batteries. It cranks fine just doesn't start. I will take a video and post. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 5:58pm
| Cranks fast and SMOKES WHITE ??? or cranks fast and NO smoke ?? |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 8:38pm
| ...he said it smokes A LOT!! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 8:56pm
| It's hard to help people when they don't accurately answer questions. Fall of 2022 or 2023 makes a difference to me. 2022 means they should be knowledgeable about COLD starts and block heaters, etc, etc. 2023 may mean they think this is like a gas tractor for cold starting and it ain't. Good in 2022 and not now in 2023 would mean to me the likely hood of the injection pump being incorrectly timed somewhere faster than 16 degrees BTDC. BEST starting is with the throttle at dead idle, crank the engine and pull out the fuel knob slowly. |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 9:19pm
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As they say a video is worth a thousand words https://youtu.be/GyhWtr2XqwQ?feature=shared" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/GyhWtr2XqwQ?feature=shared
|
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 9:20pm
| cranks fast and white smoke |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 9:22pm
| the shop the tractor is in is kept at approximately 60 degrees |
Posted By: KJCHRIS
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 9:54pm
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What is overnight temperature in building? 0 - 15 - 30 - 45 - 60 Fahrenheit. Are you using an engine coolant heater and does it work & make engine head warm to the touch? Throttle position while cranking; Low idle - 1/2 - full open ?? Does a 7010 have an intake heater and does it work & do you use it and for how long? Once running if you shutoff for 15 -20 minutes how is it to restart? There's plenty of knowledgeable people here willing to help but need more info. ------------- AC 200, CAH, AC185D bareback, AC 180D bareback, D17 III, WF. D17 Blackbar grill, NF. D15 SFW. Case 1175 CAH, Bobcat 543B, |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 9:54pm
| INJECTION PUMP NOT TIMED TO 16 DEGREES BTDC. Keep it up and you'll be buying another starter. |
Posted By: JPG AUSTRALIA
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2023 at 11:37pm
| Interesting thread,i bought a 7040,exact same issue,will roll white smoke but needs a shot of ether to start unless air temp is hot ,90f and above. First thing i did was check timing,expecting it to be too advanced,it was spot on,so retartded it 2 degrees. No better. Once its been running and motor warmed up its fine for a restart. Motor was just rebuilt before i got it,and it all seems good. I think maybe on mine it could be few things, cam might be timd wrong,causing low start compression ,or the pump isnt timed right internally. Im thinking pump issue as mine pulls good but wont roll black coal when you load it hard like a normal 426,always clean at full power. |
Posted By: rw
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 6:30am
|
Could the timing mark slip to a deteriorated rubber on the damper? Maybe a visual inspection of dampener could provide a clue. Can a dial indicator be placed in the fuel nozzle opening to prove TDC? We were not careful enough to clean and read the numbers on the dampener after a fuel pump overhaul and set it ten degrees wrong and had a poor running engine. Corrected timing and all was OK.
|
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 7:07am
| Rubber damper could have slipped, sure. That's why it's important to CHECK where a running/starting engine is timed at BEFORE pump removal and place it right back where it was. Check timing to verify. Correct if needed. Start using block heater for an hour on COLD starts. |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 7:39am
| of course we cranked on it that long so all of you could see what was happening. |
Posted By: im4racin
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 7:39am
| So a block heater is needed at 60 degrees? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 7:44am
| SHOULDN"T BE, but if there isn't enough cranking compression to start a fire, that's what it MIGHT take to figger out what their problem is. Until pump timing is VERIFIED we are all guessing and no one has said if it started fine in Fall of 2022. It is said the cylinder head was removed from the engine. WHY?? Were the valves and seats touched up/reground?? because if so, the valves may be sunk into the head deeper than specs and hard starting is the result. Again....2022 to 2023 what has changed .......... |
Posted By: Kenny L.
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 7:55am
|
My 8030 was the same way, would roll over good and smoke white, got a hold of Dr and he told me to change out the engine heater and make sure the extension cord is heavy enough and is good. I did that and always pump up fuel by hand and open throttle wide open and when she hit pull throttle back to idle, that is with the old girl setting in a shed with no heat. I need to plug the heater in for 4 or 6 hrs before trying to start her, it make all the different in the world. Do as the one that know what they're talking are telling you and answer all there question, and remember to check everything and recheck it again. GOOD LUCK. |
Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 8:31am
No, some thing is wrong, my wore out 6080 starts way better. My 8050's vibration damper with only 4000 hrs on it moved 12 degrees.
