185 help diagnose
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=196547
Printed Date: 25 Sep 2024 at 1:20pm
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Topic: 185 help diagnose
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Subject: 185 help diagnose
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 5:21pm
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Please help me diagnose a power issue with my 1979 185D. Pulling 8ft AC brush hog. Never a power issue before but this afternoon started to lose power so shut PTO off, by the time I made it back to shed wouldn't even throttle past idle. Let it sit for 5 min or so, thought maybe I hadn't pulled injection pump plunger out all the way when I started it. So started it back up, ran fine, with pto on for a couple of minutes then lost all power til it died. Injection pump issue? Need to bleed fuel from sediment bowl? Seems like a (lack of) fuel issue but I'm open to any suggestions. Thank you, Roger |
Replies:
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 6:05pm
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May be dirt in the sediment bowl screen or fuel filter. If it is surging, it could be the governor flex ring inside the pump. Flex rings are cheap but require some knowledge to change out. If it is the flex ring, install the metal replacement. It is more expensive but well worth the expense. Today's diesel fuel does not work well, over the long run, with the plastic flex rings. |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 6:09pm
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Sounds like maybe flex ring is coming apart. Which means pump will need rebuilding. Take the return line off top of pump. See if there’s gunk caught up in there. There’s a little glass ball as a check valve that the flex ring particles collect against. Others with more knowledge will chime in
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 7:13pm
| ALWAYS start by removing the glass sediment bowl and removing the screen and throw the screen away. Then, with the bowl removed, turn on the petcock 100% and there should be two streams of fuel gushing (not one stream..TWO) out of the base. Catch the fuel in a gallon container and it absolutely MUST flow one gallon in LESS than 10 minutes. If the fuel flow is less than that, you have a blockage at the tank outlet or the inlet to the sediment bowl base. This must be corrected FIRST !!! before going on to a proper and correct diagnosis. The injection pump may well need to be overhauled BUT, until you correct fuel delivery first, you are spinning your wheels. |
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 7:53pm
3:18 to fill 1 gal ice cream tub. Assuming screen is same as Series IV D17 screen? Getting ready to put new screen on to see of that improves. Situation. Hoping it will but doubtful. Twice when it powered down I let it sit for 10 min then it would drive again back to shed. 
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 8:43pm
| I said throw the screen away. |
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 9:20pm
| I did throw the old one away. Also engine did not surge at all. Just jept losing rpms |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 9:25pm
| Let me be more clear.....throw the new one away too. Sounds like time to overhaul the RoosaMaster injection pump. With the throttle set at half throttle or more and the engine slowing down to stall, loosen one or both of the screws on the inj pumps timing window on the side so it can leak fuel. If it revs up the pump needs attention. |
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 9:54pm
| Will do this next step tomorrow and keep you posted. Thank you for your assistance. Roger |
Posted By: cowkicker
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2023 at 11:08pm
| First, take your sediment bowl inlet line off and make sure plenty of fuel is flowing. my tank had some foreign stuff in it and it would collect in the top of sediment bowl neck, causing slow flow. I bypassed the sediment bowl by sliding a rubber hose over the metal lines and used an inline filter. The inline filter has more capacity, I did have to clean it a couole of times but now it is doing great. Plan on putting lines back on the sediment bowl without a filter sometime just to make it look better |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 6:20am
| As everyone is saying, it is probably the flex ring in the injection pump, but (as cowkicker said) I have seen the inlet of the sediment bowl plug up with crap and severely restrict fuel flow. Always check the simple things first! |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 8:27am
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Doc means you don't need any screen in the sediment bowl. The Fuel filter will catch the debris. I had the same issue a few years ago with my 185. It would run fine for a coupe days then loose power and die. start it up and it'd be fine for a couple more days. Rebuilt the pump and it's been great ever sence.
