The One-Ninety at Nebraska Testing
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=192302
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Topic: The One-Ninety at Nebraska Testing
Posted By: DrAllis
Subject: The One-Ninety at Nebraska Testing
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 8:06am
| I enjoy looking back and reading Nebraska Testing info when I am bored, or looking for particular specifications. Because I know a little bit about A-C tractors, the test information sometimes turns up interesting things. The mighty One-Ninety was first shown to the world of agriculture in July or August of 1964. The oldest advertising literature I have is dated August. The One-Ninety was the replacement (of sorts) for the D-19, with all new radical styling and a brand new engine line, called the 2000 series, built in the Harvey, Illinois engine facility. The 2000 series engine was quite modern and wasn't lacking at all in features when compared to the competition. The diesel engine serial number was 2D-1042. Interestingly, the chassis serial number was 190-1041-D !!! People sometimes ask why diesel power overtook gasoline power in farming. This tractor clearly shows why: diesel power at the PTO was 77.20 while burning 5.4 GPH fuel. The new gasoline engine produced 75.37 HP and burned 6.94 GPH !!! A gallon and a half difference in fuel economy per hour was looking like a big deal to me and that was at 100% load. Lighter loads I'm sure the diesel looked even better. The gas chassis s/n was 190-6955 and its engine was 2G-3003. The diesel model was tested in April of 1965 and the gasser not until November of the same year. The test results also show that the original transmissions were 1-2...3-5...4-6...7-8... in their speed/range selections. That later got changed after s/n 9001 when the drivelines were improved because of the XT's greater torque/HP. |
Replies:
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 8:18am
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Very interesting! And never boring! Our 185’s pulling the dual NH 258 rakes I don’t believe they burn a gallon and a half per hour in 6th gear 1500 ish rpm’s with a great comfortable ride. And they’re 50 years old! ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 8:50am
When diesel was less expensive than gasoline back in those days the cost gap widened significantly more! I expect modern diesel guys are upside down in that equation these days even without including the DEF requirements. Apparently US crude oil makes for cleaner fuels while more of the diesel crude is imported from naturally occurring 'dirtier' global sources -- and hence the fragility of commodity pricing impacting diesel these days. Our farm was exclusively gasoline equipment from the first tractors brought to the farm in the 1930s on up to the newest addition in the late 1960s. We had a gasoline tank with a service station pump on it (probably installed in the 1940s from what I remember of the pump styling). My father was always more comfortable working on the gasoline engines so that was another big part of the reason. There is probably a maintenance and repair balance that could be figured out -- like the big semi truck haulers primarily use diesel for their half to full million mile runs. Although I have currently or have taken gasoline engines regularly above a quarter million miles (rust usually kills them). And then there are the propane tractors I see at auctions. And the E85 sources that have a lower cost per gallon but you need to burn a lot more gallons to go the same distance. And wood for the old steam engine tractors, lol. Fuel is a pretty complex gamble for a farmer. .
