sleeve "O" rings
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17439
Printed Date: 06 Feb 2025 at 12:03am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: sleeve "O" rings
Posted By: kendak
Subject: sleeve "O" rings
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 7:17pm
| ordered a set of AGCO sleeve "O" rings for a WD-45 from a "Site Sponsor" at $5.12 EACH...$40.96 & postage....had a thought & went to my local hydrolics shop & the same "O" ring comes in a pack of 10 for $.60 [thats cents] or .06 each retail...shop owner told me he pays .02 each for these...I know that they need to make a profit but this is way out of line...would have sent them back but had already opened then to measure size ...thanks for letting me vent because this really sticks in my craw...what is called stupid tax down here...take care ...Kent |
Replies:
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 7:32pm
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be careful, sleeve orings are sometimes made of different material, but for a play tractor, you'll probably never know the difference.
------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 8:49pm
| inj pump ed is right,the "o" rings you get off the shelf could be buna-n ,synthetic or for an ester based fluid.you did the right thing by going and buying the peoper ones.at least you will be assured they will fit,stand the temperatures and all the conditions they were designed for.hope you get a real good engine out of it |
Posted By: powertech84
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 8:55pm
| I bought a set from the agco dealer a couple weeks ago. 4.37 a piece. |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 6:53am
| I realize that the "O" rings can be made from different material but these hydrolic "O" rings are rated at 2000psi. & from -20 to + 450 degrees so they are well able to handle anything that happens inside the engine....the spec. are listed on the mfg. package....same thing on the front main crankshaft seal for the WD-45 the AGCO price $16.50 ...bought at Auto Zone for $2.75...AGCO price on cam bearings $28.75 EACH when you can buy the SET [all three] at CarQuest for $17.85...it's called greed...take care ...Kent |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:40am
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Thinking that hydraulic O rings are not as good as what you would buy from AGCO would be to not know much about hydraulics and not thinking. I have removed O rings from hydraulic valves that have held oil from leaking for over 20 years with the press running 24 hours a day 5 days a week or more under 2000 pounds of spiking pressure.
I have been buying my O rings for tractor sleeves from the company that I buy hydraulic supplies for many years. Thinking that they would be unsuitable is just silly.
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Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:53am
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One thing that I would be worried about that hasn't been mentioned here is how much would the different rings swell compared to the new rings. The tolerances are very tight and a little too much swelling could leave you with a scored piston. This can be brought about also by using the wrong kind of lubricant when installing sleeve o-rings. I know on my 301 it has a Buna-N ring on top and a silicone on the bottom of the sleeve, so that would probably be pretty easy to match up if you got the durometer rating of the material. I know it's frustrating, but sometimes it can be worth paying for the parts that are guarenteed to fit and work properly, especially on something as major as an engine sleeve. Hurst------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:54am
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Ours are 2.50 each. That basically covers the time for me to run to my supplier in Tulsa and pick them up. It also covers the initial research I did to find the right size since the ones I removed were so damaged. It took a few tries. Ours are Buna, usually 70 durometer but ocassionally 90 since it's tough to get the suppliers to carry 8 at a time for some reason. When they have them, I buy 40 at a time.
Remember too that when you get to small $ items, your retailer has just as much if not more handlig in them than larger items. It's easier for me to sell an engine kit than O rings by a long shot, so my markup % is much less on the kit.
Can't comment on AGCO's pricing other than to say, you are asking/expecting them to stock parts for a tractor they decided was no longer financially viable 50 years ago.
JimD ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:56am
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Oh, and Kent, I pay about .60 each depending on size, so your price of .60 for 10 is really good! ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:59am
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300 percent markup is acceptable? ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:05am
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When 300% is $1.90, yes. You will find that many retailers will tough anything with less than a $2.50 markup. Maybe I should just spend more for my rings, then it would be better? ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: John (C-IL)
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:24am
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As a retailer I have to agree that the markup on small items may seem high, but when you consider the cost of filling a $20 order you will eat up most if not all of any margin you could put on a small item with overhead costs. Put another way, I often get chastized for having a 25 cents per bushel margin on corn. So a customer brings in a couple of barrels to get corn, 10 bushels, the total sales margin is $2.50. The labor cost to fill that order is about $5.00, ticket processing is at least $5.00 and my cost to store, elevate and OH cost are around 20 cents per bushel. Did I make any money? Probably not. My only hope is that the customer will buy some higher margined products so I will be here next time they need a couple of barrels of corn.I know the other retailers here may not want to say so, but my attitude isn't real good when that 10 bushel customer comes in and has $200 worth of feed and pet foods in their truck that they purchased from Rural King or Farm and Fleet.
