Need Help - W Speed Patrol (WC) Won't Run
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18465
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Topic: Need Help - W Speed Patrol (WC) Won't Run
Posted By: 70Standard
Subject: Need Help - W Speed Patrol (WC) Won't Run
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 5:48pm
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I have a model W Speed Patrol, which is the same as a styled WC tractor, that won't run that I'm trying to get ready to sell at an auction this coming Saturday. It has fire (just had the mag rebuilt and it's hot), new plugs and a rebuilt carburetor. Compression tests out at nearly 120 psi on three cylinders and around 105 for the other. It will give about half-hearted pop when you first start cranking, then just turns over with an occasional little wisp of fumes out the exhaust. The carb was bench tested to verify the needle valve is opening and closing and the float is good. I put my hand over the air intake on the carb while cranking, and it had some vacuum, but not a whole lot. I removed the carb and ran a piece of stiff wire up into the intake manifold passages a ways. I disloged some dirt, rust and one walnut shell, but not a lot of stuff. This tractor sat for several years in Missouri where the mud dabbers (like a wasp) build everywhere. A mechanic friend guesses that the intake manifold is partially plugged up. Unfortunately, the manifold bolts are rusty and would twist off. Any ideas what the problem is, and is there something simple I can do to try and fix? ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Replies:
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 6:04pm
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DuPont Lures - 4 firecrackers, one for each cylinder. Good Lord man, anything that could drag a walnut shell up past the choke AND throttle butterfly probably has a complete living room outfit up in there someplece. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 6:14pm
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First off WERE IS THE AUCTION? Did you make sure that number one was on the compression stroke and that the mag was set to fire on number 1 when you remounted the mag. I would be concerned about other junk in the manifold too. I found acorns and such packed around the sleeves when I tore Lena apart.
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:00pm
------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
CJohnS MI wrote:Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:02pm
------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:06pm
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Here's a picture of the old gal.  ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: RichinWis
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:06pm
| make sure that when you put the mag back on that you did not have it 180 degrees out of time, this is a very common mistake made when reinstalling a Mag or Dist. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:09pm
------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:10pm
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Well, beyond the Dupont Lures, a shop vac pulling on the intake manifold while somebody is blasting air from the shop compressor down each cylinder would be my second option. I know you know this: But you are setting the mag with the piston at top center on the compression stroke, right? |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:14pm
------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:37pm
Well, on account of the fact I am one, I'm willing to respect the talents of an old timer. If its been sitting with the carb off that long, there's a real good chance you've got some valves stuck. A whiff of ether while cranking ought to get at least a hopeful sound out of it if everything else is OK. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 7:57pm
------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: Dnoym N. S. Can.
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 8:03pm
70Standard  this is what i would do (1) take all the spark plugs out to make the engine easy to turn over . You need to rotate the engine slowly until the number one piston begins the upward motion on the compression stroke. To do this I usually just put my thumb over the number one spark plug hole while rotating the engine . Once I begin feeling air pressure building up under my thumb, I know that I am on the compression and not the exhaust stroke bring it all the way to the top.now take off the distribute cap and see where the rotor button is pointing that your # 1 wire now turn it a little more to see witch way the rotor is turning cw or ccw (2)just put your thumb over the number one spark plug hole while rotating the engine with the plug on the number one wire with a ground on the plug check to see if it fire at the same time as compression (3) do this too the three other cylinder (4) then come back here and tell us what you found if you need more help let us know B:-) Dnoym |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 8:15pm
What Dnoym says: You need to confirm that your mag will spark & is timed. But seriously, if you were able to get a walnut shell out - who knows how much else is up there? For what its worth, theres a pretty good chance that when you do get it running, anything a chipmunk could drag into that intake - once the engine managed to suck it through - it'd burn off without harm. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 8:58pm
