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WD45 Diesel hard to start

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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=182838
Printed Date: 30 Nov 2024 at 4:38am
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Topic: WD45 Diesel hard to start
Posted By: WD in Australia
Subject: WD45 Diesel hard to start
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2021 at 5:11pm
Gday AC mates,
Need some advice on WD45 Diesels as they are new to me and rare in Australia. Tractor had been sitting for 12 months so the diesel was foul (really smelt bad) so I drained the tank and all filters. With fresh diesel it took about 4 nights this week of cranking until the starter was hot to bleed all the old diesel out and get fresh diesel to the injectors. We finally got it running last night after putting a lot of heat into manifold with propane blow torch and the electric heater ( we didn't use ether to get it going). Popped from a couple of cylinders then took off. Ran really well considering it has sat for 12 months and that we had all the lines off at the injectors to get clean fuel through. Ran it for around 30mins to get it nice and warm and a few laps of the yard. There was a few little leaks on pipes into injectors so we tightened them up. Looks like a slight leak under the pump that pumps up to last 2 filters.
Pulled it back into the shed and shut it off on the lever. Decided to restart it and it wouldn't run. It didn't even pop on any cylinders.
When it was running the pulse on few of the injector pipes seemed stronger than others and a few of the injectors felt really hot like #5. #1 & #6 injectors felt cooler. 
Does anyone have thoughts on next thing to look at?
Pic below is the tractor in question




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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler



Replies:
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2021 at 9:08pm
I would say injectors need checked  along with air cells. Might check compressionwhile injectors are out.           MACK


Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2021 at 9:50pm
how did you open and close those injector lines with out scratching that new paint 


Posted By: Richardmo
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2021 at 11:11pm
Is that the tractor that came from a Polk sale awhile back?


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 7:23am
Originally posted by MACK MACK wrote:

I would say injectors need checked  along with air cells. Might check compressionwhile injectors are out.           MACK

Thanks Mack, was thinking that. Any tricks with overhauling these that are different to whats listed in the shop manual?
Cheers, Richard 


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 7:25am
Originally posted by HudCo HudCo wrote:

how did you open and close those injector lines with out scratching that new paint 

We did scratch up the paint. This picture was from before. Once finished I will need to do a bit of touch up.


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 7:29am
Originally posted by Richardmo Richardmo wrote:

Is that the tractor that came from a Polk sale awhile back?
Yes it is, from the Polk sale last September. Do you know some history on it?
Cheers,
Richard


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 9:00am
Did you get any smoke when cranking it hot?

And did you try pull starting it also?

When the pump head gets worn, the first symptom is hard starting when hot. The fuel thins out and leaks between barrel and plunger instead of out the lines.

Also, if the supply pump is weak, that could affect it also. You need 5 PSI at the pump inlet to feed the pump head.


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 12:49pm
not so handy I know,but if I was in for a lot of cranking I would get a helper and pull it instead. You for sure can spin it faster.


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by TramwayGuy TramwayGuy wrote:

Did you get any smoke when cranking it hot?

And did you try pull starting it also?

When the pump head gets worn, the first symptom is hard starting when hot. The fuel thins out and leaks between barrel and plunger instead of out the lines.

Also, if the supply pump is weak, that could affect it also. You need 5 PSI at the pump inlet to feed the pump head.

Smoke seemed to be less when trying to restart when hot.
Don't like tow starting, want to get it right.

I have seen a picture of a WD45d fiited with a fuel pressure gauge at the pump. Have you ever done it if so any tips on which brand / part number fits best?


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 6:25pm
You should hear the injectors ‘chirping’ while you’re cranking it. Pull starting it can spin it faster and overcome internal leakage. If it starts that way, it just verifies the rest of the engine’s systems.

The pressure gauge can be tee’d into the line between the last filter and the pump inlet.


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 7:23pm
As said pull starting a tractor like that is the way to go,once started it'll probably clear out a lot of problems.I'd get it running dump in some Seafoam and ATF and pull something like a disk with it for a couple hours,you'll be surprised how many problems that cures.


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 7:25pm
And 12 month old diesel fuel shouldn't be a problem.I bought a David Brown 885 couple years ago that had sat for 10 years got it started on the fuel that was in it, didn't run too bad either.


Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 9:07pm
Will start with starter after it cools off? If it does, problem is in pump .
I agree, pull start is not a handy way to start one.                        MACK


Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 11:51pm
some extra info...
http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/wd45-diesel-wont-start_topic177426_post1501179.html#1501179" rel="nofollow - http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/wd45-diesel-wont-start_topic177426_post1501179.html#1501179


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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 5:23am
Originally posted by MACK MACK wrote:

Will start with starter after it cools off? If it does, problem is in pump .
I agree, pull start is not a handy way to start one.                        MACK


Just pull start the first time not all the time,beats burning up a starter.


