D17 series IV loader cyl/hydraulic questions
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=173763
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Topic: D17 series IV loader cyl/hydraulic questions
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Subject: D17 series IV loader cyl/hydraulic questions
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 2:18pm
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group! after pulling old allis out of slumber it seems that I am going to be chasing some hydraulic leaks  none are bad enough to not use the machine, after a couple of hours it will be down 1/2-3/4 of a quart, but I don't like the mess. I have been having a really hard time coming up with any info on the loader. I am throwing up the flag and asking for help. the 2 cylinders on the right have a case of the drips, and also the hydraulic pump is weeping at the end cover (closest to you, not the side against the machine) I was hoping to snug up the bolts on the pump, but they are bass acwards so if I have to pull the pump to reseal, so be it. questions: 1) if I pull the hydraulic pump, it should just slide off, correct? looks like there is just a splined shaft and a plain old oil seal between the pump and tractor. will this require draining the system? 2) any good places to find the seals? looks like a bunch of 0-rings and some E looking seals. some seem very proud (200+ bux) for the seals, and some sell kits with wear plates. any thoughts of what I will need "since you're there"? 3) I have struck out finding ANY info on the loader, let alone seals for the rams. again, any source/parts break down for the loader? I have looked for an ID plate/stamp on it, and can't find anything any info would be great  loader:  pump:  as an aside, is a D17 S4 Diesel hydraulic pump the same? i have a parts machine and thought about robbing that one to reseal and just swap them out |
Replies:
Posted By: Gatz in NE
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 2:58pm
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an AC 400, maybe ? The SIV pump rotates CCW as viewed from the end plate as in the picture and has a bevel gear drive from the quill shaft which is live from the engine. Your engine rotates CW from the front, so the SIV pump is not going the right direction. Besides that, the SIV pump is low pressure, high volume; looks like what you have is high pressure low volume cylinders. (could be wrong, tho') A good source for hydraulic cylinder repair parts if Baum Hydraulics in Omaha https://www.baumhydraulics.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.baumhydraulics.com/ you can call them and describe the cylinders as to size and they will more than likely have what you need. |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 3:21pm
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both machines are a series 4. 1 gas, 1 diesel, but still not sure if it's a good idea to swap them anyway, I have been digging since I posted. seems I have a 500 loader, as the 400 had a reservoir in the frame. either way, still not any closer to finding the seals I need 
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Posted By: Gatz in NE
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 3:42pm
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Yes, the 400 does have a reservoir in the upright. OK, I could not see the pump on the tractor with loader. On closer inspection, I see hoses behind the loader frame upright. No reason why the pump cannot be swapped out then, as they are the same. |
Posted By: Joe(TX)
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:04pm
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The 400 and 500 frames both came with and without reservoirs. The D17 series IV used the one without. The ones with were for tractors with front pumps. The AGCO parts book is https://na.apb.agcocorp.com/p/agcoallis/79006059/l/84" rel="nofollow - https://na.apb.agcocorp.com/p/agcoallis/79006059/l/84 for the loaders. ------------- 1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:08pm
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funny, I JUST found that. I can't make heads or tails of the seals though. I guess I will have to call around. sandy lake implement popped up in a search, so I will give them a call. my ultimate fear is having the cylinders torn down and have all the wrong parts in front of me. EDIT: ok, so I see under 400 cylinders they list the 500. they don't offer a "master seal kit" that comes with everything? that is what I am looking for it seems that the seals are the same, 400 or 500 but looking at that breakdown it's clear as mud as to what is what |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:21pm
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That would be an Allis 500 Series Farm Tractor Loader, Model 517 for D-17 Ser.IV If you are able to access GrandpasTractors website, he has a copy of the original Allis Parts Catalog D47 for Loaders prior to 1965. Page 33 has the Part Numbers for components of the Lift Cylinder. Gary |
Posted By: Joe(TX)
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:28pm
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If you look at the part numbers, It looks like all the cylinders use the same piston packing and O-rings. ------------- 1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A |
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:35pm
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Joe Regarding 400 Series and 500 Series Loaders, D-17 use only one of 2 styles of Loader Frames. Series I, II, and III use the 400 Series Frame with the L/H Oil Reservoir along with the Tilt and Lift Hydraulic Levers. Requires the Front Mounted Pump. Series IV uses the 500 Series Frame with no Oil Reservoir and no levers. Pump is the on board Pump mounted in the Belt Pulley Hole. Of course any D-17 after leaving the Factory could suffer a 'Mattress and Box Spring Mix and Match Sale' and be any combination that might work. Gary |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 4:40pm
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thanks gary looks like the site is dead. I just futzed with the wayback machine and there wasn't a lot of info saved on the net. faceless book link was dead too |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 5:16pm
| A 400 loader on any D-17 requires unbolting the tower crossbar brace over the hoods because it's too close. A 500 loader on a D-17 has taller towers and the crossbar brace doesn't need to be removed to take off the hoods. |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 6:10pm