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:33am
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I went to a local parts house the other day . The two orings that go in the ends of my aluminum fuel filter housing had rotted. Anyways to make along storry short they gave me the two orings. Said it was a appreciation of my buisness. Ps i give them the part numbers and the price at which i will purchase the items for and they still appreciate my buisness. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:39am
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Spend some money with us, and I might just toss one in too! But to stand in the peanut gallery and complain that we are overcharging won't fly.
PS. You can call me and tell me part numbers and what price too. If the price is higher than mine, we go with yours. If it's lower, we go with mine. I'm funny that way in that I try to keep my family fed. ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:46am
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Jim I research the price on the e-net . Find the cheapest sale give them the retailers name along with part number and they match it. Even if its from a mail order parts company whos making their proffits on shiping and handling. Its funny but I gues thats why they are a well known parts chain . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 10:02am
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There is no way - no EFFIN WAY, I'd ever use Buna-N for a coolant application - especially when I have one chance and one chance only to get it right. The whole point of replacing parts is to "get it right". The price/markup means nothing to me. A seller has the right to charge what he wants - and I have the right not to pay it. Buna-N is NOT the right material for wet sleeves and I will gladly pay whatever the going rate is for an approved product. That said, I respect Dick L's experience - that carries some weight with me. But I ain't taking the risk. There are many good references for suitability of material for 0-rings, depending on fluid/gasses they are exposed to. None of them name Buna-N for the common engine coolants. They do variously name HNBR, Flourocarbon or EPDM. I have no idea which of those materials were around when A/C designed these motors. But until a better authority presents itself, I'm going to use "Factory" at that location. |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 10:12am
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OK, what material do you recommend? Since I explained the application to my salesman, and he recommended the material. I also had in-hand the original, and some new AGCO rings to compare. It's also possible I'm wrong on what they sell me since I've been buying them for so many years. I just walk in and they hand me whatever stock they have on the shelf. They just keep them in stock for me. I'll have to check my reciept to see what it is. I just remember for sure the durometer #'s because the 70's have been in shorter supply lately, and the 90 are a little harder to install.
Now you have me worried, though I've never had a customer complain of leaking, only that I stuck the wrong ones in the bag. ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 10:37am
Well Jim, I am NOT trying to come off like a know-it-all. What I am is "done it all wrong once" guy who can't afford eff-ups. http://www.manuf-rubber.com/ - http://www.manuf-rubber.com/ http://www.manuf-rubber.com/pdf/Material%20Guide.pdf - http://www.manuf-rubber.com/pdf/Material%20Guide.pdf That's just one source, and it is NOT a recommendation. I fully understand that the old A/C and other old brands are very forgiving - more to their credit. I just can't see risking a $2000 build over 40 bucks worth of o-rings. That 70 durometer - heck it may even be high for a 1940-1950 era design - but I don't know. I also know these things have shelf life, and wonder how many NOS o-rings are being used and if they contribute to more frequent sleeve leaks. Those leaks come up frequently in other forums, both antique and modern engines. Leave o-rings open around any place where electricity is being moved - generators, welding shops and so on - and the ozone will affect any of the neoprene based products - it's the same thing that breaks down the sidewall rubber on tires. Heck, I'll try a non-specced o-ring almost any other location to get something going, but NOT THERE! When I was a kid, doing my first engines, I revered a guy who owned Joe's Industrial - an engine shop in my area. He did all my sleeved Ponchos and Hemis. For me, his word was Law. I don't know if there are any engine shops out there today that has the depth of experience and integrity to give you an informed answer - but that's where I'd start. I'm lucky - we do our own machining, and have engineers to make the calls. HNBR & 70 duro is a guess - but just a guess. The 602 Continentals and 844 LeRois I distinctly remember having a softer bottom 0-ring (softer than 70 duro) and copper at the tops. Oh: HNBR stands for "Hydrogenated Nitrile" - very common in the aircraft field. LOL! - it won't blow up in oxygen! |
JimD wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 11:37am
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A site that has as many options as people have opinions.