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 5:36am
Originally posted by JC(WI) JC(WI) wrote:

some extra info...
http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/wd45-diesel-wont-start_topic177426_post1501179.html#1501179" rel="nofollow - http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/wd45-diesel-wont-start_topic177426_post1501179.html#1501179
Thanks for the info


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 5:39am
Originally posted by MACK MACK wrote:

Will start with starter after it cools off? If it does, problem is in pump .
I agree, pull start is not a handy way to start one.                        MACK
Will give it try. Who is the best around for rebuilding these pumps?


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 5:42am
Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

As said pull starting a tractor like that is the way to go,once started it'll probably clear out a lot of problems.I'd get it running dump in some Seafoam and ATF and pull something like a disk with it for a couple hours,you'll be surprised how many problems that cures.
Thanks. I have something similar to seafoam here in Australia. ATF? not sure what product that is? 


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 7:09am
Originally posted by WD in Australia WD in Australia wrote:

Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

As said pull starting a tractor like that is the way to go,once started it'll probably clear out a lot of problems.I'd get it running dump in some Seafoam and ATF and pull something like a disk with it for a couple hours,you'll be surprised how many problems that cures.
Thanks. I have something similar to seafoam here in Australia. ATF? not sure what product that is? 

Automatic Transmission Fluid


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 7:23am
Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

Originally posted by WD in Australia WD in Australia wrote:

Originally posted by Gary Burnett Gary Burnett wrote:

As said pull starting a tractor like that is the way to go,once started it'll probably clear out a lot of problems.I'd get it running dump in some Seafoam and ATF and pull something like a disk with it for a couple hours,you'll be surprised how many problems that cures.
Thanks. I have something similar to seafoam here in Australia. ATF? not sure what product that is? 

Automatic Transmission Fluid
Okay so you run seafoam and ATF in the diesel to clean system out? What ratio?


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 8:08am
Not scientific for sure but if were me with an old diesel I'd probably pour about of half a can of Seafoam and a half a quart of ATF in a full tank of fuel.Once bought an AC 5040 that ran terrible gave it that treatment and pulled it hard with a disk for about 2 hours.It ran and started like a different tractor after that.The carbon coming out of the exhaust about burnt me up though(LOL).Those old indirect diesels need to spin fast to start easy.With my Olivers I can buy the new style gear reduction starters off ebay for a little over $100 that spin the motor faster and makes the tractor start much easier than with the original starters.Don't know if anything like that is available  for the WD45D or not.


Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 9:11am
On your WD45 Diesel, I see you have a new hose and looks like it is hydraulic line from here.
 Some time back there was a discussion on the forum about the rubber hose on some injection pumps, can't remember to which pumps, if it was for the PBS pumps or for the Roose-Masters as used on D15, D17, D19.   But it was important that it had a rubber line there so that it would act as a pulse line... or an accumulater to expand a little bit and then would force fuel into the system when the ports opened in the pump. 
 I hunted for a long time for that thread and can not find it in this site's search engine nor in google's search engine to find the particulars on it.  Maybe somebody else remembers it, or knows where to find the article but the fact was, it was important to that one pump in the system. 
  Now which system is the question. I can see it apply to the roose-masters pumps because they have little blades for low pressure pumping of fuel through the secondary filter,  But also feel like the article pertained to the American Bosch DB pump even tho it has a gear pump for pumping the low pressure fuel.
 Was just thinking here, maybe the fuel system had some cleaner in it for cleaning out the varnish and crud in the system and the cleaning agent has gone bad and gunked the system up worse... thus giving you the terrible smell? Just a another thought. mmm, Could that have been soy-diesel in it? 
  The old diesel fuels had sulfur and other substances in it but the new fuel has a lot of cleaning agents and no real lubricants like the old fuel had, maybe add some 'additives' to condition the fuel, maybe a small amount of oil ?
  Good Luck in finding the cause of the hard starting.
 Love those old WD45 Diesels, something unique about them.

-------------
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: TomC
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 9:12am
Another exceptional product is called Diesel Kleen by power service, it actually cleans. I ran it in my series 60 Detroit,7.3,first and currant 6.0 and my Yanmar 2020D. Noticable difference in how it runs,power and milage. Mixture is 16 oz for every 40 gallons of fuel,do not confuse this with anti gell it won't stop it from gelling , I use Howes for cold weather. You may not notice much difference on the first dose but after that you'll really see a difference.


Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 12:53pm
The Model 100 on IH tractors is the only one I'm aware of a "special" hose is required on, but I'm sure an 8000 series AC would be affected the same way, as those seem to be troubled with lazy yet flutter prone governing anyway. Sounds like the PSB has a worn out head, and that can be rebuilt and saved, though it takes about a year to get it back from rebuilding. Once they seize, it's not savable anymore. Those PSB pumps and the lack of any hard parts for them makes them a thorn in the side of us fuel injection shops. Good luck!

