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Ford versus Deere Power Shift transmissions

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Topic: Ford versus Deere Power Shift transmissions
Posted By: DrAllis
Subject: Ford versus Deere Power Shift transmissions
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 3:44pm
It's a pretty well known fact that the Select-O-Speed transmission that Ford introduced in 1959, didn't turn out too well for the company reliability wise. Then, in 1961 they put even more HP and weight in front of it in the 6000 Commander tractor model, which was a disaster. Deere and Company came with their first Power Shift transmission in 1964 in the 4020 and then 3020 tractors and was quite successful, at least in terms of holding up. Just a couple of thoughts as to why things went the way they did. Remember, FoMoCo was using  automotive transmission parts, with drums and bands (that needed adjusting) and clutch plates, sprag clutches and the like. I'm sure many of the parts came from the cars and pickup truck transmissions they were currently building at the time. And why not ?? Try to keep things as inexpensive as possible is good business, as long as it is reliable. Deere was a completely different design, and much similar to the power shift trans Caterpillar was using in their D-6 bulldozer, with only clutches and planetaries with no drums or bands to mess with. While it was quite reliable, the power losses were somewhat of a problem, as a 4020 PS was to be able to pull 4 bottom plows like the 4010 did, even tho it was 10 more HP than the 4010. The Ford transmission was much better that way, as it's HP losses were negligible compared to a regular gear transmission.  Deere was 8 speeds F and 4 reverse. Ford was 10-speeds F and 2-reverse. Another Ford negative was gears 1 thru 4 were under 2 MPH, so it was really only a 6 or 7 speed tranny at best. The Ford tranny also coasted in half the gear selections, where the Deere did not. It took until late 1975 for Allis-Chalmers to develop and release the first power shift transmission that had drawbar HP and reliability with a total of 12-speeds to work with. It was a new and completely different design, using a countershaft in the transmission with rotating clutch packs. So, at that time, A-C had the best deal going, even tho it wasn't a "FULL" power shift transmission. It too, had some growing pains, but as time went on more PST's were sold than Power Director tractors.



Replies:
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 4:06pm
What I always thought would have been nice, is a three speed, synchronized range gear box. Would have had 18 speeds, and with a sychronized ranges, would have been quick to change ranges. I know it would have been more cost, and more complexity, but would have nice on the feed wagon, and for hauling silage.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 4:34pm
I'd heard rumors that the next step was just that, but by then the Magnum all countershaft design transmission had come of age or soon to be, so it would have been obsolete without being a full power shift design. The latest 8000 series did have the 10% faster low range, which was a nice improvement over the original speed ranges.


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

I'd heard rumors that the next step was just that, but by then the Magnum all countershaft design transmission had come of age or soon to be, so it would have been obsolete without being a full power shift design. The latest 8000 series did have the 10% faster low range, which was a nice improvement over the original speed ranges.
The full powershift Magnum was a further refinement of the 5x88 series three range 18 speed. Syncro tri six I think they called it. The early Magnums even had IH cast into the cases.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: Kevin in WA
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2023 at 7:01pm
For tillage work I am not a fan of the 10% faster low range, makes each gear that much farther apart, on a transmission that doesn't have enough speeds already. For light work its fine I guess. 


Posted By: DanielW
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 11:13am
The story you always hear is: The head engineer in charge of the Ford SOS design (Harold Brock) was unhappy with the way it was produced. Ford developed the initial prototypes using some automotive transmission parts as Dr. mentioned, and also had to finesse the design to use as many of the regular tranny parts as possible. Many of the parts and subassemblies were meant to have their design finessed or beefed up before going into final production.

Then the sales team at Ford wanted to be the first to produce they type of tranny, so they pressured everyone into building them asap, despite the engineering department insisting they weren't ready to go on the market yet. Harold Brock insisted they were going to be a disaster, jumped ship (most folks say he was forced out for refusing to approve the SOS design for production). He then got hired by Deere and was one of the chief engineers to work on Deere's powershift, and later the head engineer for Deere's entire tractor line.