http://www.marcorubber.com/orings.htm - http://www.marcorubber.com/orings.htm ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 4:50pm
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301 service manual shows Buna-N for the top o-ring (in contact with the coolant) and a silicone one for the bottom (in contact with the oil I guess?). It didn't have the hardness, but I would guess the buna were 70, since they were a little softer than the normal 90s I have around the shop and the silicone were even softer than that. The service manual should give the material of the o-ring somewhere I would thing.
Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:00pm
| I stand by what I wrote ...these "O" rings that I can get for .06 go in a common cylinder that goes on a dirt tub used in putting the land around here to 0 grade...they are used 12 to 14 hrs. a day for weeks on end ...running 1600psi. at 325 to 400 degrees...antifreeze & oil are not going to hurt these...as for doing it right the first time you don't know me because I am very ticky about the tractors I rebuild ...stick with the 2cyl. Deere's most of the time but this AC is my baby puller...by the way have spent plenty of money with this [site sponsor] but no more ...we could keep this going forever but that don't change the fact that $5.12 is out right thievery...take care ...Kent |
Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:41pm
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EPDM seems to be the material of choice these days for coolant hose but I am sure that stuff was not around back then and the old materials worked fine. I was told horror stories of aftermarket sleeves that required odd seal ring sizes. Maybe the Allis originals stayed consistent.
------------- 1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 8:55pm
| well I'm going to bed ...just like my friend Pankey says "you try your best to help but it don't do any good"....got a good laugh over the guy that said a 2 grand overhaul ...got almost that much in the head & manifold...bye-bye |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:12pm
Yes, EPDM is referenced everywhere, with FEPM starting to make a dent. Buna-N is the first material I'd ever heard in regards o-rings. It's also the cheapest per piece. The A/C design goes back to what - the late 30s? So maybe that's all they had to work with? But what about hardness? CAT's 3400 series was originally built using EPDM, but they had horrible leak problems, and eventually went to HNBR. On the big HP versions, they now use EPDM in the top groove, HNBR in the second, and Viton in the third. Buna-N is working right at its temperature limit when used in a cylinder sleeve location, and HNBR has a comfortable 50% advantage - which means it lives longer. Of the older engines I've worked on - those of the same era - my "recollection" is that the o-rings were softer than the ones on the shelf for hydraulic applications. If I had to guess - maybe 50 duro. When it comes to this particular O-ring application, I've got to go with what Allis Chalmers specced. (heh-heh - it probably IS el cheapo Buna-N). |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:27pm
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Whoooeeeee! I thought we were bad down on the political page! LOL ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:32pm
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i would bet the $5. rings form AGCO ar Buna N. 70 years ago that was your onlly choice. I still use them today. If your building at B-C- WD45 thats fine. IF your building a $10k race engine, maybe majic o-rings are needed. NOT for a factory build on a 50 HP motor that is 70 years old. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:37pm
and you grouse about 40 bucks worth of 0-rings? And bad-mouth a vendor to boot? And risk an engine that has that much wrapped up it it because your "tub" handles 06 cent 0-rings? wow - impressed I'm not. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:38pm
| I have seen the 'will pass for the correct part' o-rings used, they don't conform as the stock units, they generally do not take to the mix of oil and antifreeze and they generally fail when you need them the most. Stick with OEM, you will not regret it in the long run as stated earlier, why risk a major overhaul on going cheap on o-rings? |
Posted By: clovis
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:47pm
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I know a guy that wrecked an Allis C motor years ago using off the shelf, aftermarket o-rings. |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 10:28pm
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If this was me I'd feel I should have investigated options before I ordered product. I'd try to recognize the vendor was selling what I had ordered at an agreed-to price. It would be hard to blame him because I didn't look at other options before I placed the order. I'd look at $40 as a cheap lesson to consider other options in the future if I was so inclined. I'm sure many O rings will work fine, but because of the total dollar investment, I don't look at an engine rebuild as the place to step over dollars to save pennies. ...and life is waaayyyy to short to get hacked over $40 when the seller sold exactly what was ordered. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 6:38am
| good run Mitch ...they still don't get it |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 9:31am
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Lots of opinions without knowing what they are talking about. Plankeys chart would be some help if you click on the material. They will not give away their total formulas.