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well thanks guys. I am guessing that there isn't a kit available and I will have to order the parts individually. no big deal, I was just hoping for a kit. thanks to everyone who chimed in |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 6:48pm
| Loader ram V-packing is 70341483.....70923664 rod seal....70343390 rod backup ring.....70923577 large Oring….70343382 rod wiper seal. These are from AGCO, but a good dealer may have a seal "kit" from an outside source that has all these parts in one bag. |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:23pm
I feel like such a toolbag  my confusion came with the part number layout on that agco page. it reads like this part# part# part# part# part# ********middle figure******* part# part# part# *******bottom figure******* man...I feel stupid. I thought European parts catalogs were confusing. that's why it just wasn't making sense to me. anyway, DR I thank you for feeding me the #'s. looks like tilt and lift cylinders are the same parts. once I figured out the parts book, I came up with this:  so...anything else I should get? piston? I added a back up washer, do these wear or do I just want the seals? I have limited experience in hydraulic cylinder rebuilds but have done a few. if there is something I need/don't need feel free to grill me  i feel like such a fool getting tripped up by the parts book. took dinner and a beer to see it clearly 
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 7:26pm
| Just get the seal kits and try them. Now, a tool to remove the nut so you can disassemble them. A hammer and punch isn't cool. |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 8:31pm
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I have a bunch of face spanners, but these seem to be square, not round. also looks like the seal could pop out and get a better bite in there. do you have a tool number? I can make something if need be |
Posted By: structures
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 10:19pm
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You might check with Sandy Lake Implement. I saw a post from them where they had a loader seal kit. I need to do some seals on a 500 loader myself. ------------- Robert http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82702&KW=structures&title=structures-1964-allis-d15-series-ii" rel="nofollow - 1964 D15 Series II |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 7:20am
that was my plan. seems that they posted in another thread...but it was a long time ago, think 2011 |
structures wrote:Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 10:16am
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If you are rebuilding them and it's been sitting for awhile you might want to clean off the exposed sections of the ram. Use emery cloth to get them smoothed out. If you don't clean off the crud they will take out your new seals. Run your hand down the ram and you should feel what I'm taking about. ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 10:18am
WOOF  73.00 bux a kit for the loader cylinders and 80 bux for the rear lift cylinder. once I get the parts I will reverse engineer them. no friggen way are those seals worth that much. |
Posted By: structures
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 11:46am
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I just got a rear lift cylinder kit for my D17 IV off DJS for around $40. I'm not sure if they have loader seals though. ------------- Robert http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82702&KW=structures&title=structures-1964-allis-d15-series-ii" rel="nofollow - 1964 D15 Series II |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 1:16pm
it did sit in a shed so it was fairly protected. before I even moved it I went and cleaned off a few scabs. these cyls have leaked a bit for a long time.
I saw those, but evidently there are a few types of rear cylinders. it will be a couple weeks before I see the seals. I will keep this updated as I progress. i'm not going to take anything apart until I have the seals in hand |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 2:42pm
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Rusty, go ahead and order the parts, gather tools, etc., But in the meantime, top the fluid, and run it a bit. If it's been sitting a long time, there's probably enough moisture and air in there to cause the seals to weep a bit. As long as there's no nasty edges on the cylinders or pump shaft, it very well may clean up it's act and resume a continent disposition... if not, it'll at least scrub those chromed surfaces good before you swap in new seals. And... before you swap seals, rub the running surfaces clean of any pitting,etc that might cut the new seals. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Rusty Allis
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2020 at 9:13pm
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well... finally got my seals today. the 500 series loader lift and tilt seals are KIT # 70584481 from agco. I got these from SLI and I am not sure if I over paid but happy to have them. the #'s posted earlier in the thread are correct for individual numbers, but this kit # has everything you need. now, I had a rockshaft cylinder that started pissing REAL bad out of the vent. it just juiced all over...the tire, the tractor you name it...made a total mess. my (ahem) f-i-n-e high quality I&T manual was useless when it came to removal of said cylinder. I routed around and found a clevis that held the forward most pin in place, but couldn't really see a way to get the pin out once that clevis was removed. to add to that, the loader frame was in the way. I decided to do the rockshaft cylinder in place. I just didn't feel like fighting with the forward pin. anyway I broke the gland nut free and just resealed it in place. that cylinder required a hone. a bit rusty inside and the seals were just plain rusted to the pistons. I ended up glass beading the pistons then polishing them up...came out nice. the shaft itself was near mint. odd that the cylinder was rusty. it honed out ok for the most part. in a perfect world, it could have been much better. but so far, no more high pressure squirt all over the place, and no drip either. I also did one lift cylinder. that was fairly uneventful. after getting my azz kicked on the rockshaft cylinder I gave up for the day and will do the tilt cylinder over the weekend I think. I think I am going to take all the bits I have removed to a local hydraulic shop and see if I can get the parts a bit cheaper. not sure if I can, but worth a shot, as I know I will have to do the other 2 loader cylinders at some point and i'm sure the other rockshaft cylinder will pop at some point. all in all not a hateful job, I just wish I was able to pull the RS cylinder off the machine. |