That's the story as it's always told, anyway. I'm sure there are other facts, and the sales team at Ford would tell a much different side of the story.


Posted By: 1955CA
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 11:42am
Originally posted by DanielW DanielW wrote:

The story you always hear is: The head engineer in charge of the Ford SOS design (Harold Brock) was unhappy with the way it was produced. Ford developed the initial prototypes using some automotive transmission parts as Dr. mentioned, and also had to finesse the design to use as many of the regular tranny parts as possible. Many of the parts and subassemblies were meant to have their design finessed or beefed up before going into final production.

Then the sales team at Ford wanted to be the first to produce they type of tranny, so they pressured everyone into building them asap, despite the engineering department insisting they weren't ready to go on the market yet. Harold Brock insisted they were going to be a disaster, jumped ship (most folks say he was forced out for refusing to approve the SOS design for production). He then got hired by Deere and was one of the chief engineers to work on Deere's powershift, and later the head engineer for Deere's entire tractor line.

That is the way it went. Mr. Brock kept telling Ford it needed more development but they wanted to rush it to market. And he indeed did jump ship to Deere and was the man behind their Powershift.

Oddly, I still want a Ford Powermaster with Select-O-Speed just for parade duty.

That's the story as it's always told, anyway. I'm sure there are other facts, and the sales team at Ford would tell a much different side of the story.


Posted By: 1955CA
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 11:44am
Speaking of transmissions that got a bad rap.....has anyone had luck with the New Holland Boomer/Farmall CVT transmissions they tried in their compacts from 2008? to 2013?
I have read of lots of failures in the originals, then they came out with a series 2 made in Mexico, then they just went away.


Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 11:45am
the biggest problem with the select o speed on the ones that are still working now is that  dumb shift cable conection / adjuster 


Posted By: 1963D17
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 3:26pm
I had a lot of NOS Ford SOS parts on hand at one time. The control cable must have been an issue as that's the one part I never had and the one part with the most requests. From what I have seen the SOS required a lot of attention to keep working. I to have read the Harold Brock story. I have done a couple Deere powershifts and for the most part they were tough. The exception was the later high HP models 4755-4960 where it was pushed to its limits. IH had the powershift built and ready to go when Tenneco bought them. A Magnum is an IH 5488 powershift with a Cummins engine and a Case style flip up hood. I own a 7120 Magnum and it would be hard to go back to a gear shift.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 5:19pm
And it's my understanding the IH Synchro-Tri-Six was the stepping stone to the full power shift transmission "countershaft design" for IH.  The Tri-Six was to be the standard tranny and the Power Shift was the option.  They are similar in design to a TerraGator Terra Shift or a Caterpillar 140-H transmission, both countershaft designs.


Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 5:36pm
AC was supposed to have had a powershift for the 7000 in conjunction with Allison and depending on who you talk to - most are now gone - something didn't work out - and it left the powershift to be developed by Joe Heopfl. (pronounced help full with out the p) 
Joe was the tranny engineer and struggled with getting the power shift unit into production. The only ran it in 2 - 7030-50's for testing beside the test stand. Besides loose bolts and flyball drillings and tolerances for seals and a few other issues corrected by 1978 (1976 was the first offering - called the small filter unit) the units were as dependable as one could expect. Joe struggled with gear ratios and went around the country in 1977 with E.W. (Swede) Muehlhauser getting feedback . He wanted to offer different ratios for different areas but the bean counters nixed the idea. He was not satisfied with the 1-2 shift spacing and mentioned closing up the ratios with a 3 speed rear shift but there just wasn't enough room w/o a housing change.  The size of the clutches were a hold over from the power director housings - in some cases 10 times larger than competition.  Just ramblin...    


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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..


Posted By: 1963D17
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 6:00pm
The caseIH powershift is still in production, but like the early Deere PS has been pushed to its limit on the high HP Magnum's. My brother rebuilt 8 of them this year. I believe MX315's and up. But it's a testament to the original design. 


Posted By: 1963D17
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 6:14pm
I will add. IH going to the tri-six transmission was like Deere jumping from the 2 cylinders to the 4010. iH had hung on way to long to it's antiquated sliding spur gear transmissions(1981) when the rest of the AG world had long adapted collar shift constant mesh transmissions. i may be wrong, but wan't Allis one of the 1st with the WD45?


Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 6:31pm
Considering the times, how did the JI Case transmission compare? I think it was called ‘select-o-matic’

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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 6:48pm
I think the late WD was the first farm tractor with a constant-mesh/helical gear transmission, which carried on into the WD-45 and then the D-17/D-19.


Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 7:36pm
Just my 2cents- wasnt Allis doing up great with the Power Director-- not many had anything reliable,, which was an amazing design,, the deal with Allison would have been good too - but when it came time to write checks - heard Allison wanted 2  times the inital quoted price ; just things Ive seen and heard,,


Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 8:47pm
Lars, that was Case-o-matic.
 Doc, had a fellow in the neighborhood that had 2 6000 Commanders Select-O-Speeds.   he did lot of custom work with them, from plowing to chopping. and everything between. He loved those tractors. Dad hired him to chop one year because it was so wet that we couldn't get out in the field with our heavy Papec chopper with the WD45 hooked onto the D17. Just get off the headland and we were stuck.  Ol' Beckmark said he would be right over at 2 and he came into the yard and out to the field and turned off the head land and the front end went sliding, he toed the brake to bring it around and that tractor just grunted and started blowing black smoke... OOps he had left the brakes latched together for road travel and when he took his foot off the brakes, the wheels started spinning faster and was now sliding faster down the hill sideways and the snoot  of the chopper hit the the sidewall of the Firestone tire and about 50 gallons of chloride went fly everywhere. What a sight, over the chopper, in the chopper box and even over the tractor and even ol Bill got wet. He never stopped, he pointed that tractor right up the hill and back to the headland. We got the wheel off and Bill took off and got a new 18.4 Good Year .  We get it on and looking... and he got mad, cuzz that GY was smaller in width and height. But he wasn't taking it back.  Fired up that 6000 and went to chopping right out there in the standing water in places, where we couldn't move. He had a little cylinder cut Ford chopper rated for 2-3 plow tractor and he would stuff that chopper full and be running down the rows cutting the stalks off at angle cuts with about a foot of stalk left behind bent over. I took a box out with the D17 and was running near him
on the hayfield in 4th low and he came to a low spot in the field and tyhe corn got shorter and that Commander had 3 grunts of smoke come out of her and I couldn't catch up to Bill with the throttle wide open on the 17. Splish splash, mud and water squirting out from under them tire flying everywhere, wish I had a movie camera back then. Another time, He had turned the pump up on them and was doing some custom plowing and the DNR spotter radioed to one of his buds and told him to tell Bill to turn those pumps down some because it looked like there was a fire where ever he went.  He didn't like the DNR and when that agent left, he shifted up another gear, and then the smoke really rolled. Reason he did that was the EPA/DNR had the county take their injectors of the old graders and send them in to be recalibrated and when the pumps came back, they were cracking head and Bill didn't want his grader's head cracked so he cracked the seal and gave them some fuel to cool on.   

 Seems to me there was a fellow that I had talked to many a years ago that worked on the Ford select-o-speeds, Think it was a Palmer Fossum. We had talked about a 921(?) Diesel Ford select-o-speed I bought and he said he would help me with getting it going. He could make those transmissions work almost better than new, but the fellow passed away before I got around to fixing it. Maybe will never get it fixed now.
  Oh yea, 25-30 years ago some guy bought Bill's Commanders and a few years ago I was to an auction and looking at a gray/blue 6000 Commander and it looked like Bill's but it was not sitting on 18.4 tires, but a smaller size like 15.5 or 16.9 and I started talking to a fellow about Bills old tractor and he said This was his tractor but it needed tires and he didn't like the cost of the 18.4 so he went smaller.. LOL


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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2023 at 11:10pm
“I think the late WD was the first farm tractor with a constant-mesh/helical gear transmission, which carried on into the WD-45 and then the D-17/D-19.”

Quite possibly. Oliver did not have it till the Super 55 in 1954, and next one was the 880 in 1959 or thereabouts.
Not sure when Ford started with helical gears.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 6:47am
Case-O-Matic was a purchased device from Twin-Disc Company (I think) and was just a torque converter with a lock-up clutch built into it.  Nice for some things. Useless for plowing in my view.


Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 9:08am
Originally posted by tbran tbran wrote:

AC was supposed to have had a powershift for the 7000 in conjunction with Allison and depending on who you talk to - most are now gone - something didn't work out - and it left the powershift to be developed by Joe Heopfl. (pronounced help full with out the p) 
Joe was the tranny engineer and struggled with getting the power shift unit into production. The only ran it in 2 - 7030-50's for testing beside the test stand. Besides loose bolts and flyball drillings and tolerances for seals and a few other issues corrected by 1978 (1976 was the first offering - called the small filter unit) the units were as dependable as one could expect. Joe struggled with gear ratios and went around the country in 1977 with E.W. (Swede) Muehlhauser getting feedback . He wanted to offer different ratios for different areas but the bean counters nixed the idea. He was not satisfied with the 1-2 shift spacing and mentioned closing up the ratios with a 3 speed rear shift but there just wasn't enough room w/o a housing change.  The size of the clutches were a hold over from the power director housings - in some cases 10 times larger than competition.  Just ramblin...    
Considering the 1960-70s era, IMO the AC 7000 series Power Director's 2 speed floor buttons on-the-go shift, was an awesome feature cause it enabled the operator to "left foot" floor buttons for speed selections during headland turns while right hand levered hydraulic controls of trailing implement & right foot tapped brake to release differential lock &/or tap wheel brake to assist turn. It was an added feature over AC's prior Power Director in their D series & 100 series tractors, which was great for those series. Likewise, the AC Power Shift transmission was shooting stars ahead of anything else in the industry.
Wonder what Joe Heopfl could have accomplished with his idea of a larger sized (transmission? rear end?)housing for his 3 speed rear shift request?? So by 3 speed rear shift, would it have converted the 12 speed PS to an 18 speed(6x3) or 36 speed(12x3) in 1978?  Interesting that prior to the 7000 series, AC heavily invested into the CNC machining, but later struggled to consider / allow a better/redesigned trans housing? Wouldn't that have dovetailed with CNC opportunities?


Posted By: DanielW
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Lars(wi) Lars(wi) wrote:

Considering the times, how did the JI Case transmission compare? I think it was called ‘select-o-matic’

I've had (and still have one) Case-O-Matics. Like the Allis power director, it was one of the few really robust/reliable of the early tranny variations (unlike Ford's selct-o-speed, IH's TA, etc.). They were excellent for pulling - put it in torque converter mode and just increase the throttle until in started to pull. Even back in the day before pulls got crazy they were banned from many tractor pulls because they'd wipe the board.

I think the main reason the Case-O-Matic didn't catch on big their strong-suits becoming obsolete: Their benefit was for heavy pulling/lugging - they'd maintain a constant pull by varying the ground speed and RPM to suit when in torque converter mode. They excelled at this, but they came right at the time when keeping constant RPM and steady ground speed was becoming more important than lugging capacity. You wouldn't want to run any PTO equipment in torque-converter mode, because your RPM and ground speed would be all over the place. Not that this was a problem - you'd just put the converter in locked mode and it would operate like a normal tractor, but it meant the torque converter aspect was just an extra complication that wasn't really doing anything for you.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2023 at 5:17pm
Case-O-Matic didn't go beyond the 65 HP model 830 either. That was the max HP they could make it work and stay cool under load.



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