Land lease problem
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Topic: Land lease problem
Posted By: Sandknob
Subject: Land lease problem
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 8:55pm
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I have just started farming within the last few years, and at the same time growing my "operation". After my grandmother (on my moms side) passed away is about the time I really got into it seriously. She always had a friend of my grandfather (he passed away in 81) farm the ground and they were always good to her, but most of her kids did not care for the farmer. Anyway I picked up the small patch she had at the end of last year and had a good crop of corn off of it this year. Well I now have picked up the larger 20 acres across the road that the previous farmer had always farmed. My parents (the executors) informed the previous tenants appx the last week of September that I would be farming it. They in turn let my parents know that they had already purchased the seed, nh3, and fertilizer for the following year and they would decide how best to go about the change. Well we hadn't heard anything for a couple weeks so I stopped and talked to him yesterday and he informed me that since they were not notified in time that they figured $2000 would be about right to make it right. I was under the impression that unless the ground was going to be planted in wheat that the notification date was Nov 1.
Now for some more info:
I work for fertilzer company A
They bought seed, fertilizer, and NH3 thru company B
Company A can custom apply NH3 which I was going to have done as I do not have a bar.
Company B does not offer that service
Company B has not put on fertilizer yet.
I also have a plate planter so I cannot plant just any seed.
What is everybodys opinion and what are our options.
Thanks
Adam
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Replies:
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:04pm
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B.S..... ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:06pm
| Eldon ????? Which part?? |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:09pm
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That they had purchased seed and fertilizer before the end of September??....I believe I would have the first right of refusal anytime before the first half of the rent is paid...maybe it is different out your way.... ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:11pm
| I don't know how much difference it makes, but it is crop share (1/3 - 2/3) instead of cash rent. |
Posted By: Osage_Orange
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:12pm
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I think they are just trying to take advantage of you. Anyone who purchases material, equipment, etc. for farming without having an agreement with the landowner is foolish (or use "poor word choice") and should not expect to have lifelong rights to farm a piece of land. Tell them it is an "unfortunate incident" but you plan to farm the land. If they persist or threaten you, talk to a lawyer. ------------- Why is there never time to do it right the first time, but always time to go back and fix it? |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:13pm
| As I was talking to him he had the gull to ask me if this was just something my parents came up with or if the rest of the family even knew about it (which they have for months now and I have thier support on). |
Posted By: Russ-neia
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:14pm
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In Iowa notification of termination is Sept. 1. ------------- The innovators offer what others will imitate. |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:16pm
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I found Iowa's notification as Sept 1, but I can not seem to find Illinois. I have always heard Nov 1, but that doesn't mean its the right date.
Adam
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Posted By: Brad(WI)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:17pm
| Around me it would be refunded more than likely. The fertilizer has shot up in price around here. I booked mine around Oct 1st, and it has gone up quite a bit. Unused seed is refunded in spring, so I don't know why they wouldn't in fall. He's just being an a-hole. How much notice does a person need, if he didn't have a written contract saying he had it next year it's not your fault. |
Posted By: Larry in OK
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:17pm
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Time to spend a few bucks with a lawyer for a consultation before you have to spend a lot of bucks with a lawyer to defend a lawsuit.
------------- Some people are like Slinkies. Not really good for much of anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs. |
Posted By: DaveCinIN
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:18pm
| If I or my renter wants to change or cancel the rent contract, we would have to let the other know by Oct 1st. Was there a contract? |
Posted By: ScottinSWIL
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:20pm
| If there is not a written contract then you went about it right by letting them know in plenty of time in advance. I always thought Nov 1 was the date also. I would say you owe them nothing. If they insist on farming it next year, change the terms to a very generous cash rent agreement on your terms and see how bad they really want to farm it another year. |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:21pm
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Larry,
That though crossed my mind earlier. I planned on calling our lawyer tommorow just to see where we stood at (not planning any lawsuit, don't believe in them (at least for this), but that doesn't mean they don't).
Brad,
I got that impression too. Sometimes the guy can be real nice, othertimes lookout.
Adam
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Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:25pm
| As far as if there is a contract, I don't know on that. My parents would know as mom has spent quite a bit of time going over grandmas papers and sorting things out with a lawyer after her passing (genreal items not neccesarily the land). |
Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:26pm
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It ------------- |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:28pm
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Joe,
That also crossed my mind too. If for some reason I decided to get out in the future, or was pushed out for other reasons (i hope not though). I would have recommended that they be first to farm the ground, but not now.
Adam
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Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:29pm
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By the way thanks for all the opinions and please keep them coming.