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Posted By: gleaner1
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 11:44am
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If you get good flow to the injection pump, before you get to excited and pull that pump. Remember there is that last resort screen in the inlet side of the pump. Pull all that assembly out and clean it. I had this problem on a 7030. Somehow after that many years that screen was plugged. How it gets through the filters is beyond me. ------------- ALLIS CHALMERS "The color is orange" |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 1:14pm
| My dollar says it's an original 44 yr old pump and the flex ring has had it!! It's not the hours so much as the years. |
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 5:49pm
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Well I didn't get a chance to loosen the screws on the timing window yet. Cleaned sediment bowl, changed fuel filter, started it, drove it around shed to better position it for work and it lost power and died. By the way, my pump doesn't have a timing window on it, rather a simple rectangle plate. Is that a sign it's been rebuilt before? I'm the 2nd owner, now for just two years. It's been a great upgrade from a Series IV '17. Questions I have now... Would you exchange or rebuild the pump? Either way, would you go through a dealer (nearest one is an hour away) or is there a better rebuild solution other than a dealer? Would you replace the injectors at this same time? Thank you again for all the responses. Roger |
Posted By: sparky
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 6:27pm
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It’s time to dial 1-800-InjpumpEd. Does great work. ------------- It's the color tractor my grandpa had! |
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 6:34pm
| The little rectangular plate is what you want to loosen to see if the engine picks back up. The timing marks for the pump are behind the plate. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 7:15pm
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Get your pump rebuilt by a reputable shop. If it still dies after cleaning the supply side, it's a sure bet the return side is plugged up with the broken down flex ring material. I rebuild a bunch of them here, and if you have no one local to you, you can ship it to me. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 8:26pm
| When your pump acts up, like described above, save a lot of time and problems by loosening the two screws on timing window until fuel runs out. If it runs OK then, flex ring is plugging return. Don't change filter, pull settlement bowl, or unhook lines. All you are doing is getting air in lines and pump creating more problems. Do the easiest first. MACK |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2023 at 8:26pm
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If you do in fact need a rebuild Send it to Ed, he does great work. If you have a question he is a phone call away. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 8:56am
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Had time yesterday evening to loosen the timing window plate. Ran better as predicted, power issue returned not long after tightening the plate screws back. Have PMd InjpumpEd. If anyone would like to offer step process for removal so I can send it off, that'd be great. Have a 500 loader on tractor, hoping the brace arm is not in the way Thank you for your insights. Much appreciated. Roger |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 9:07am
| Ed would be your best advisor on what / how to remove pump. Basically timing marks in window lined up while on #1 compression and don't rotate engine after pump removed. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 9:11am
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If it’s possible to lift the loader high and chain it so it doesn’t drift down that will make it easier to get to the pump. Just make sure it is very secure. I don’t have a manual on that tractor but the engine will need to be timed before removal of the pump. Not sure if it’s 18 degrees BTDC? You will line up the timing marks in the window. Ed or someone else will chime in to guide you. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: Gleaner6879
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 9:20am
| As advertised, Ed has it covered in his PM to me! Thank you again all. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 9:21am
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I replied to his pm. To lock a loader in the up position, a couple of angle irons on the lift cylinder rams works great, hose clamp holds them on lightly while you lower it down to those stops. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 9:26am
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Once the timing marks are aligned, DO NOT ALLOW THE ENGINE TO ROTATE!!!! Disconnect the battery.
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Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 9:29am
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Take photos of the fuel lines, before you remove anything. Have some plastic caps to keep FOD out of fuel system. It is a good idea to power wash the fuel system before disassembly. Dirt is your enemy. Keep it clean.
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Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 12:05pm
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Here are a couple topics from the past on how to remove the pump. I did mine like this a few years ago and it worked well. I both lines up the timing marks and scribed a line with a chisel just to be double safe.
https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/185-injection-pump-removal_topic56731.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/185-injection-pump-removal_topic56731.html https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/185-pump-removal-docs-way_topic195995.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/185-pump-removal-docs-way_topic195995.html |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2023 at 12:06pm
| Another note, in each once of the fittings, there is a little rubber gasket. Chances are they are all bad and will leak. Cheap and easy to replace them all now while the lines are apart. Ed might have them, not sure. I got mine form the locat CaseIH dealer |