I have a gaylord of EPDM rubber in my warehouse. EPDM rubber aint worth squat until you mix other things with it. If I go up and open it up it will be one big 500 pound glob.
When I use it I add a curing agent and mix it with polypropylene as the main carrier along with other things that I will not share. EPDM rubber is always mixed in as part of a formula which can change it to withstand different chemicals. It is the rubber part of the formula and will not withstand much by its self.
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Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 5:31pm
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What I do get is that this post is less about O rings and more about business. You're upset with a vendor because you now think you made a bad buy decision before you researched an item. If you buy your groceries at store "x", buy bananas at $.69/lb, stop at store "Y" on the way home to get meat and find out this store has bananas for $.35/lb, do you go back to the first store and demand a refund because their bananas are twice as expensive as the second store?
It seems nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions anymore. It's always someone else's fault. If reducing cost to the lowest penny is your driving factor, maybe rubber bands would be a good substitute for O rings. They can be found for free. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 8:20pm
| I think since everyone has been so helpful I'll just put a bead of hi-temp silicone on them & leave the rings off...ran [3] years that way as a stock puller till I dropped a valve |
Posted By: Jamie NC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 8:24pm
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Sounds good to me!! go for it!! ------------- Allis tractor puller CA WC WD D17 |
Posted By: kendak
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 8:25pm
| no you are wrong ...what upsets me is the fact that a .06 "O" was marked up to $5.12 & you are right I didn't check prices because I have bought from them before & always thought they were on the up & up...like I said in the first post it's called stupid tax ..shame on me for trusting someone |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 8:29pm
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And the material in that .06 ring may last the first time you run the engine. O-rings for sleeves tend to not stand oil well, to the point that using an oil rather than an approved soap to lubricate them at assembly causes rapid deterioration. But they stand up to antifreeze, both types, heat and vibration. Rings that stand up to oil are used in hydraulics and aren't affected by being immersed in oil, different material that those for sleeves. Gerald J. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 9:33am
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use dow corning 111 silicone grease on all o rings that are being assembled and have no deteriation of any material that o ring was produced by . Its stands to reason that any chemical used on material that isnt chemical resistant to the chemical being applied to material causes deteriation. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 12:25pm
Yup, I used to think that too, and did use silicone spray and grease on a lotof stuff:  Source: http://www.advantageengineparts.com/ - http://www.advantageengineparts.com/ Nowadays, I use exactly the same stuff as I did with my first sleeve job: "soapy water solution", otherwise known as Murphy's Oil Soap. Some fellas I know prefer Palmolive (they like to keep their hands silky smooth). The other thing that matters and isn't mentioned in the quoted article, is "stiction". Since whatever lube used is in a confined space, and not subjected to a lot of flow, it stays around in that location a long, long time. And here's the deal - Silicone lubricates REALLY well. Which sounds good except: doing that allows the face of the seal to move against the bore it rests in - and that ain't good. Every time that cylinder fires, and that piston moves up and down, there's a tendency for the sleeve to move too. Well, that head and gasket holds it in place pretty well - but not absolutely - there is still micro thousands of motion going on. What the goal of the o-ring fitting properly is - that it fill the groove its fitted to, then have enough "stiction" to grab the outer bore. What's left is that the o-ring material in the middle flexes - along the same line as holding a wad of sticky bread dough between your hands, then rolling it up and down - the outer bread dough sticks to your hands, and the dough in the middle has to move. This way, the outside diameter of the o-ring isn't abraded away from that micro-motion of the sleeve in the bore. A hydraulic cylinder goes up and down a few times a day. An actuator valve cycles a few times a day. The seal at a hydraulic fitting relies on static adjustable compression. But an engine at 1400 rpm (or 5000) man, that adds up really fast. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 12:40pm
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Ih have several promblems. http://www.dowcorning.com/content/news/iam_news32.asp - http://www.dowcorning.com/content/news/iam_news32.asp ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |