Grain hauling shift-on-the-roll Power Director
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=198230
Printed Date: 24 Sep 2024 at 5:24pm
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Topic: Grain hauling shift-on-the-roll Power Director
Posted By: DrAllis
Subject: Grain hauling shift-on-the-roll Power Director
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 6:40am
| Helped a new-by to grain hauling the other day. He was using a 7040 tractor with Power Director transmission. His complaint was getting the loaded wagon going down the road by slipping the clutch a lot in 5th gear, and was concerned about damaging the clutch with this technique. So, here's the way to do it and it works well. Get the tractor and wagon out on the road where it's level. Shift to 3rd gear High range (low button) and set the throttle at 1700 RPM. Ease out steadily on the clutch and it will get the load rolling. Use the foot throttle and govern the engine out fully to high idle. Release the foot throttle and pop the gearshift into neutral. As soon as the tach hits 1700 RPM the gearshift will drop right into 5th gear. Take it from there. This works very well. If you're not gifted when it comes to doing this sort of thing, then don't do it. Black chassis tractors need a well lubed shift lever to accomplish this. 8000 series not near as easy without a foot throttle. I've built one foot throttle for an 8050 and it works fine. This assumes an accurate tachometer. Maybe try it first without a wagon behind you to get the hang of it. |
Replies:
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 7:46am
| I find I just shift them like the semis, no clutch, and start out in 1st, use foot throttle as you would any manual transmission, yes the 8000 series requires a lot of swatting flies movements in the cab with no foot throttle |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 8:29am
??? Seriously?! 
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Amos wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 9:01am
| My method makes for little chance of missing it. You want to shift it that many times, great. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 9:20am
Yup. Upshifting is easy, downshifting with that heavy flywheel and two-stage clutch in my little compact diesel tractor, fuggedaboudit!
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 11:37am
So you’re answering for someone else…, and you say it’s easy, and then mention your little compact tractor. Have you done this in a sizable Allis PD tractor like in this topic? I’ve been driving tractors for 50 years or so, of several different colors. Many times, up shifting or down shifting I can pull of a smooth slide in with no clutch. I don’t care for it with a heavy load, but depends. My 7045 iPD is by far the most difficult I’ve ever tried, to the point where I basically don’t unless very special circumstances like a very heavy grain cart I may try a rolling shift with the clutch for road gear. Guess that’s why the operating instructions say depress clutch and come to a complete stop to shift. I get what doc is saying and why. But all 5 gears? Wow. |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 12:39pm
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Let me say two things here, every tractor has its own quirks to shifting up, my 305 likes it in high PD, my 8030 and 7580, prefer low PD And when you have a load behind the 7580 in high range, you will understand why I start in first, it has so much moving mechanical resistance in high you need the lower gears to get it moving, at least that is my theory for why it is so hard to get going in high. I try to slip clutches as little as possible, they are good tractors, just take some learning to get acquainted with. The Dr's method is most likely the easiest to get on to, he has more experience with all allis equipment than the amount that I run mine.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 2:22pm
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I definitely get the “why”. “Need” even. And to me, it sucks that you basically have to do something it’s no designed to do in order to do this shift. The tractors are yours. Do as you need to 🤷♂️ |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 4:38pm
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Practice helps. A knowledgeable instructor like DrAllis is a huge asset to a newby operator. The floor gear shift stick in the 7040 PD would allow a better feel to operator that’s roll-shifting as stick is a direct link to transmission shift collars. So it’s a good setup for a newby. In the later model tractors with cable linkages it helps if cables/swivels/pins are in good shape & lubed well. But like Amos stated, each tractor’s transmission usually has small quirks about what slides or doesn’t. Can usually be done with most any manual transmission given enough practice. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 6:50pm
| It’s how much damage is done while you get the practice in is what bothers me. Most any manual transmission, I suppose, but square cut gears and no synchronizers aren’t the ideal setup for it. |
Posted By: 1963D17
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 7:51pm
| Double clutch shifted my 2-135 White for years that way from 4th to 6th. A foot throttle would definitely mad it easier. I can't imagine how many clutches I would have went thru otherwise. Any constant mesh transmission should be able to be double clutch shifted. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 8:08pm
| The problem with trying to use the hydraulic applied clutch and hydraulic applied transmission brake, is just that.....getting the clutch to release and not apply the trans brake for even a moment, while shifting. It just works best to do the 1700 rpm hand throttle setting to full throttle with your foot, release and shift 3 to 5 and don't touch the clutch pedal. 1700 RPM is fast enough that the turbo will spool up just fine as you are on the level and rolling with your load. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 8:41pm
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Posted By: skateboarder68
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 8:43pm
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I’ve done similar on a 7045 with T handle. High range 4th gear, give it some throttle with your foot, release clutch. Get load moving and when rpms get above 2000, let off foot throttle while simultaneously engaging clutch (not all the way to the floor) and make a nice swift motion from 4th to 5th. ------------- Orange & Silver still earnin their keep on the farm: R62, Series IV D17 nf, 185, 6080, 6080 fwa, 220, 1968 D21, 7045, DT240. |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 8:45pm
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Or one could use a truck that was designed to shift up through all the gears while moving, has good brakes, and is meant to travel at roads speeds. And in theory adequate lights. ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: Unit3
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 10:14pm
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I start the 1980 7080 with the grain cart in 2nd gear high range and low floor button in the field. A little down hill run to get going is always welcome. I rev it to 1800 rpm, let go the foot throttle. I use the clutch, and shift to 3rd. I can walk it up through the gears, but I can’t down shift. ------------- 2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 10:51pm
| its all about the right rpms when you shift up or down , when the rpms are right it will suck the shifter right out of your hand and slip right in no grinding no clanging and banging , it does help to have spent many hours behind the wheel of a 1969 mack (way underpowered and allways way overwieght ) with a 5x4 transmsisions |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 9:34am
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Very surprising conversation. Often the first piece of advice given:Read the operator’s manual! 