Adam
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Posted By: Wil M (NEIA)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:30pm
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You need to find out the land laws and rent laws in the state of Illinois. In Iowa, it doesn't matter if it is a written contract or a verbal contract, you still have to give the tenant notice by the 1st of September if you do not want them to farm it the next year. Then things like plow back, lime etc have to be worked out and a fair value assigned. There is the possibility that he fertilized it last year for 2 crop years, that is done quite frequently around here in some rotations. ------------- "Yet there are soulless men whose hand and brain tear down what time will never give again." Anderson M Scruggs |
Posted By: tomNE
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:39pm
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call your FSA office they will have your answer. in NE, its sept 1 unless a written contract specifies another date. I had a large farmer spend a ton of money to break a contract that i had from a landowner that died. i didn't even take a lawyer to court. the judge threw it out. told them they had to honor what was the normal practice even as far as bills paid for chem and fert. ------------- AC from the start of my families farming career till the end! |
Posted By: ScottinSWIL
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 9:55pm
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I have been on both sides of the situation through the years. It is hard sometimes to give up a piece of land that you have farmed for a long time especially if it is close by home. I lost over 500 acres one year in a sealed bid opening for cash rent. I would hope losing 20 acres won't put these guys in bad shape. Life goes on. But, the bottom line is, if you don't own then nothing is guranteed forever. |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 10:23pm
| Technically when the landlord dies the lease expires when the crop is harvested unless they were told otherwise. You would owe for the value of residual fertillizer and lime but unapplied fertillizer and seed should not be your responsibility and even if he prepaid for them he should be able to get a refund or credit from his suppliers. |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 11:27pm
| SD is Sept 1 for verbal leases. Cancellations of verbal leases have to be in writing. No Cancellation, then lease automatically renews. Written leases go by whats written in the lease. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 11:36pm
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$100/acre in pre-emptive investment? really? in a 20-acre field? 20 acres... and how many does he already farm? Does having an excess of 20 acres in seed ORDERS and other contracts really cause that big a dent in his economy of scale? And he couldn't read the writing on the wall?? Sounds pretty fishy to me... I'm not a farmer, and don't even play one on TV, but I'd say that if statute indicates you as giving notice AFTER the date, then consider another avenue, but if you're PRIOR the date, and have some solid documentation that proves you gave pre-statute notice, I'd be inclined to not even worry about it. |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2010 at 11:49pm
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Honestly. 20 acres. Give him one more year so he can't do any badmouthing of your family. 20 acres of trouble now may cost you a hundreds of acres gig in the future. Letting them stay on now puts the ball back in their court. Gives people around the area a whole year to see how your old tenants handle the departure. If they are pricks I guarentee you others will take note. One guy around here turned off his straw chopper and dumped 30 ft of bean straw in windrows on 1200 acres he was legally cancelled from. News like that spread around the whole county. He never has picked up any more rented land.
You can build alot of goodwill points out of this. I think those will payoff more than the money off of 20 acres 1 year earlier.
Unless the date by law is Nov 1, then piss on him. If you missed a earlier date then back off.
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Posted By: John (C-IL)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:03am
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Adam, I'll call BS on this one. The notice date in Illinois is October 31. You still have time to get it in writing like you are supposed to do.
Here is a link for you:
http://www.farmdoc.illinois.edu/legal/articles/ALTBs/ALTB_04-11/ALTB_04-11_mod2.pdf - http://www.farmdoc.illinois.edu/legal/articles/ALTBs/ALTB_04-11/ALTB_04-11_mod2.pdf
As far as prepayed expenses that is BS also. Until the fertilizer or field operations are completed the landlord has no responsibility to the tenant. As others have suggested it may be worthwhile to contact an attorney. It may be a CYA moment but a couple hundred dollar expense now may save some headaches in the future. While you are at it I would suggest that there be a written lease between you and the family. You will need it to "participate" in the government programs anyhow.
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Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:03am
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October 31st is the deadline date via the U of I extension office. We were also told to send certified mail. How does certified mail work when the fellow is not home during the day normally.
Adam
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Posted By: clovis
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:05am
I agree. This should be a tough one to pass up, but I'd tend to be a gentleman in this situation and pass on it for this year. He has a year notification that you are taking over the lease in the fall of 2011. I kind of see both sides of this story. I once had a customer that wanted to cancel their order with me to go with another supplier....but I had their order on the press at the time of notification. I understand that they wanted to buy from their daughter in law, but come on, I had $1300 laid into their job when they called to cancel. I am thankful they took the job because I didn't have $1300 to lose at the time. Sand, you posted a month ago that you might be able to pick up 50 to 70 acres (?). Can you grab some of those acres, and let this guy have it for next season? This avoids any big problems with lawyers, and you look good to everyone involved. |
Nathan (SD) wrote:Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:05am
| They drop a card in their mailbox that says "come to the post office, you must sign for this". (sort of, basicly thats what it says in a nutshell). |
Posted By: clovis
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:09am
The postal carrier would leave a slip in the mailbox, and the recipient will have to drive to the post office to pick up the letter and sign for it. |
Posted By: Steve Bright
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:15am
| Indiana has always been Sept 1 also, But in today's time my quess would be who has the best Attorney. |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:16am
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Clovis,
We are considering letting him have it for next year and fall of 2011 I take over. I had actually made two passes (about 14ft total) with a chiesel plow though, so I hope that doesn't throw a wrench into it.