Thanks guys - I'll follow what Dnoym explained tomorrow and post what I find. Fingers are crossed. ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: dustinmo
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 9:52pm
| I see it sells with a reserve could you tell us wwhat the reserve will be |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 4:08pm
I followed the procedure above and verified that the mag is firing each plug just after compression stops on all four cylinders. Still won't run. Tried ether, but only just a few light pops and nothing close to running. ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 4:26pm
Oh, but you are so much closer than a lot of other fellas. You got a "few light pops" which is practically home free. mag is firing each plug just after compression stops Yes, well, you want that to happen a little sooner. Mag should fire AT top dead center, not AFTER. So, if the mag were loosened just enough to turn on the slots - could you still go further counter-clockwise with it? Counter-clockwise meaning standing at the back of the engine, facing the magneto cap. The worst that could happen, is if you advanced the mag too far, the engine might buck the starter a little. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 4:33pm
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I rotated the mag CCW, and it sounded a lot better when cranking, but after about three or four seconds it quits the little hiccups and just turns over. Did same with ether. ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 4:42pm
| I would also pull the valve cover off and rotate the engine, just to make sure that all of the valves are openning and closing as they should. I had a pushrod off #1 cylinder on mine. Tractor was running, just skipping. Make sure all valves are snapping closed and not being lazy doing so. A little of your favorite penetrant would cure that. I am also with the gang in that you may want the timing back a little. There should be a mark on the flywheel with a window to view it somewhere. There will be a timing(T or C) mark and a fire(F) mark.(Not an expert on WC, B,C, is more my thing). I think you would set #1 on compression and line up fire mark, then time mag rotor to #1 plug wire tower. Hope this helps and does not confuse. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 7:13pm
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Sorry, just got news of an expected death in the family. Ah, Dream is right of course. These old AC engines all fire at TDC. You can find a timing mark and make sure that your old time got it right, but I think he is close. Pulling all the plugs and cranking with whichever finger will pulg the hole - there should be enough compression to blow your finger back - even if you press hard. That said, it isn't often all four cylinders have stuck valves. And even two cylinders working would be enough to get it to run - very poorly. |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 7:55pm
| it still sounds like the mag is off by 180. Pull #1 plug ang get the piston to TDC. Pull the cover off of the mag, just the dist cover, and see where the rotor pionts. It should poit to #1 spark plug wire position. The timing could also be off inside of the mag. If the rotor point to position #2, then rotate the wires one hole. Bob |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 8:07pm
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Thanks Bob. I'll follow your procedure and see what I find.
Related question - I don't have the hand crank, and using the starter to spin it over to exact TDC on #1 is tough. Turning the crank by hand can only be done in very small increments. Is there a simpler/easier way that I'm missing? ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 8:11pm
There is quite a bit of compression when I turn it over - enough that I can't hold it with my finger. Also, the mechanic I had work on it took off the tappet cover (cast, not pressed steel like on the ag tractors) and made sure the valves were free and nothing was amiss from that side of the head. All cylinders tested out at more than 100 psi compression. ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 9:30pm
| Without the crank you should be able to accurately find TDC by removing the plugs and turn the engine over using the fan, as long as your fan belt is tight enough. Otherwise, clamp a good pair of vise grips to the crank extension shaft to roll the engine over to TDC. |
Posted By: Bob D. (La)
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2010 at 4:41am
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Might be a plugged air cleaner. Try pulling air cleaner hose off and see if it will start. HTH God Bless. ------------- When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!! |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2010 at 6:51am
I wanted to thank everyone for their thoughts, suggestions and offers of help to get the old gal running. In the end, I ran out of time getting everything set up for the auction and never did get it running. I put a tag on it detailing what work had been done and why it wasn't running. In the end, it brought the reserve I had and now has a new home. Makes me wonder what it would have sold for had it been running! Thanks again to all that offered assistance. Good group of folks on this forum. ------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |
Posted By: 70Standard
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2010 at 6:52am
Another pic taken the day before the auction. That's a WD on the far end.------------- Roof Palomino (SN 224), Chetech Pug UTV, Three Green Tractors and one Red Tractor. |