185 #6 injector line
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=172862
Printed Date: 28 Jun 2024 at 5:25am
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Topic: 185 #6 injector line
Posted By: 185turbo
Subject: 185 #6 injector line
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 10:08pm
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I rebuilt the pump on my 185 and was putting it back on and somehow managed to damage the threads on the injector nut for #6 injector, the threads crossed. Is the line still available? Any suggestions to fix/rethread injector nut or could you just get a new nut and install on line somehow? Thanks in advance ------------- 185 turbocharged w/ 500 loader , WD |
Replies:
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 4:30am
| Yes you can get a new nut and Farrell . Cut line off next to old Farrell. MACK |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 4:39am
Shortening the line will cause the timing of the injector to be off. best to find the line... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 7:02am
| No more than the length of ferrule would lose,I'd not worry about the timing issue. |
Posted By: 185turbo
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:23pm
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The line is available, but the nut and ferrule is also available seperate, how would you go about removing and installing the new nut and ferrule? ------------- 185 turbocharged w/ 500 loader , WD |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:37pm
| Fuel delivery lines are hydraulics operation, does not matter the length once filled as Diesel does not compress and delivery is the same at either end of the tube at pressure. Same as hydraulic cylinders. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:48pm
| Well that's what I thought too but a long time ago on this forum it was said that there is some expansion of line and actual compression of liquid to effect "perfect "..... |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:55pm
| Deliver Pressure is over 2000lbs, the fluid will only expand the tube minimally as such if inspect later mechanical inject diesels the line lengths vary considerably. Was a OLD theory dated back to early days of diesel. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 1:43pm
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It's been proven the length of the line does change timing. Not sure that so little removed for a new nut and ferrule would make much of a difference. The line length is all the same on any diesel engine made in at least the past 50 or 60 years. That's why the lines are routed the way they are. They are all the same, not like a spark plug wire where you have various lengths just to get the job done. Go look at any diesel engine you have and take the time to measure each line. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 1:46pm
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
DMiller wrote:Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 1:51pm
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I'd like to know more about the modern systems as it seems they do not need the lines to be equal......... this I copied from quora.com. Which doesn't go into details but it seem only modern, microprocessor solenoid run systems do not need equal lines.... why is that? Like I said I don't know much about anything made past 1995. Oops, forgot to include what I copied from quora.com "The
reason they are all the same length is so the timing of the fuel
delivery to all the cylinders is the same. Most early diesels use a fuel
injection pump which deliver fuel via a high pressure piston type
arrangement. Think of a steel cylinder with a steel plunger (piston)
powered by a steel cam to push the piston. This device pushes the fuel
into the injector line which is connected to the injector. The injector
opens at a set pressure. Should one of the lines be shorter then the
fuel pulse would take less time to reach the injector and the injector
would open at a different time in the engine cycle. (when the engine
piston was less advanced in it’s travel than the engine pistons which
had the longer injector lines) Since diesel engines ignite via
compression the timing of the injector pulse is important in determining
the efficiency and power of the engine. The early systems were purely
mechanical. Modern diesels use a different system which allows the use
of a microprocessor to control fuel delivery using electric solenoids." ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 1:58pm
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Here a guy on redpowermagazine.com.... he is from Sweden " Hi! I'm not sure how to write this in english but i give it a try hope you guy's vill understand. Its not only the distance it will travel you also get less quantity of diesel in the line and the diesel who get pressurised also get compressed and then you get less quantity it don't compress the some way and the adjustment of the pump is no longer correct. Its also then the injector closes you get a backlash wave from in the line from the injector to the pump and on the pump where the line is connected you have a "dozzle valve"(?) which job is to damp that backlash and then you shorter the line that backlash coming earlier when that valve is disagned for and that can cause trouble this the pump. So I agree, don't think what way and get a new line. If you don't understand or I write it the wrong way let me now. Hobbe" ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 1:59pm
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Another explaination from a guy on redpower "I got 1150 cat in 74 Ford just pulled the pumps last year to have
the seals replaced $550. Those are cat pumps made with cat seals.
needless to say they were built for injector lines to be different
lenghts but that not every line, several are matched to one another. If
you think $550 was alot, I also had to replace the 8 rubber injector
boots and 4 small line rubber line connectors hit me for $115. I would
bet on 300% mark up over cost. But cat's was the only place I could
find them. That means for every different length of line they should
be either different piston size or stoke length change. rossmaster
pumps run all cylinders on one pump piston so all the lines must be the
same. Cat's have piston pump per cylinder. I am still learning about
Internationals. Hope this helps you."
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 10:01pm
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1/2" off end of line will make less difference in timing than 50psi difference in popping pressure of injectors. If injectors was set 500 hours ago, they will very that much. There was some engins that used different length lines with different size bore to make up for the different length. MACK
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2020 at 7:41am
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Fuel delivery is in cc per stroke, timing is the point of presentation of fuel pressure, if timing varied more than a degree would be rough enough and smoky enough to cause big problems, it is not. The theory was the line swelled at each impulse, could be a truth but will not vary more than a % of a cc, where with a full fuel line as are designed, as soon as 2000 psi enters at one end the same pressure releases at the other end. All old wives tales and antique engineering. The lines do not vacate at each delivery, they retain a limited amount of residual pressure during normal running.
BTW Lonn, you do not buy a #6 injector assembly for a 1160 cat, you buy A Injector assembly, and Yes the lines on nearly Every Cat engine are varied length, they do NOT use particular Injector assemblies to particular cylinders, ALL are set the same. Been a mechanic since 1975, dealt with Mack, Cat, Allis, Cummins, IH, Detroit and a few odd breeds. Nothing new here.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2020 at 10:17am
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I'm just posting other opinions I found on the net.... That's all. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2020 at 6:03pm
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I believe injectorpumpEd had a post on this very question, not too long ago. Maybe someone better than me at searching can find it... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2020 at 7:08pm
| Pressure travels at the speed of sound of the medium the pressure is in, in this case the diesel fuel. For the length of a fuel line and the speed of sound in a liquid, I can’t imagine it would make much difference but would not quite be “instantly “. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2020 at 7:44pm
| The length and Turns in Injector tubing was put to me by a Mack Engineer. The length is a calculated distance to allow the tubing TO flex without cracking, the bends at the close proximity to the ends is to allow movement without tube failures much as with steel train rails are curved at specific intervals with period break points to allow expansion/contraction. As to distance the amount of time per injection of a diesel is milliseconds, Millionths of seconds, the instant a diesel is running the pressure never really ceases to exist within the fuel lines, it does drift away from Nozzle set point yet never reaches zero until the engine is stopped, that is the reason a dribbling nozzle will seem to Misfire as well Fuel Wash a Cylinder, it must build Back to the necessary pressure and then hold it which it doesn't. A fuel Line length difference of an inch is far less than a millionth of a second up to a factor of 10 in the time scheme, has little to do with the volumetric or principles of fluid flow as the flow seldom slows enough to be considered Stopped. This Lines can be any length and make little impact to the engine. Mack fuel Lines could vary as much as Five inches across the later engines, on the old Cats always a variable up to a few inches, never had issues. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 6:57am
In other words, "not quite" instantly  I could calculate it myself, but we all know, the speed of sound in a liquid over an inch is for all purposes "instantly". |