Couple electrolysis questions.
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Topic: Couple electrolysis questions.
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Subject: Couple electrolysis questions.
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 8:53pm
| I set up a 55 gallon electrolysis tank. I used sodium carbonate and a small automatic charger that I have had laying around. It seems I am getting good results so far. I do have a question though. How long do you typically let it stew in there? Also, what sort of amperage do you push through your charger? This is fun! |
Replies:
Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 9:04pm
|
time on this is a relative thing, it depends on so many things, how rusted the part is, how dirty it is, the size of your anode vs the part, how clean you keep the anodes, amps being put to it, distance from part to anodes, how much paint is on it, and what type, complexity(holes,details,etc) as it is a line of site system, so the part may have to be turned several times to get it all. the best part is that when the rust is gone-the reaction stops, so I tend to as the commercial says "set it and forget it" I have tiny parts in a cup, up to my big pieces in a 300 gallon tank. Most all the time I run about 6-10 amps, and I would say to get the results I want - 12 to 48 hours cleaning the anodes at least twice a day, more if I see things are slowing down. Play with it, you'll find what works for you! hope this helps Joe ------------- Allis Express North Georgia 41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's, Ford 345C TLB |
Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 9:07pm
| Hey Joe, I noticed you have a 41 WC listed. Is this a newer addition, or have you had it for awhile? Haven't heard from you in a while, hope you and yours are doing well. |
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 9:08pm
| Thanks Joe. I have had it in there sense Sunday. Looks pretty clean. I will clean the anode and flip the part around and let it go another couple days. |
Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 9:44pm
hey Dream, she's not new, it was my first Allis. Belonged to my wife's great-grand Father, bought new, never off the farm until it came to my house. Just need to finish it up! ( Glock, every piece of this tractor was cleaned with electrolysis!) ------------- Allis Express North Georgia 41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's, Ford 345C TLB |
Posted By: ChuckLuedtkeSEWI
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 6:13am
| Cleaning the annodes often helps. If your charger has an ampmeter on it, you will see the amps drop down as the annode fills up with rust. When you clean it off and put it back in, amps will go back up and the process will speed up. As the part finishes the process the amps will drop to nothing as there's no more rust to pull off. Joe is the AC expert on electrolysis. When I first got going with it, I learned most everything from his advise. It helps also to have alot of surface area of annodes. In my bigger tank, I put four or five annodes around it, and then link the annodes together with small jumper cables with alligator clips. It does take time but if you spend 10 minutes in the am and pm cleaning the annodes, in one or two days you will have a part that all the rust, grease etc. is cleaned off. Even if a big part takes three days to clean, the hour worth of cleaning annodes is still less then trying to degrease and then sandblast or sand it. And the part doesn't get harmed or warped like if you would sandblast it. I have a small sandblasting cabinet and since I started using electrolysis, I haven't used it once. |
Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 6:27am
| Does Electrolysis affect critical machined surfaces? I have shafts with rust is this a concern? Also gears, etc. I'll assume it is OK, some of these sufaces are machined with a nice finish to some fairly critical dimension, does it leave the surface a more porous way? |
Posted By: Bee
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 6:49am
|
Found this link in an old post which explains the process- http://www.fboerger.com/restorationtips.html#electrolysis ------------- Bob, North Carolina 1949 B |
Posted By: Lance/SC
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:04am
| Chris, I am far from an expert on this but I have been using a 20 gallon tote for a couple of years on small parts and have gotten excellant results. Keep in mind that the process only removes rust so as in Allis parts that have been outside for several years, when cleaned will show pitting due to the rusting. One thing, I have cleaned parts that were painted and part of the paint will fall off when it is removed from the tank and a water hose will knock off most of the rest but it still needs going over with a wire brush or wheel. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:05am
|
I did the block for my 35WC in a 55 gal plastic drum. It coked for 2 1/2 weeks but it was dirty and greasy and I had limited anodes. I would turn it every day and clean the electrodes at least once a day. Because of the limited anode I don't think I ever got more than a couple amps at a time but the block turned out looking like new. Joe, the WC sure looks different than when I saw her. Good job. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:08am
|
Joe, Is that a good starter tank hanging on that yellow bracket? Seems hard to find a usable starter tank. Charlie ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:53am
|
Nobody mentioned that if you use scrap stainless steel for the sacrificial anode they stay cleaner much longer and sometimes forever on just rusty parts.