Originally posted by JC(WI)<div>On your WD45 Diesel, I see you have a new hose and looks like it is hydraulic line from here.</div><div><div> Some
 time back there was a discussion on the forum about the rubber hose on 
some injection pumps, can't remember to which pumps, if it was for the 
PBS pumps or for the Roose-Masters as used on D15, D17, D19.   But it 
was important that it had a rubber line there so that it would act as a 
pulse line... or an accumulater to expand a little bit and then would 
force fuel into the system when the ports opened in the pump.  <br></div><div> I
 hunted for a long time for that thread and can not find it in this 
site's search engine nor in google's search engine to find the 
particulars on it.  Maybe somebody else remembers it, or knows where to 
find the article but the fact was, it was important to that one pump in 
the system.  <br></div><div>  Now which system is the question. I can 
see it apply to the roose-masters pumps because they have little blades 
for low pressure pumping of fuel through the secondary filter,  But also
 feel like the article pertained to the American Bosch DB pump even tho 
it has a gear pump for pumping the low pressure fuel. <br></div><div> Was
 just thinking here, maybe the fuel system had some cleaner in it for 
cleaning out the varnish and crud in the system and the cleaning agent 
has gone bad and gunked the system up worse... thus giving you the 
terrible smell? Just a another thought. mmm, Could that have been soy-diesel in it?  <br></div><div>  The old diesel fuels had sulfur and other substances in it but the new fuel has a lot of cleaning agents and no real lubricants like the old fuel had, maybe add some 'additives' to condition the fuel, maybe a small amount of oil ?<br></div><div>  Good Luck in finding the cause of the hard starting.</div> Love those old WD45 Diesels, something unique about them.[/QUOTE JC(WI)
On your WD45 Diesel, I see you have a new hose and looks like it is hydraulic line from here.
 Some time back there was a discussion on the forum about the rubber hose on some injection pumps, can't remember to which pumps, if it was for the PBS pumps or for the Roose-Masters as used on D15, D17, D19.   But it was important that it had a rubber line there so that it would act as a pulse line... or an accumulater to expand a little bit and then would force fuel into the system when the ports opened in the pump. 
 I hunted for a long time for that thread and can not find it in this site's search engine nor in google's search engine to find the particulars on it.  Maybe somebody else remembers it, or knows where to find the article but the fact was, it was important to that one pump in the system. 
  Now which system is the question. I can see it apply to the roose-masters pumps because they have little blades for low pressure pumping of fuel through the secondary filter,  But also feel like the article pertained to the American Bosch DB pump even tho it has a gear pump for pumping the low pressure fuel.
 Was just thinking here, maybe the fuel system had some cleaner in it for cleaning out the varnish and crud in the system and the cleaning agent has gone bad and gunked the system up worse... thus giving you the terrible smell? Just a another thought. mmm, Could that have been soy-diesel in it? 
  The old diesel fuels had sulfur and other substances in it but the new fuel has a lot of cleaning agents and no real lubricants like the old fuel had, maybe add some 'additives' to condition the fuel, maybe a small amount of oil ?
  Good Luck in finding the cause of the hard starting.
 Love those old WD45 Diesels, something unique about them.[/QUOTE wrote:




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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!


Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 5:22pm
The late Don Bradley used to talk about Taylor Diesel in Columbia MO being his go to place for the Bosch PSB. If I remember correctly, Don told me that the rubber hose was necessary because it would surge at high speed no load if it was swapped out for a steel line.

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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 7:41pm
“ Some time back there was a discussion on the forum about the rubber hose on some injection pumps, can't remember to which pumps, if it was for the PBS pumps or for the Roose-Masters as used on D15, D17, D19.   But it was important that it had a rubber line there so that it would act as a pulse line...”

I do know that this was an issue on some Olivers with the PSB pump. I think 770 and 880. Those had a camshaft-operated supply pump, if that would make any difference?


Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 7:59pm
It is the WD45D that needs the rubber hose.                 MACM


Posted By: WD in Australia
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 5:41am
Originally posted by MACK MACK wrote:

It is the WD45D that needs the rubber hose.                 MACM

Thanks everyone for your help. Given me plenty to think about and a good plan of attack.


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WD(NF), WD45(WF), WD45D(WF), XT190D(WF), Model U, Gleaner C, All Crop 60, Rotobaler


Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 1:02pm
“ It is the WD45D that needs the rubber hose.   ”

It shows a rubber hose in the photo.


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2021 at 1:08pm
Yes it does but it looks a lot like hydraulic hose which probably would be quite a bit more resistant to flexing and I doubt the pressure is enough to "move" it. Beyond that,I bet his problem is not with the hose.



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