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Posted By: SLee(IA)
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 1:32pm
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7580 with a Detroit but shifts thru the gears pretty smooth. Hope the link works. Steve https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWwF5o-sVgs" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWwF5o-sVgs
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 5:50pm
| Just like round baling with a One Eighty or 190,,, come to a stop ; wrap the bale , slide the main transmission from 2- or 3 rd, to reverse without grinding at all - using the famous Allis Powerdirector of coarse ! Gotta play with it and fine tune a little but it works |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 6:37pm
Well, not just like that though. PD is a different setup. |
Posted By: plummerscarin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 8:46pm
| Well this subject came at the right time. I just pulled a pair of wagons in to town with the 7045 PD. Granted it was a bit rough learning curve but the job is done. Could not have pulled this off without the Docs advice. Thank you Dr Allis. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 8:17am
| Maybe I’ll give double clutching another try. I assume that’s what is being done in the 7580 video? That and get my tachometer working and give docs method a go. The heaviest load I’ve hauled is a 400 bushel cart, 375 realistically, and I didn’t have that far to go so just used like 3rd or 4th. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 8:32am
| DON'T touch the clutch !!! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 8:46am
I like the idea of your method. But….the 7580 is doing more than 1 shift right? How? And somehow Amos starts in first, and never uses the clutch! I can’t imagine the pain put into gears over the course of learning that feel!
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 10:21am
| Just TRY 3rd to 5th and see how it works. I realize the 7580 is HEAVY, but 3rd gear ain't that tall to start out in. 1700 RPM might be a little slow if your high idle is 2800. Might try 18-1900. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 11:25am
Yessir, like I said, I like your method, will be the first I try. Just gotta get my tach working, and lube my cables. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 5:07pm
| Yup know that Tbone,,,, just sometimes ya gotta understand how things work !!! LOL,,, |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 5:18pm
| I just did some quick math here to backup my claim. A 7040 with 18.4 x 38 tires at 2550 RPM high idle in 3rd gear high range (LOW button) is moving 11.2 MPH. 5th gear high range (LOW button) at 1694 RPM is 11.2 MPH. If the engine runs 2800 high idle (7080/7580) the shift number changes to 1850 RPM. Setting the hand throttle to the specific correct number is key. You just wait until the engine drops and the governor catches it and pull it into 5th. Don't think you can watch the tach !! The tach needle doesn't move at the same speed as the engine decelerates. If you're going to error on that low set shift speed, it's better to be 50 RPM too slow than 50 RPM too high. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 8:14pm
Or what people mean. |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 8:43pm
Tbone, you want to know something? I just got the 7580 in July, have probably spent 4 times as much time unloading my demco 850 grain cart as I have actually driving it forwards or reverse. i cut my teeth learning to shift manual transmissions, so to speak, driving old gas powered single axle trucks. I have put some miles on highway semi trucks, but probably the most educational machine I ran, when it comes to stick shifting is a timberjack log skidder with a two stroke detroit. it taught me feel the gearshift, believe it or not it talks to you without grinding. My 7580 has the floor shifter, and honestly I find it's feel way easier to get onto than the consol shift of the 305 or 8030. The 7580 has to be wound right up Like Doc says to make your shift, kinda sounds like a Detroit, to keep the boost there to keep her rolling. I will try to grab some video of myself shifting the 7580 And don't get me wrong, the Doc's method I can guarantee, without even trying it will work, I just kind of do things different way, and my other tractors never pull much of a load down the road, just a corn planter for the 8030 and a cultivator on the 305, neither of which weigh 34 tonne like my loaded grain buggy
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 9:06pm
I get it Amos. And I think a floor shifter would be better. My 7045 protests loudly if you ain’t perfect. Then that writing, right there on the console, that says come to a complete stop! 
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