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New Farms - cost to everyone

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
Forum Description: anything you want to talk about except politics
Printed Date: 26 Jun 2022 at 3:44am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 -

Topic: New Farms - cost to everyone
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Subject: New Farms - cost to everyone
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 10:21am
I wonder if you applied this same test to Nuclear Power how it compares and competes. There has to be one smart person in this group to explain this.
Wonder what states like California will do when thousands of government mandated electric cars must charge every day and the state does not currently have enough power to avoid summer brownouts ???
Food for Thought!
Right now the average wind farm is about 150 turbines.
Each wind turbine needs 80 gallons of oil as lubricant and we're not talking about vegetable oil, this is a PAO synthetic oil based on crude.. 12,000 gallons of it. That oil needs to be replaced once a year.
It is estimated that a little over 3,800 turbines would be needed to power a city the size of New York... That's 304,000 gallons of refined oil for just one city. Now you have to calculate every city across the nation, large and small, to find the grand total of yearly oil consumption from "clean" energy. Where do you think all that oil is going to come from, the oil fairies?
Not to mention the fact that the large equipment needed to build these wind farms run on petroleum. As well as the equipment required for installation, service, maintenance, and eventual removal.
And just exactly how eco-friendly is wind energy anyway? Each turbine requires a footprint of 1.5 acres, so a wind farm of 150 turbines needs 225 acres; In order to power a city the size of NYC you'd need 57,000 acres; and who knows the astronomical amount of land you would need to power the entire US. All of which would have to be clear-cut land because trees create a barrier & turbulence that interferes with the 20mph sustained wind velocity necessary for the turbine to work properly (also keep in mind that not all states are suitable for such sustained winds). Boy, cutting down all those trees is gonna anger a lot of green-loving tree-huggers.
Let's talk about disposal now. The lifespan of a modern, top quality, highly efficient wind turbine is 20 years.
After that, then what? What happens to those gigantic fiber composite blades? They cannot economically be reused, refurbished, reduced, repurposed, or recycled so guess what..? It's off to special landfills they go.
And guess what else..? They're already running out of these special landfill spaces for the blades that have already exceeded their usefulness. Seriously! Those blades are anywhere from 120 ft. to over 200 ft. long and there are 3 per turbine. And that's with only 7% of the nation currently being supplied with wind energy. Just imagine if we had the other 93% of the nation on the wind grid... 20 years from now you'd have all those unusable blades with no place to put them... Then 20 years after that, and 20 years after that, and so on.
How green is that?
I almost forgot about the 500,000 birds that are killed each year from wind turbine blade collisions; most of which are endangered hawks, falcons, owls, geese, ducks, and eagles. Apparently smaller birds are more agile and able to dart and dodge out of the way of the spinning blades, whereas the larger soaring birds aren't so lucky.
I'm sure the wildlife conservationist folks are just ecstatic about that.
I'm so glad the wind energy people are looking out for the world. Thank you John Kerry. And this doesn’t take into account the need for each turbine to operate at 75% efficiency for a minimum of 60 years just to off-set the co2 emissions created in its manufacture; but hang on, each turbine only has a life expectancy of 20 years . . .

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 11:42am
Sounds like a plan!

Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 12:45pm
It's a racket for sure and even an uneducated novice like me a look and see....that doesn't make sense. They've been building a bunch around here for several years. I look at the massive cranes erecting them and wonder what is the price tag for putting up just one considering all cost involved. How long does it take to just break even? Something smells!

Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 12:49pm
 Yep just take land out of production to product electric and sell slaughter house to China and buy everything from over seas. Sounds like the Democratic way of life.

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 2:57pm
Worked Power Generation to know this is a fact.  Towers with turbines on them shutting down to oil levels too low as leak like a fresh cut hog and drizzle shat like a hog with scour.

Wind is a great SUPPLEMENTAL power but is all its good for, just like solar.  NEVER Intended for Base Loads or Constant Duty cycles.

Posted By: dee_veloper
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

Worked Power Generation to know this is a fact.  Towers with turbines on them shutting down to oil levels too low as leak like a fresh cut hog and drizzle shat like a hog with scour.