------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
im4racin wrote:Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 11:32am
|
WOW!!! Smoking that much at 60deg and not a sign of ignition with all that cranking! Follow Dr's orders here for best results.
I'm guessing that a 301 can't have the backward injector install like the Bosch 426's?
|
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 12:01pm
They sure can if it's got Bosch/Ambac injectors. If AC injectors, no. A 7010 would be a very good possibility of having the Bosch. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 1:07pm
|
The tractor started fine with the old injection pump just ran full throttle, so we only started it a couple of times before replacing the pump. The cylinder head was removed because it was leaking anti-freeze at the injectors. All six injectors were supplied and installed by the dealer, the dealer also 'magna fluxed' the head to make sure there were no cracks, again the head was done and parts supplied by an agco dealer in Winfield KS. We were told by the dealer the valves, seats, and springs were fine. I do not have the required tools to install the injector seals or whatever they are called. Once the tractor starts it runs fantastic. I will work on getting the timing checked.
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Posted By: Ron(AB)
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 1:27pm
|
Just to add to the good advice, what about using the air manifold heater? Or adding one if it doesn't already have one? Makes all the difference in mine... ------------- 405, 7000, 7050, 8050, 8070, L3, 2300 & 2600 disk |
Posted By: automaticdave
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 2:26pm
| Just trying to help & get a clear picture of this issue, " Quote " the dealer told you the valves, seats & springs were fine, DID THEY GRIND THE VALVES & SEATS ??? Is it possible to install a thicker head gasket than oem ? Could the valves be adjusted too tight? I,m no expert by any means but from what I see & hear in the video I can't help but think you have a low compression issue. All the best -- Dave |
Posted By: 8070nc
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 5:30pm
|
Just some thoughts from past experience I absolutely am not suggesting you did anything wrong. Stuff happens. I can be dead wrong with what im about to say Feel free to reject it if you dont think its right. Looking at the video makes me think the timing is too late. It would mimic low compression. But you say it runs fine after its started so I dont know. I think if it was mine id ensure somehow that the timing marks on the dampner are correct ------------- 1984 80780 1957 D14 DES 300 with 25000 engine 616 tractor |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 10:28pm
| Getting accurate info shouldn't be so hard.....who bolted head on? Must have had leaky copper injector sleeves? Who set valve lash? Are injectors installed correctly? If pump was pulled after aligning pump timing marks and engine WAS NOT TURNED the rebuilt pump should go back in place in perfect time....it should have been locked with timing marks aligned. You said you had to turn rebuilt pump....something don't sound right to me. If dealer did all this work they should be helping figure out problem. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 10:41pm
| U say all 6 injectors were supplied and Installed by dealer...do you mean injector sleeves not injectors? You don't say what was done exactly with the head. It sounds like all they did was replace copper sleeves and magnaflux for cracks.That would eliminate the question about grinding valves |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 11:22am
|
If old pump was trying to run away, I've seen one other DM have this, the weight carrier drive is pressed on and has a small pin to lock in place, and one came in sheared and slipping. This piece is where the timing mark is, so if you timed it upon removal, there's a possibility it wasn't actually in time, just some random spot. Good luck! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 2:30pm
|
The dealer installed the seals (needed a swayed tool or something like that) and new injectors.
Ed - I bet you are right. We will find out this week
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 9:10pm
| It's a swedge tool. Swedges the sleeve in the head at injector hole. I think they use an o-ring on the upper end. |
Posted By: Kevin in WA
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 9:50pm
| Make sure the injectors are in correctly, the return line must be on the valve cover side, they start and run like crap if they are in 1/2 turn off. |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 6:06pm
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Here is what i found. The tractor was at 19 degrees btdc. I adjusted the timing to 16 degrees btdc the tractor is in the shop, the temp in the shop is approximately 55 degrees. Since we had to take the site plate off it took a little bit to get the fuel back to the injection pump. It cranked about 15 seconds and tried to fire. Stopped cranking let the fuel pump run for a couple of minutes to make sure air was out of the lines. We started cranking again and hit the ether button, the tractor started right up. Not too bad for starting in 50 degree shop. We took it out to pick up a calf in the calf crate (hooked to the three point) and it ran great. Just for the heck of it I started the 7045, it started with no ether or block heater. Our 190xt needed about 90 seconds of manifold heater but it started. Didn't try the 180 or 185. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and help!