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DrAllis wrote:Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 10:50am
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How did that rating compare to the D19 Turbo Diesel? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 11:10am
| D-19 turbo-diesel didn't fair very well against the non-turbo One-Ninety. D-19 T.D. had 66.92 PTO HP and used 5.2 GPH. The One-Ninety had 77.20 HP and only used 5.4 GPH. Ten more HP and only another quart of fuel per hour !! |
Posted By: Gatz in NE
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 11:18am
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https://www.dieselworldmag.com/diesel-tractors/the-first-turbo-tractor-allis-chalmers-d-19/" rel="nofollow - https://www.dieselworldmag.com/diesel-tractors/the-first-turbo-tractor-allis-chalmers-d-19/ Seems to be a typo towards the end of article….should be GPH, not GPA
Nebraska Test #811
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 11:36am
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I also enjoy reading the tractor data on the models we have on our farm. I mentioned in my post of wanting to add the second set of remotes on my 160 was so I could use our Enrossi 4 basket Tedder . One set is needed for the folding and unfolding of the wings and the other is needed for tilt fore and aft. I mentioned fuel efficiency as a reason for using the 160 instead of the bigger horsepower tractors. Although our 6060 and my XT are efficient, the 160 is far more efficient. I know the Nebraska data is based on working load, Tedding certainly doesn’t put that much load on a engine so its fuel efficiency would actually improve on each tractor. Each engine still needs to run at pto speed. But for comparison, let’s look at the results based on Nebraska testing and $5.25/ gal fuel cost. The 160 uses 2.7 GPH or $14.18/hr. The 6060 uses 4 GPH or $21/hr. The XT uses 5.7 GPH or $29.93/hr. Let’s say it takes me 3 hours to TED including travel time. That’s $42.54 for the 160, $63 for the 6060, and $89.79 for the XT. For me that’s a big savings in a year of hay production especially when comparing it to my mighty XT. If you throw in the fun factor of running a XT then this all goes out the window lol. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 11:45am
| The fun factor and 301 diesel in any AC tractor is so cool ; thats the perfect AC engine ; they will take a ton of abuse and yet hang in there |
Posted By: soggybottomboy
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 12:25pm
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I was the youngest of 4 brothers. The one who is next in line is almost 8 years older than me. When he went into the service at 18, I was expected to fill in with that workload. I was 12 years old. Dad had a D19 which was our big tractor. I stayed home from school a lot to help. My oldest brother bought a One Ninety, I think it was about 1966. That thing was a cadillac compared to the D19. The operator sat up high on a platform. All the controls were on a console. It had a big fuel tank, 48 verses 23 gallons on the D19. When you met the neighbors driving another color tractor on the road, you could look them right in the eye instead of looking up at them. It is just to bad the 190 tractors had so many driveline problems. They just couldn't hold the power of that 301. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 1:17pm
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The thing about the Nebraska Tests that makes them a little suspect as far as I'm concerned is the companies were able to supply directly the tractor to be tested so things could be done that wouldn't be reflected in an off the assembly line tractor.Better to have gotten tractors to test off a dealers lot. |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 1:30pm
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All of the published specs are checked by the lab before testing, if a spec is found to be out of tolerance, the manufacturer is given the opportunity to correct the problem, or the test vehicle is rejected. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 2:33pm
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My "unofficial" fuel consumption experience is kind of like this. A lot of times when baling hay, we'd head to the field with the V rake behind my one ninety gas, and the baler behind the XT diesel. At the end of the field, the gas usually consumed about twice as much gas as the XT did diesel. Big difference though; the gas pulling the rake didn't hardly know it had anything behind it, and the XT was getting a pretty good workout. Darrel |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 2:48pm
| I think the Nebraska Test people were pretty good about making sure no one had an ace up their sleeve. I have seen pictures of the WD tractor that was tested and they took the engine apart after the testing was done to verify cubic inches, carb sizes, etc...looking for anything that didn't meet the specs that was printed in the companies service manual. As far as the driveline holding up, I don't remember ever working on an old original One-Ninety driveline. It was the genius in very late 1964 who decided the diesel engine needed a turbo-charger on it, is when the problems began. The One-Ninety was first and the XT came out later when the dealer organization complained 77 HP wasn't enough !! They needed a 95 HP unit. So, now there was the "XT". Whomever decided that was a good idea, without testing, cost AC millions of dollars in repairs and updates, while the market was being flooded with other 95 HP tractors that didn't have any serious problems. True, while the XT could out perform all the others in the field, it didn't out perform squat when it was in the shop for repairs. |
Posted By: Ky.Allis
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 4:40pm
| Why was the 200 never tested at Nebraska? Did they decide it was almost identical engine as the XT Ser. 3? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 4:47pm
| I assume so. Same reason the series 4 D-17 wasn't tested either. |
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 5:07pm
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AC720man, consider a Fasse valve on your 160. I have one the 8050 to get 3 remotes for the Kinze planter. It plugs into your single remotes to give you 2 double remotes with the flip of a switch. They are about $500 but easy to use. I added a 3rd remote to our other 8050 via, adding the valve, lines, linkage and breakaways and spent more than the cost of a Fasse valve. Dr Allis, good read. I'll never forget the first time I saw the brand new 1972 190 XT diesel my Dad and Uncle bought. I was 6. It was the main tillage tractor for 800 acres for many years. Then it got 500 loader and put in front of the grinder/mixer. Lots of very tuff hours. We still have it and use it regularly. Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 5:23pm
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Leon I probably would have went that route after exhausting my efforts to stay factory. I was gonna give it a few more months, but luckily my brother came across a complete set in Alabama from a parts tractor. I’m in the process of cleaning the lines, and will begin the install this week. The parts are in really good condition. A great Christmas present to myself. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 8:40pm
| And the longevity of the diesel is also a factor especially when worked hard. Gas engines seem to last okay when not worked so hard but not so good in the real heavy duty applications. |
Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 9:18pm
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Posted By: Ed (Ont)
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 9:23pm
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That is from an old farm magazine that we used to get up here in Canada called “Country Guide”. Date on the back of it is October 1964. 😀
I always loved the looks of those tractors. But the "D" series were very nice as well.