Adam
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Posted By: John (C-IL)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:26am
Well, I'd consider that about as long as it took me to spit. If this guy has the attitude you are describing he will have a year to decide what it is that he can do to make your life miserable and possibly cost your family more than they ever dreamed it would cost to terminate the lease. Let's get real here, it's 20 freaking acres! If 20 acres will break his business he needs to find another career!
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Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:27am
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Good point John. I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place with this one, but we will get it sorted out.
Adam
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Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:27am
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I am not aware of such notice laws in Ohio but as a land owner I can see his side because every fall I am hit with unsolcited offers for my place. After being stung a few times losing lime and fall applied fertilizer my tennant asked for a contract before he appplied lime which I gladly gave him. Sounds like legally it's yours in ILL law but if it isnt a big deal to you Id let him have it. |
Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 10:36am
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I went on google, found this for Missouri law and it also mentions other states differences around us. Here is the link;
http://aglaw.missouri.edu/Missouri%20farm%20lease%20laws.ppt - http://aglaw.missouri.edu/Missouri%20farm%20lease%20laws.ppt
A good read.
Google; Agriculture Lease Law your state ------------- |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 12:43pm
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Sending a notice that you have to go to the P.O. to sign for is easily avoided by not going. If he never goes in to get it, eventually it will be sent back as undelivered. If it is sent return receipt requested, that means the carrier signs off on a statement that it was delivered and you get the receipt sent to you. No getting out of that one.
I'd be inclined to pass on it this year and let baby have his way if it could impact you being able to rent other ground in the future. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: John D
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 3:59pm
| I agree with the 'by November 1st' here in Illinois, and definitely send them a certified letter saying they are out for next year. I think the previous tenant can limit your field work until after February 1st (or close to it) if they really want be a bear. Any seed or fertilizer purchased by them without an agreement with the landowner (cash rent, 50/50, etc) is their liability I'd think. But I'm no lawyer ......... |
Posted By: BigDaveinKY
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 4:15pm
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It's possible he may have had the land in a government program that pays him. Like the "right to farm" program, as my renter does with my land.
I took ten acres from my renter this past year to increase my hayfield since I retired and wanted more to do.
About the first of the year he came by and said "we need to have this put into your name. It don't pay much, but if they want to give it out we may as well take advantage of it."
He's right it don't pay much, but if you have a lot of land in the program it's worth not loosing.
To me, it's just a bit of my taxes back, that I'll have to pay taxes on again.
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Posted By: Brad(WI)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 4:39pm
| We are losing land this year in the same way. Two different farms we rent are having their kids work it next year. 40 acres each. Another 10 acres we seeded to alfalfa last year the owner is keeping to feed rescue horses. We lost our best land to a "megafarmer" who is trying to take over the area. It's 105 acres of prime ground which we fertilized extra this year for next years soybean crop. This summer he said he was giving up farming his home ground, so we would either lose the 105 or pick up another 400 acres. We weren't the high bidder and lost it. I'm not throwing a fit, I understand land comes and land goes. We work about 1700 acres, so 200 is a big deal to us. If he is getting upset at losing 20 acres, it's his fault. Send him the letter, don't take the chance giving him another year. The way he is acting, I would bet he won't put on any phosphorous or potash fertilizer. He will take a years fertilizer out of the soil reserve. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 5:09pm
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Don't send him the letter, deliver it in person, with a witness. Gerald J. |
Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 5:17pm
| Gerald, I am going to have to disagree. We have had issues with tenants ourselves (not land tenants, but house-renting tenants, rather) and the courts would rather see a certified letter then a hand delivered letter. A certified letter has proof. You have a receipt that it was delivered. They can't say "we never got it". When your in a court case it becomes a he said she said deal, and the outcome could be determined by what proof you have. Even if you bring a witness, it won't be very good at holding up, as you could get any friend or family member to say "yeah, I was there, he delivered it." with no hard copy of proof. |
Posted By: RSponenberg
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 5:59pm
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I'm having problems too with our tenant,But what he doesnt know is November 1st will be his last on our place!!! We do a year lease with tenants and thats it,no 2 or 4 or 5yr leases from us. This guy has leased for 2yrs now,no fertlizer,no potash,no lime,sprays 3 times to my one because he won't plant round up resisant beans or corn...Wont plow.... So your not alone.. |
Posted By: wjohn
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 6:11pm