Wind is a great SUPPLEMENTAL power but is all its good for, just like solar.  NEVER Intended for Base Loads or Constant Duty cycles.

You an expert ?  By your own posting, you're still using an outhouse. 

Don't confuse my personality with my attitude.
My personality is who I am. My attitude depends on who you are.

Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 3:34pm
Anything that creates moving electrons has a cost , now or in the future , yet I see few who think beyond the here and now . When i throw that switch I expect a light to come on or a motor to run . 
 So a wind turbine has to have wind , and a solar cell need sunlight , but even a coal fired or natural gas fired steam boiler requires a power source , but coal, natural gas, or diesel can be stored until needed . Gas turbines and be backed up by burning diesel fuel, as can coal fired boilers use natural gas , #6 crude oil or even wood chips or sawdust .
 Yet there is no backup for wind and when night falls solar farms produce nothing .
It seems water power also has it's drawbacks when drought conditions befall areas . 
Might be we need to find a different lifestyle but living in caves and everyone living around the equator or temperate areas is sure to cause more problems in getting along 

Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by dee_veloper dee_veloper wrote:

Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

Worked Power Generation to know this is a fact.  Towers with turbines on them shutting down to oil levels too low as leak like a fresh cut hog and drizzle shat like a hog with scour.

Wind is a great SUPPLEMENTAL power but is all its good for, just like solar.  NEVER Intended for Base Loads or Constant Duty cycles.

You an expert ?  By your own posting, you're still using an outhouse. 

Had no well at the Barn, have electric, known also to use trees, ditches even a Clay pile.  Was in the Power Industry for over 20 years as a Station Operator at a Nuke.  Had not ever been in a Power station prior except to deliver stuff or be a mechanic on Company Machines there.  Eye opening experience as to what worked, what did not, expenses as to production or maintenance and construction.

Nuke was still less per kW/hr than Coal, Coal by far cheaper than CNG, Wind, Solar at the time across the nation was on again off again where learned the why fors' and how comes'.  Water was fine but Limited, OLD hydro stations delivered far less for eight running generators than ONE Dirt burner output, the Nuke had ONE Generator and produced as much as Two dirt burning station generators.  For EVERY hour of Operation on a CTG(Combustion Turbine) took an hour of recurrent maintenance, those big 80mW CTGs used close to 200 Gallons of Lubricant a 12 hour run.  KS and NB wind farms were prevalent trying to sell excess, ONLY happened at night after 9-10pm, due to Heated Ground Effect Turbulence that shut them off AUTOMATICALLY on Hot Summer days, become unstable as to output and cannot adapt fast enough to the changes, Safety Self Secure.

Nuke ran 96% Capacity Factor average, look that term up, that is the Capacity to manage and deliver power at a specified load as a continual operation for the layman.  Dirt burners averaged 70-85%, CTGs around 40% and 'Renewables' LESS Than 30%.

I learned far more than some being a sponge to figure it out.

End Cost per kW/hr was around $.06 Nuke, closer to $.08 for Dirt burner, OVER $3.00 per kW for a CTG(were subsequently set off for Peaking Power) where the Company would Sell those W/hrs from them to the Grid Buyers.  Never saw consistent numbers from Wind or Solar.  Osage(Bagnall Dam), Keokuk, even Taum Sauk generated power well below $.02/kW/hr just not sustainable Long Term as would run Out of Water level for efficiency.  Bagnall will soon be 100, Keokuk already had that Birthday, TS is over 60.

Labadie final Unit completed mid 70s, Sioux was completed Mid 60s, Rush Island early 80s, Callawy Nuke online 82.  Do the math, Callaway will be running as the others are disassembled, received a 20 year Life Extension several years ago.

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 4:26pm

Callaway, getting New Turbine Sections, 1 million 200,000 Shaft HP from 1000psi Steam.
In Full Power mode, 1270mW delivered to the Grid at 345,000V EVERY Hour, that has been effectively increased to closer to 1300mW/hr

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 4:41pm
I really did enjoy working at the Nuke, got old physically where 20+ years of mechanic had already beaten half my stuffings out, I retired.