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 10:42pm
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I will always be partial to my XT, it was a horse in its day and it’s still my favorite. Just as the WD put AC on the map, I feel the XT did the same in its heyday. It’s fuel efficiency/power ratio amazes me every time I use it. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2022 at 11:48pm
| Nice thing about the Fasse valve is it can be moved from tractor to tractor with ease. I can only drive one at a time so it would be a good fit here. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 11:01am
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DrAllis, always an interesting read - thanks for sharing. Yes, the increase in diesel hp versus fuel efficiencies per gasoline is quite impressive. It seems that the 190 & D19 have some parallels? Both models offered narrow front, wide front, hi-crop, & beachmaster versions. Both models offered newer straight-through rear axle designs to accommodate 34" or 38" tires.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 11:23am
| The D-19 always had a "Buda" inspired engine. The first 50 or so One-Eighty gassers tried to use the G-226 compression code "V" and failed for engine vibration problems at 2,200 top RPM's. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 11:42am
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Ive stated this before, but in the AC crawler and tractor data book, Nebraska also tested the unstyled wc pulling more weight than a UC. never could figure that out. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 12:18pm
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A 190 Gas never had the G2800, that would make it a 190XT Gas. D19D was always turbo'd, 190D never was. D19 gas always had the G262 6 cylinder. The 190 Gas was dropped eventually and just the 190XT Gas was offered. Guessing the 180 Gas with the G2500 filled that niche. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 4:15pm
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 4:16pm
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Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 8:25pm
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I went on the Nebraska website to see how they test and found very little info. I’ve seen video on how AC tested their tractors but I’m curious about the official Nebraska testing. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2022 at 10:19pm
| Exactly how each tractor was tested depends if it was in the 1930's or what decade since. I could find out, but they used to do their drawbar tests on DIRT, because of steel wheels. At some point in time, they went to a total concrete circular track, so the results were more consistent. That's why you see so many pictures of rear wheel weights stacked so wide, is because they were pulling on concrete AND the drawbar pull was in a straight line, not a downward pull on the drawbar. They changed many things about the testing over the years. Every tractor I look at there are three full sheets of information as to what each test consisted of. Actual belt or PTO numbers were done inside a building (I think) to keep air temps in the 75 degree F temp range. The outdoor testing wouldn't have been that way. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 5:50am
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C.H. Wendels book Nebraska Tractor Tests since 1920 is one of the best books I own. I always enjoy flopping it open and reading about different tractors Antique Power Magazine did an interview in one issue with the retired manager of the test facility. He told the story of a tractor that was sent to be tested and later aborted because the tractor "didnt meet specs". Nothing is left of this test except the managers personal notes and pictures. Very interesting article. Ill have to see if I can find it-I know I saved that issue ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 5:53am
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I'd like to see how they mounted all those weights together. For the D14 they needed 9 per side to do the max weight test. That is a lot of cantilever weight on a pressed wheel. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 7:11am
Guessing that would be Lester Larson. He has published several great books about the neb testing. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 7:55am
| Dr. Allis and others,refresh my memory. Didn't the Allis price sheets list quite a few of the new tractors as not being for sale in Nebraska? Was that because they hadn't been tested yet? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 8:35am
| Seems like maybe during the 8000 series reign?? Think about it. According to the state of Nebraska, you'd have to test four 8010 tractors ( 8010 PD/2WD--8010 PS/2WD--8010 PD/FWA--8010 PS/FWA) so a total of 16 tests just for the 8000 series models. AND, the manufacturer has to PAY Nebraska Test a pretty good sum to do each test. There might have been another situation, but that is one that comes to my mind. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 10:03am