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I wouldn't feel bad at all about notifying him. Just follow the law and he'll have to deal with it. Some people like to raise a stink about everything and get money if they think they can. We've got a neighbor that had a sissy fit when someone pulled a modular over land he was renting (they did have permission from the landowner to do this). The guy tried to claim that they had destroyed the alfalfa in the hay field. There hasn't been alfalfa in that field for as long as I can remember. And none came up the next spring either! He never did pay us back for when his cattle got out of his crappy fence and destroyed our market vegetable garden so I have no tolerance for this sort of thing. Hopefully your tenant isn't this ornery. Regardless, it's your family's land and you have the right to farm it so long as you notify him soon. ------------- 1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45 |
Posted By: RSponenberg
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 6:28pm
| Once I have the rent for this year wich he has to pay by November 1st,he WILL know!! Don't want him to back out of paying for this year,or it will cost me more money!!!! Lol. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 7:15pm
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You're not having cash rent paid in advance? From what I've found out in Iowa, it's customary to pay cash rent on Dec 1st for the following season. Makes sense to me. Get the rent first. That way if the tennant were to go bankrupt, you don't loose out on the rent. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: ILGLEANER
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 7:54pm
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Sandknob,
He had to have written notice by Sept. 1st or he has the right to farm it. Believe you me I know both sides of this story. You need to put legal description on it. I have a copy that I have recieved before. If you need a copy I will help you out. That is bullsh*t on the imputs,they are alot more now then they were there. He could sell them for a profit now. Just go ahead and send the notice right now so he knows for next year. Then expect him to harvest it as late as possible and rut it if he can. Do I know him?? I am going to the lawyers office tomorrow. Call me tomorrow night I will know without a doubt.
IG ------------- Education doesn't make you smart, it makes you educated. |
Posted By: Kenny(AR)
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 7:55pm
| In Arkansas the farmer has to be notified on or before the last day of June if there is no written contract. Don't think it has been changed in the last few years, I quit in 2002. |
Posted By: Bill Deppe/AC Salvag
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:01pm
| Another alternative to an 'official' notice is to have the Sheriff serve it through civil process service or even private process service. Did it for thirty years. |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:07pm
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Well, after discussing it with family they have decided to hold off another year and get everything done properly next year. I can wait, I just hope he will handle the change professionally (I'm not holding my breath).
IG, you probably know him he lives very close by to my parents.
Adam
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Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:10pm
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Someone on here mantioned about me picking other ground up (I had mentioned it before). This was part of that increase. The other (55 acres) is up in the air, but I still stand a good chance at it. I did pick up 5 more acres this year, and I am fighting to get it turned back into crop ground (it has been pasture). Ground is so hard a moldboard will not go in, and I broke three chiesel points as well. WE NEED RAIN!!!!!!!! Adam
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Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:11pm
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IG,
Did you get my message/question about the 200?
Adam
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Posted By: BurtIA
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:16pm
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October 31
http://web.extension.illinois.edu/state/newsdetail.cfm?NewsID=18967 - http://web.extension.illinois.edu/state/newsdetail.cfm?NewsID=18967
Sounds like you're going to wait but this is good information to know. ------------- Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid! John Wayne |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:18pm
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By the way,
Thanks to all for the replies. What a great site.
Adam
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Posted By: ILGLEANER
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 8:50pm
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Sandknob,
Does he drive red tractors and live north of your parents? Yes I saw your message. Darry Birch asked me about the 200 I told him I would let him know after harvest. I havent even moved it since I got it home. I hate to sell it,I would have to find another one . But everything is forsale for the right price....lol
IG ------------- Education doesn't make you smart, it makes you educated. |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 9:26pm
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IG, Bingo! I told Darry about the 200 as he was looking for a tractor a while back. Not sure what he decided. I know he was having trouble with his White. I will probably sell my 190, WD45, and A2 Gleaner to fund another tractor. The 190 runs like a top, but needs transmission work. I have been using it in 1st 2nd and 4th gear as it is and its been getting me by. Adam |
Posted By: Sandknob
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2010 at 9:27pm
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IG,
I meant Bingo on the red tractor comment!
Adam
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Posted By: RSponenberg
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2010 at 4:48pm
If it would be up to me,YES I would have at least half the rent up front.The problem is my 86yr old grandmother,this is the way they always did it.Can't get it thru her head that she may not get a cent and the tenant may have all his crops off!!!
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