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Allis/Farmall/Jd/ ETC Traction Control ?

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=198300
Printed Date: 24 Sep 2024 at 3:29pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Allis/Farmall/Jd/ ETC Traction Control ?
Posted By: Macon Rounds
Subject: Allis/Farmall/Jd/ ETC Traction Control ?
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 6:16pm
When did the different tractor manufacturers implement traction control ?

I say traction control because every manufacturer had thier own name for lifting a tillage implement to load the rear of the tractor for Traction. And subsequently lowering it back down when sensing hich was unloaded.

Allis is Traction Boost Implemented 19_ _ ?

Farmall is Draft Control implemented 19_ _?

Ford / Ferguson ???

John Deer ????

Minni Mo ?????

Oliver

Cockshutt

Etc ?

I believe Ford/Ferguson was the 1st

I'll try to keep updating this as our information in confirmed.

Let's have a fun informative thread here.



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The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate



Replies:
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 6:40pm
I think IH started with the second generation Fast Hitch and the Tel-a-Depth. Which would be very late 400(1956?)to 450 and 560.

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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 7:05pm
Ford/ Massey weren't activated by the draft. They were crushing the top link. So, pull type implements could never be used with their system.  A-C  WD 1948 true activation from the pull point.


Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 7:45pm
So

Would tracton control on a Allis WD work on a pull type plow ?

Just trying to educate myself.

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The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 8:45pm
With a Traction Booster drawbar, yes.


Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2023 at 8:55pm
ok lets make it both mounted draft control and drawbar draft control


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 6:14am
I think I'm correct on this, but the original Farmall "fast hitch" didn't use hydraulics or sensing to trigger hydraulics for weight transfer. They had that huge wishbone shaped device under the rear end that worked like a lever. The harder it got pulled on, the more it moved to the rear and pivoted the lifting spears up, thus in a different kind of way to transfer implement weight. I've never run one, so I can't speak to its performance. But it looks like it wasn't easily adjusted for conditions or the TERRAIN (up down hills and swales) and the fact that it was replaced (after A-C patents ran out ?) with a different way of working by the 460/560 generation, makes me think it was less than stellar. But, it was better than what they had before....nothing. Allis-Chalmers Traction Booster itself evolved too. From the beginning, pull type implements weren't in the picture and the control of the system was thru one-lever, after making some minor adjustments to the hyd pump itself. Next, was the Traction Booster gauge on the WD45 to help the operator use the system and then the Transport valve for semi-mounted implements and eventually the Traction Booster drawbar for fully pull type implements.  When the D14-17 were introduced, the Traction Booster was once again improved upon. Now, we had a two-lever system that kept your weight transfer setting locked, so when you made your turn at the fields end, it was already set when you dropped the implement back in the ground. Also, in 1959ish there was a rate-of-drop built into the lowered to make the system perform even better with larger heavier implements. When the mighty One-Ninety tractor came out in 1964, the Traction Booster system had built-in feed-back linkage to help with over sensing and keep implement depth more consistent. Again, implements were getting longer and some tweaking was made to keep ahead of competitors. Allis always had a system that could easily be changed/adjusted on-the-go from the seat. Not everyone could do that.


Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 6:33am
The D10/12 traction booster system works excellent. I haven't used a Series 1 but they are similar to the CA style, but the Series 2 advanced this even further and the Series 3 was even better. Yes this is the 1960's but AC by then had perfected the system and it allowed smaller tractors to perform better in the field.
There are some good demos of this on youtube showing D19/21's using and not using the system and how it aids traction.



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Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD


Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 6:35am
That is interesting.

I knew there was old and new style Fast Hich for IH but I never knew the difference.

Also I never saw a draft sensing draw bar for a Wd.

Isn't similar to the D and 100 series ?

I'll add photos of what I have.

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The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate


Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 6:54am
Nearly everyone has the misinformed idea the there was a Ford/Ferguson tractor. Truth is the Ford 9N had the Ferguson 3pt hitch system, beginning in 1939. This should be clear to anyone reading the 2 grill badges The top one being the Ford oval logo, the bottom one being "Ferguson System".
   The Ferguson System on the Ford tractor was due to the "handshake agreement" between Henry Ford and Harry Ferguson for the use of Ferguson's system with payment of royalty fees to Harry Ferguson. This agreement carried onto production of the 2N Ford tractor.  When Ford developed the 8N Tractor, Henry Ford decided not to continue paying Harry Ferguson royalties, leading to a long term lawsuit against Henry Ford and the Ford company. Ford eventually lost as he delayed everything possible to drag out things as long as possible. This led to Harry Ferguson nearly going bankrupt, because of extensive lawyer fees and Ford never paid up as ordered by the courts. 


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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY


Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 7:07am

If you can’t do your own depth control you shouldn’t be on a tractor.  


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8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 7:23am
The snap-coupler Traction Booster "drawbar" for pull-type implements was in the WD45 era and worked on the WD too. Also carried on into the D-series and 100 series, if it was a snap-coupler hitch tractor. They also created a Traction Booster drawbar for Cat #2 and #3  three-point hitches used on the 190's/D21's and newer.


Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 7:58am
I'll post photos of what I have.

But like most of the snap coupler equipment

The hardest thing is getting it hooked to the tractor.








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The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 8:07am
The most common use for the Traction Booster drawbar was on a disc. It became part of the disc as a 3 1/2 ft pivoting extension of the tongue and had the snap-coupler eye and lifting links built into it. Before it was created, the disc was hitched very close to the tractor and you had to set the rear wheels clear wide to be able to turn on the field ends. This longer TBD attachment made your turns normal for shortness.


Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 7:13pm
hope someones knows about the olivers and molines  i really like the oliver tractors


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 9:43am
Originally posted by exSW exSW wrote:

I think IH started with the second generation Fast Hitch and the Tel-a-Depth. Which would be very late 400(1956?)to 450 and 560.
A little more on the late IH FH traction control. 
On the left rear corner of the operators platform is a vertically operated lever with notch settings.It is attached to an eccentric in the FH an that mechanically sets wheel slip. It works. Pull it all the way up you'll reduce wheel slip to zero. And possibly break things.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 9:59am
I like that. "And possibly break things" .......


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 11:29am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

I like that. "And possibly break things" .......
A contributing factor in the early 560 rearend fiasco. An under speced bullgear bearing( the whole problem in a nut shell), hard working ground and reducing slip to zero through this device. 


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 11:34am
I'm almost 70 and only heard about the "560" rear end problems probably 4 or 5 years ago. It was pretty bad, wasn't it ?? And the inner axle bearing was the culprit  ?? which was the same location M-SuM-400-450's had some troubles with when a ball would get out of the inner axle bearing and roll between the bull gear and the bottom of the rear end case. There wasn't room for that ball to be there and it would poke a hole in the bottom of the case.


Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 6:48pm
Yes: those inner axle ball bearings near the bull gears on Farmalls was a weak link in their rears, they were prone to destruction in just a farm tractor if not noticed by the operator. They would make a very distinctive sound that you didn't want to ignore. 
   In the 70s we were using M rears in modifieds. We found many things that gave up as we increased the horsepower. First the pilot bearing at the front of the main shaft gave up allowing the top shaft to lift and destroy the transmission gears. So the first fix was replacing the ball bearing with a roller bearing and only giving that bearing a life of about 30 runs. Then we remade the entire input and constant mesh gears with wider gears with heavier bearings also eliminating 4th & 5th gears with a ratio change speeding 3 in an M to faster than 4th in a SuM. Then later with roller bearings replacing the inner axle bearing  and welded in 5th gear we were able to reliably put 1500 HP through an M rear. We did twist axles, but never broke one. 


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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY


Posted By: Dave (Mid-MI)
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 7:24pm
Update to PaulB's post. Henry Ford died in 1947, before the 8N came out. Henry Ford II made the decision not to honor his grandfather's handshake agreement with Harry Ferguson.


Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 8:23am
We all know that farmall is a respectibal tractor
but this thread is on traction control not tractor pulling.

We're getting off topic here .

So, if i understand correctly,
1956 was 1st year for farmall draft control ?

What was it called ?



-------------
The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 8:56am
According to my 450 op. manual, it's called "Traction control".


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 10:24am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

I'm almost 70 and only heard about the "560" rear end problems probably 4 or 5 years ago. It was pretty bad, wasn't it ?? And the inner axle bearing was the culprit  ?? which was the same location M-SuM-400-450's had some troubles with when a ball would get out of the inner axle bearing and roll between the bull gear and the bottom of the rear end case. There wasn't room for that ball to be there and it would poke a hole in the bottom of the case.
Since I've owned an early('59) 560 for 34 years I've heard quite a bit. Mine has the update and it's ran the subsoiler two foot deep in clay and hung in there. How IH missed it is a mystery. It was a known problem in 400 and 450's with all the M&W goodies. A liitle known fact is JD had rearend issues with 4010's in severe service but it was handed much more descreatly. This helps explain the amount of iron in the 706/806's.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: Randy Magnum
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 11:22am
Was Moline’s Tel-O-Flo a draft control system? Or just the hydraulic system?


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Macon Rounds Macon Rounds wrote:

We all know that farmall is a respectibal tractor
but this thread is on traction control not tractor pulling.

We're getting off topic here .

So, if i understand correctly,
1956 was 1st year for farmall draft control ?

What was it called ?

I think 1956 would be about right. I've seen late 400's with the newer FH. But FH was retrofitable back to the MTA(the rearends were already drilled and tapped. And IH sold them for just thst purpose.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 4:37pm
I believe the 4010 rear end issues (early on) were discovered by Deere in their 24-7 race track continuous day-after-day-after-day testing. The weak link was the differential carrier housing when 100% loaded continuously in LOW gear. If there was something else, I hadn't heard about it.


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 5:44pm
Looked up Farmall 450 "Traction Control" information. It's mechanical, not hydraulic, skirting the Allis patent design. Tries to achieve the same thing, but doing it differently. Interestingly, this 500 pound hunk of iron under the belly actually pulls from the same general area of the Allis snap-coupler bell !!!!!!!!! How about that !!!   It's the best they ever had at the time, but shouldn't match Traction Booster because it isn't easily or infinitely adjustable (hyd lever settings) and because they never offered it for pull type implements.


Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 7:45pm
Yea

From all my IH friends which are MANY that system never worked very well.

Plowing in loamy soils can be done with any system.
But varying clay/ loamy soils will test the best systems. Allis if adjusted properly will plow thru it all......

Not being brand favorable.
But IH didn't hold a candle to Allis Tracton Boost which is still viable in today's small farms.

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The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 9:13pm
TB worked good on my 220 30? yrs ago after pump was turned up. Before it was running out of power before the "boost" overcame the draft! How did the 7-8000's do with TB and a plow? Was it as good as the WD45?


Posted By: 1963D17
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 12:02am
IH fast hitch went to hydraulic control as an option on 460/560's. It was called teledepth. A rod on the left side hooked to the fast hitch lift arm. Went forward to a bellcrank and up to the fast hitch valve. In the teledepth FH valve was a set of 3 small bevel gears that are controlled by the valve control handle on the dash. The center gear of the three moved a spool in the valve It worked but was a bit mickey mouse. The bevel gears would occasionally strip off the teeth or shear the pin that held them in the cross shaft. Which led to the miserable job of re-timing them. Yes they are timed. And then there is all the floppy linkage/yoke beam on the back that I am sure got loose shortly after new. It's impossible to back a wagon with a 560 as the fast hitch beam is the drawbar and it flops from one side to the other. It wasnt until the 706/806 came out that fast hitch finally was at it's best. But by then it was obsolete in the AG world. I own 460's thru 806's. Love the 706/806 fast hitch. I also own WD's thru D17. The snap-tach was a far simpler set up. 


Posted By: Randy Magnum
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 10:49am
“Snap tach” is a malapropism I’ve seen used extensively on the redpower site.


Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 5:17pm
.

Ferguson three point was a true improvement to traction and tractor safety ( the reason Ferguson pursued the design, the tractor couldn't flip over). 

+1 Ford-II was the one to break the royalty deal and Ferguson set up a Detroit factory to make Ferguson tractors in the US. Eventually Ferguson merged with Massey Harris.

The AC system is really the Ferguson system with the draft link on the bottom. An upside down Ferguson system that went unnoticed by patent attorneys. That's why it worked.

IH and JD tried other systems. I still remember riding on our Farmall 806 pulling five bottoms when I must have been three years old and we struck a root and that tractor reared into the air. The world was moving the Goliath of a tractor! It had the underslung fast hitch. Obviously imperfect in operation.

When Ferguson patents ran out it became the default for all modern tractors.

.

.


Posted By: Macon Rounds
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 7:19pm
Comparing Ford/Ferguson top link sensing to Allis belly sensing it is upside down but apples and oranges.

Yes they both use hydraulics but were do you draw the line for patient infringements.
Allis uses direct pressure and Ford/Ferguson use indirect presure.

Not understanding patent rights myself. I would thing anything with 4 wheels an engine and transmission could be an infringement.

I am glad that the three point hitch was universally adopted cause the snap coupler design can be extremely frustrating if you are hooking up implements by yourself.

Like i mentioned I really don't understand patent rights.
No offense meant.




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The Allis "D" Series Tractors, Gravely Walk behind Tractors, Cowboy Action Shooting !!!!!!! And Checkmate


Posted By: Randy Magnum
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2023 at 8:48pm
The only time i ever had trouble hooking up snap coupler implements is if i parked them on uneven ground. If they’re flat and level, I don’t even need to leave the seat on a wd45.

I’ve been pretty disgruntled with 3 pt hitch equipment before though. Especially if the arms don’t extend or there isn’t winging adjustment on both arms, or if there’s no rear control for the 3pt. (All these points are excellent traits of the 100 series tractors)


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2023 at 6:22pm
I like SC but mines a b!tch. That hook will NOT  let go. Adjust the chain, back up, play with the implement you (nearly) always end up sticking a prybar in there to get it started. Hookup is rarely a problem. 
Most of the people who complain about Fast Hitch are like those who complain about Gleaners. They never sat down and read the manual to learn the settings and adjustments.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2023 at 7:01pm
Shorten the chain 2 links. WD45, correct ??


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2023 at 7:54am
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Shorten the chain 2 links. WD45, correct ??
'52 WD with the upgrade. I've played with the chain. The problem is the hook has very little if any wear. Not a bad problem to have. Hooking up is no problem. Dropping the implement is a different story.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2023 at 1:33pm
You surely know to push a little in reverse then depress lever to get unhooked? Hand clutch reverse,left foot depress lever, release hand clutch and slip into fwd gear (3rd usually) and drive away. For those who insist on foot clutch shifting I don't know how your left foot can do 2 things at once..... It works good here.


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2023 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

You surely know to push a little in reverse then depress lever to get unhooked? Hand clutch reverse,left foot depress lever, release hand clutch and slip into fwd gear (3rd usually) and drive away. For those who insist on foot clutch shifting I don't know how your left foot can do 2 things at once..... It works good here.
Yes. Doesn't help. I think it's a issue of little to no wear and rust.


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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2023 at 5:34pm
I know, if your implement depth (a plow) is set quite deep, the tongue eye is too tall and puts the snap coupler bell on a bind. Same way if the tongue is too low. Ideally, the eye should be at the correct height for the easiest unhooking as you back into the implement and pull down on the handle.


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2023 at 4:38am
Like the Doctor says, tongue height is key. I shoot for 14", thought 13 might be better for tractors with smaller tires. Both my 45's have 16.9X28's.


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2023 at 7:58am
I did a little research on this matter. These are the weights of different model tractors from the era discussed in this thread. Numbers from tractor data, heaviest one listed.
Allis)
WD 45 4285 Lbs.
D-17 4670 Lbs.
IH)
M 4858 Lbs,
Super M 5603 Lbs,
Super MD 5770 Lbs.
350 5475 Lbs.
400 6300 Lbs.
450 6519 Lbs.
460 6055 Lbs.
Case)
400 6000 Lbs.
Oliver)
88 5000 Lbs.
Super 88 5400 Lbs.
JD)
60 5800 Lbs.
70 7079 Lbs.
The point of this post is that our AC's are lighter in general than other machines of that time-frame and size. A really good form of traction control was more necessary. I probably pay closer attention to Orange and Red tractors at the plow-days I go to than other colors and what I see is that neither of those have much trouble with traction. Lots of the Red ones are using pull-type plows where traction-control is null. Really don't see many fast-hitch plows for some reason?

Something else, I've heard some knocks on the fast-hitch, not just here even on Red Power that ground clearance could be an issue. The wishbone does decrease clearance compared to a comparable model with three point. Well curiosity hit me. Measured the clearance for the D-17 and the 450, They are just a few feet apart right now. D-17 was 11", 450 was 14". Full disclosure, this is not a fair comparison. 17 has tiny, 13.6x28, rubber on it and the 450 has big, brand new 16.9x38's on it. I think they are about 5" taller than the 15.5's were. I will do some more measuring today for comparisons sake. Will get data from the other D-17 with 16.9's, at least one 45, also with 16.9's, maybe a WD with 14.9's, a 756 with fast-hitch, and an 856 with three point. The last one will be gaining ground clearance next year when the new rubber goes on.


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2023 at 8:28am
My 560 has 16.9x38's ground clearance has never been an issue. Stalks will pluck out cheap low tension chinese hairpins so I don't use those.
As to why people don't use FH plows. Except for the coulters nearly all the adjustment is in the FH itself. Once you READ THE MANUAL it's pretty straight foward. I am by no means a plowman but I know what it's supposed to look like when you're done and both my 560 and 706(former) do a great job running a consistent 7+ inches deep. The 560 especially. Hock it in as deep as it will go,set the traction control and go. Pull the T/A occasionally.



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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2023 at 8:29am
The A-C snap-coupler bell doesn't have quite as wide of a swath as that wishbone frame on a fast hitch. Not to say it doesn't get down in the mud sometimes, but I don't think as much of a hinderance as the IH system.


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2023 at 8:36am
I've raked hay with both. FH all you do is lift the drawbar a couple feet and you cleared the build up. Gotta use a short pin with the WD.

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Learning AC...slowly


Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2023 at 8:30am
Everything I measured yesterday was between 13" to 15". This kind of surprised me. Of course if these were taken on concrete the measurements would vary a bit. Really thought the 856 would have more clearance than the others, it has a little more but not much. It will gain a couple inches next year when the new rubber goes on however!

The fast hitch does look like it could be a pain while raking/baling hay.


Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2023 at 8:39am
Originally posted by IBWD MIke IBWD MIke wrote:


The fast hitch does look like it could be a pain while raking/baling hay.
It really isn't. I use a #16 IH rake and my buddy uses a #35 behind his 560. I have 16.9's he has 18.4's. Just don't lock the FH and you can raise and lower to the perfect rake height.


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Learning AC...slowly



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