I spose a post on the chromate danger will follow but I already been down that road.
try it you will like.
|
Posted By: jjrosty
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 9:23am
| I have found that pieces of expanded metal work great. also higher voltage really makes lots of bubbles. i have a friend that uses 36v battery charger to clean up old wood working machines like saws & planners, he uses a small swimming pool about 20" deep. some of the stuff hes cleaning weighs several thousand pounds |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 9:41am
|
Dave,
I do have to post the obligatory warning on the stainless, having been involved with chrome plating/electropolishing for a couple decades. The use of stainless is as seductive as you point out, but the bill for the hazardous waste you create will bankrupt you if you get caught disposing of it improperly.
There is a Superfund site in southern Georgia, that will likely never be remediated due to improper actions in a chrome machine. All they can do is monitor the groundwater and hope the containment berms and drains work properly. I was there, after the damage was done, (the plant manager went to prison), and I know how big the initial bill was, as well as the ongoing costs. One of the guys who "followed orders" committed suicide after realizing the gravity of the situation that had been created.
Chromium and chromates are deadly poisons, which have long term impacts on the world around us.
If you are going to use stainless as a sacrificial anode, PLEASE be sure dispose of your "sludge" in an environmentally approved way.
Your friend Glenn
|
Posted By: ChuckLuedtkeSEWI
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 4:16pm
| What I use is Krud Kutter Must for Rust. It is a spray solution that you can buy at Home Depot. Once the part is clean, I rinse it down and then dry it off with a blow nozzle. Once dry, I spray it down with the Krud Kutter and it is an acid etching solution that will keep the bare metal from re rusting. I have parts sitting on the shelf from three years ago that still look like I got done with them yesterday. |
Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 6:16pm
|
Joe, she looks nice and clean. I know i'm probably going to get beat up by the correct police for this, but I really like the way she looks with that silver color. Just suppose you were to paint the rims orange and the tractor a nice silver. I bet it would look sharp.
Hmm, I just noticed the front rims are a particular shade of yellow. Be careful, she may get an inferiority complex and stop running right.LOL!
|
Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 6:53pm
|
Chuck
Check the label on the crud cutter and see if it is not mostly phosphoric acid.
curious here?
|
Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:34pm
you have to love anything that will help you undo rusted bolts and pieces that were as bad as these were off a 1920's plow I have the biggest flaw I see with the ever popular rebar is the lack of surface area VS the area of the part cleaned. I use old lawn mower blades,old bushhog blades, scrap sheet steel etc for mine. Rebar just doesn't have the surface area I like to have. Charlie, that's the same tractor, just with all the flash rust gone off it, the starter tank was full to the rim with kero when I brought it home, or I believe it would have rusted through long ago. Really need to get busy on it! Dream, that's just some yellow primer I have left over from working at Deere on the wheels. Krud Kutter is phosphoric acid, it's just cheap and easy to pick up at Stupid Depot when needed. |
Posted By: acdeerboy123
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:36pm
| how do you post pictures on your own forum |
Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:41pm
|
the biggest thing I have to remind people about is if you hook it up backwards, your part goes away instead of the rust, (ask me how I know that one!!!!) here's some pictures of some of the things I've done and ideas of containers to use. I even cut a small ditch with a turning plow, lined it with plastic and did the frame rails on the WC. One picture shows four picnic table benches and some plastic for a large part. http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/Joecdeere/Electrolysis/?albumview=slideshow - http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/Joecdeere/Electrolysis/?albumview=slideshow ------------- Allis Express North Georgia 41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's, Ford 345C TLB |
Posted By: ChuckLuedtkeSEWI
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:41pm
| Yes, it is phosphoric acid in there. |
Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:45pm
|
jjrosty, I have a 48 volt charger I used to use on really big pieces, was checking a clamp on a part and got bit good, enjoyed chest pains, muscle trouble in that arm, and a irregular heart beat for two days, haven't used it any more, my fault, but a safety concern anyway. I'll wait the little bit of extra time on the 12 volts!!
------------- Allis Express North Georgia 41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's, Ford 345C TLB |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 7:59pm
|
Along with a shop battry charge I built 30 years ago, I'm using a junk MIG welder. Was using a bunch of 1 x 2 band iron, then realized that those old blades from the mower deck would work as well, so use them now. I've got a plan for doing frame rails - get a plastic driveway culvert, cut it in half, butt the ends together, strap 2 x 4s along the sides, and cap the ends with plywood and RTV. It's been many years since I've hooked up the sand blaster. |
Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 8:36pm
|
neat ideas, I will try that expanded metal trick. I found a battery in line really helps speed stuff up too but if the charger times off it runs the battery dead.