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 7:04pm
| Please try to start it like this and I think you'll possibly see more improvement. Leave the throttle at dead slow idle. Leave the fuel knob IN. Turn on the key and start cranking the engine over for 5 seconds and then slowly pull out on the fuel knob. |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 7:19pm
| will do - thanks for the help |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 10:03pm
| I always like to know why.....in this case I believe that slow introduction of fuel spray takes less heat out of the compressed air to help it ignite. Correct? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 2:02am
| The fuel off cranking makes heat, yes. The throttle at a dead idle keeps timing retarded as much as possible and fuel delivery minimal to start the fire burning instead of drowning it. Slow fuel turn on helps keep whatever heat there is building and not snuff it out. AmBach pumps (8030 and up) like full throttle setttings for best starts when cold. Stanadyne not so much. All diesel engines benefit from a little time with the block heater plugged in, even if it's only for 30 minutes. I'd also think a heavy dose of "cetane booster" in your winter tank of fuel would help get the fire started easier too. I'll bet one or two tractor tanks of fuel gets most people thru the winter ??? |
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 7:23am
| An intake manifold air heater, like the 190 has,could be added to the tractor. It would certainly help starting issues on relatively cool temperatures. |
Posted By: im4racin
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:15pm
| I don’t think starting aids are something that needs to be added for 60 degrees |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:54pm
| Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A quote from a D-21 Owners manual on page 20. Same wording is also in a 1969 One-Eighty book: In warm temperatures ABOVE 60 degrees, the engine should start after a short cranking period. If it does not start after 10 seconds of cranking, wait a minute or two before trying again to prevent overheating of the starting motor. If the engine doesn't start after 3 attempts, the cause should be determined. In cooler temperatures BELOW 60 degrees, use of the manifold air heater will aid in the starting. The air heater is used to warm the air in the intake manifold prior to cranking the engine. Operate the air heater for 45 seconds and then crank the engine to start. If it doesn't start, you may need to do this procedure again. An optional ether start system is available for quick starts in all temperatures. Now, while in this case (a 7020) I tend to agree with you, there are some facts that need to be understood. #1. you can own three identical tractors and all three of them may COLD start equally, or all three might be different. #2. Enjoy how a new diesel tractor starts when cold. It's the best it will ever be. From the first 100 hrs on, it is a very slow descent to harder and harder cold starting, as the cranking compression of the engine gets to be less and less. They still run fine when started, but it's the initial cold start heat creation to burn the fuel that decreases. Just a fact of diesel engine life. An engine with 350 psi cranking compression will NOT start like one with 390 psi of compression. #3. An engine with 16 to 1 compression will always start better than a 15 to 1 compression engine. A 7020 is 15 to 1. A 6080 is 14 to 1 on early models. Modern engines are 17 to 1 or even more. #4. Grinding valves and seats always makes these engines start harder because the valves are sunk into the head deeper making cranking compression lower. New valves and seats set to the minimum valve recession is thee best for cold starts. #5. Been my experience that injectors set at lower specs pressures start better when cold. Like 3400 psi instead of 3850 psi as an example. 6. Some people just don't like to use the block heater or ether and prefer to grind away on the starter. So, the long and short of it is, not all engines start like we think they should and there are MANY reasons why this is. |
Posted By: farmboycitygirl
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2024 at 2:07pm
|
DrAllis, We tried your suggested way to start and it really improved how fast the tractor started. Thank you "Please try to start it like this and I think you'll possibly see more improvement. Leave the throttle at dead slow idle. Leave the fuel knob IN. Turn on the key and start cranking the engine over for 5 seconds and then slowly pull out on the fuel knob."
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2024 at 5:26pm
| Glad to hear you're getting along better. Winter time is tough on cold starts for sure. |