Yes sir. I will see if I can find that issue when I get home. I got rid of most of my old Antique Powers (no longer a subscriber) but I did keep a few that had super good articles, and that was one of them. I do not remember the company that submitted the tractor for testing, but I remember the engineer was there when they did the testing and according to the article he was a handful LOL ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 12:14pm
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Oliver was one company that guarantied the HP rating of their tractors. If they said it was 45 HP then it put out 45 HP or better. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 12:41pm
| "Certified Horsepower". |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 7:43pm
It would be interesting to know how much gasoline a smaller tractor (just barely big enough) would burn pulling that V rake under identical conditions. I have no clue as to which AC tractor that might be. I do know that gasoline engines tend to be most efficient at WOT due to reduced pumping losses, but there is far more to it than just that. |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 8:27pm
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I don't think the 8000 series with the power director were tested at the Nebraska Lab. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 8:56pm
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I remember listening to a couple of conversations between Joe Hoefel and E w Muelhausen (sorry if I misspelled the names) who were the engineer of the AC power shift and the marketing mgr of the 7000 series. AC checked their tractors against Deere and others. The Ne test of the Deere units never matched what Allis tested - they were better in the tests . Detective work found Deere built some units for testing. AC just pulled one off the line - made sure it was up to snuff and put it on the truck. Deere did things like loosen up the wheel bearings, lower the oil pressure, lower the voltage on generators, shave the brakes to make sure there was no dragging, make sure the transmission rolling loads were at the minimun, hydraulic pressures were at the bare mimimun per spec, fuel pumps /systems were exact and on and on. This resulted in a small % increase in performance at the test. They joked they would not want a Deere tractor that was sent to Ne, to farm with - it was half worn out.. Later AC did not build units for test, but did select units realizing not all were created equal off the assy line. In the battle for bragging rights the best on paper and in advertising literature, little things mattered. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2022 at 9:22pm
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I have told this before, but Doc mentioned about the 190 vs 190XT. Recently passed Ray Dogget was the marketing manager when the 190 was introduced. Immediately competition was eating the lunch of AC salesmen in this class as AC 190 had a smaller engine than did Deere or IH or Case and others. It was a time of horsepower wars. Dealers were screaming at West Allis for more HP. At meetings the guys from Harvey simply folded the arms and ask how much HP they wanted as the 2900 could go to 100 hp easily. The chassis engineers knew the limits to the tranny as to hp and weight. They were working on the changes in stages but were 3 years out and 4 with the series III 4 pinon as it required many retooling changes. Ray was under the gun - put in more HP and risk the unknown with tranny failures and meet the demand form the sales force or wait for the platform and keep the warranty cost under control. You know the choice he made. We were in a training class in Mke and Ray in later life was in charge of new trainee schooling. During a bull session one loud mouth rookie blurted, I wish I could meet the idiot who made the 190XT - to which Ray raised his hand for silence and looked at him and said "That would be me" - the youngster then got the full story and later apologized to the class. Did he make the right decision - it will be argued forever.. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 12:09am
| The rock and a hard place..... |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 9:47pm
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As a XT owner, I’m glad he took the risk. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 3:47pm
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So its the Jan/Feb 2007 issue with a CASE 500 Diesel on the cover. It was indeed written by Lester Larson and the test in question was test #385. Long story short engineer Harry McDevitt submitted a tractor for American Steel Tractor Company. A one list of problems were to follow, to include excessive wheel slippage and a transmission housing that got so hot they had to throw water from 5 gallons buckets on to it every time the tractor made a lap. The tractor was withdrawn and the test stopped. Barium steel of Canton OH eventually sued Mcdevitt and personnel from the test lab were called to court. After the trail, all test data, records and photographs pertaining to that tractor were destroyed and the Ford 8N was given test#385 ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Gatz in NE
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 7:04pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhzisV1btEk" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhzisV1btEk
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