------------- 1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 8:46pm
|
I bought four mega amp diodes (these puppies are good for several hundred amps!) and built a bridge rectifier and am planing on hooking it on the output of my Lincoln 225 AC welder and run it at about 90 volts. I just haven't figured out if the electrolysis tank will offer sufficient load so as to not allow current runaway ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2010 at 9:53pm
|
Where i worked we used this method to clean parts of photo-resist residue and surface oxidation on precision parts before etching them.
We used SS tanks and used the tank itself as a anode. To prevent the part from contact with tank we used fiberglass window screen as a insulator. Using a bussbar across tank top we hung parts into bath , Cleanes all kinds of metals and alloys this way but time in tank was 5 to 40 seconds at 10 Amp. Any more and it would lift the photo-resist coatring.
There we also had plating baths for Nickle, chrome, copper , black nickle, silver and gold so many different metals went to waste treatment. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 6:59am
| Yes Coke, waste treatment is the key. It is there that you can precipitate out the different metals and neutralize the acids, etc. Any waste byproducts that are "nasty" can be isolated and disposed of properly. |
Posted By: Bee
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 7:27am
So, what is the process to get to paint? do you have to remove the Krud Kutter by washing before priming? If so, with what? ------------- Bob, North Carolina 1949 B |
ChuckLuedtkeSEWI wrote:Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 7:54am
|
I have a question...I will be doing some of this soon.
Since I will be using a plastic tank.
1.Does my part to be cleaned need to "hang" or can I place it in the bottom of the tank?
2. Can my sacrifice anode make contact with the plastic tank?
|
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 8:00am
1) yes, for best results and 2)yes ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 8:18am
|
Tom, It is best if you can get a large surface area of the part facing the largest surface of the anode. Hanging the part also makes it easier to rotate to get the "dirty" side to face the anode. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 8:43am
Thanks Chuck and Lou.
Having the part hang will be impractical for some of these parts so I am willing to have slower clean rate, just want to be sure it will still work. Dont mind flipping and repositioning the part...
|
Posted By: jjrosty
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 8:53am
|
THe same guy that is cleaning the old wood machines also told me "Black to the Bailey" as in planes. so the black always goes to what your cleaning. I didn't think AC current would work? |
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 10:37am
|
I have not tried this yet but would like to. Is the part to be cleaned the positive or negative from the charger? ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 12:55pm
| Neg to the part!! I use a 250 gallon tote with the top cut out of it. |
Posted By: Boomer
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 2:11pm
| Has anybody tried it on a much larger scale. Like a whole body of a military jeep? What happens if there is bondo on the metal? How quick do you paint after use this method? |
Posted By: Boomer
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 2:12pm
| What happens if you have bronze bushings? |
Posted By: Lance/SC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 7:13pm
| Rawleigh, what do you use for anodes and what how far apart are they? Got any Pics? |
Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 11:16am
|
I am using some old metal shelving. I used four at a time, one on each side. I made jumpers from wire and battery clips to string them together. I put a cinder block in the bottom to keep the part up off the floor. I have heard of a person digging a pit and lining it with plastic to do trailer frames. They used a DC welder for that job. |
Posted By: TomYaz
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 11:57am
|
Ok I started mine around 5:30 PM last night.
Used a 50 gal ruubermaid plastic tank waterer.
Used lye instead of washing soda...
For sacrificial anodes I bracketed the allcrop 60 piece with two MF plow landsides ..(with pleasure heheh)
Rested part on bottom of tank, no "hanging" I believe the plastic serves as an insulator from the other side of the equation.
Seems to work great...can hear the fizzing crazy like an just opened can of soda!
12 hours later is still fizzing; working on the rust...
Here is a formula I found that supposedly works even better:
Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) 75 grams/liter 10 0unces/U.S. gal.
Sodium Hydroxide (lye)__________12.5__________1.7 Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)_______25___________3.3 Sodium Silicate (water-glass)_____12.5__________1.7 Lucky for me I have a gallon of water glass laying around...(doesnt everyone?)
Will have to try this formula some time
|
Posted By: clovis
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2010 at 4:44am
| This has been a great thread...I've always wanted to try this method...thanks for the great posts everyone. |