The millwrights set the turbine to .004" tolerance Full Length, used a Lazer and believe or not a transit.

Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2021 at 12:46am
around here and most other places the land is not taken out of production except where the tower is and so many feet around it. the ground can still be farmed but the land owner gets a good rental fee for each tower and then gets to lazy to go plant a crop. most grow wheat around them, other crops still grow fine around them. they will prolly be a high priced KW/hr maker as they are a newer form/style of making electric usually taking out what was used before.  i've been around them and have never seen any (not one) dead bird around them. not saying they can/will kill some. there is a nuke plant within 7-8 miles from me, they have now taken it down, will take many years before they can get it all cleared out. even with it not generating anymore they still had to build a new building to house a bunch of new equipment that will be used if needed to move things about the plant, they pay someone to go it the building every day and start all the equipment in case any of it is needed to move something. have friends that work in coal fired plant, they come home every night covered in coal dust. they look worse than the old time miners did coming out of a mine. there is coal dust and smoke in the air all around the plant all the time. it's an older plant, and they have quenched most of the smoke down but not all of it. yeah...what i'm getting at, what ever type power generation we have or start using, there are good and bad things that can/will happen with each one. i'm already seeing alot of the used blades coming thru our town, they cut them in half and was told they are being used for other things and not going to any landfill...yet. but that's just in my part of the country, not saying they aren't going to a land fill anywhere else. saw what a tornado did to several wind turbines...that wasn't pretty. right now if i was given a choice, i'd vote for the wind turbines right now. until we all learn more (including the manufacturers), there is still alot to be learned on all the types of generation.   

Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2021 at 2:20pm
  Shameless what do they do with the old oil they use for lubrication in the wind powered generators when they change it?

Posted By: dr p
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2021 at 7:48pm
This is one f the most intelligent and interesting topics we have ever posted. I learned a lot

Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2021 at 9:39pm
With the surface feet per minute on a 400 foot diameter you ain't gonna find any dead birds cause de gonna be vaporized. Ask anybody who has spent time on a lathe turning large diameters. I have and I can't even imagine the sfpm of a 400 foot diameter.                         Gubmit payola ain't cheap. Takes big scams to get that kind of money. Stuff like Climate Change, whirley gigs, bumper cars and solar.

Posted By: Walker
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2021 at 10:42pm
Another way to explain is a marching parade making a sharp turn. The guy on inside of rank is marching in place, the guy on outside of rank is running to keep up.

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2021 at 6:15am
Renewablade is a start up company in IA, been running blade chunks thru a tree or wood process shredder.  Got shut down for Air Quality Control as unknown how much Silica Dust is Producing/Releasing to environment.  Silica Lung Poisoning is as bad or worse than Asbestosis.  

End product to be encapsulated in Concrete, so that makes it all better, UNTIL go to demolish that concrete where is same as busting up Tile Mortar or Siding made of Asbestos.  How much Concrete will that require to encapsulate all the ground up blades?  So what gets done with that, MORE Burial???  More crap to get buried and under dirt out of sight out of mind?  They are out of Their Minds.

Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2021 at 9:36am
   Just keep it there for Shameless to enjoy, we don't need any of it around this park of the country to contaminiated the soil and water

Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2021 at 9:55am
I agree, are works projects in UK doing similar, are just running into no actual need for the volumes of grindings as do not use that much concrete.  Here a Yard of Fibermesh Concrete uses only ONE 100# bag of Fiberglass strands.  Looks like needs a shave when dried and Magged.

Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2021 at 11:31am
Wink We have those who have discovered every fault and evil of current technology and so focused on the evil of the past. And are completely opposed to seeing any fault with the new tech someone is promoting for the the future.  The only way to not make bigger problems than we have now is analyze as per Coke's post that started this topic.

Wink  We need the big electric powered shovel that was built for coal mining that I believe has been scraped. Confused Then we can use clean power from windmills to bury the toxic waste of windmill blades. LOL

Posted By: shameless dude
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2021 at 12:36am
mr.adams...i don't know about the oil, but i will reseach it, maybe it goes to penzoil and used again? 

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