Rain GaugeDelema
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Topic: Rain GaugeDelema
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Subject: Rain GaugeDelema
Date Posted: 29 May 2020 at 4:52pm
With all of the talk of recent rains, a close friend of mine has always used a tapered/funnel shaped gauge that will hold roughly 4"s of rain for at least 15 years with no thoughts on accuracy/inaccuracy until his wife brought home a new gauge from the local flower/garden center and set it 3 feet away from the "original". The new one is a 2 1/2" straight cylinder that reads consistently 1/2" more than the original  . I would like to know if/what is a test to verify which unit is correct  . My first thought was to put 1"(measured with a tape measure) in soup can and dump that amount into each gauge in question, but am pretty sure that experiment would be skewed ?? Thanks
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Replies:
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 29 May 2020 at 5:24pm
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The rain is 1 inch depth PER SQUARE INCH of surface area... If the opening is 1 x 1 inch, then the rain in the tube ( assuming 1 x 1 square) would be 1 inch tall......... If the opening is 2 x 2 that is 4 square inches, so if it tapers down to the same 1 x 1 square tube, the height would be 4 inches... BUT, the marking on the tube would be 1 inch every 4 inches of height... You have to know the SURFACE AREA of the opening and the DIAMETER of the tube it runs into and how far apart the inch markings are on the tube..... you can not fill it from a cup of known volume, as it depends on the OPEN SURFACE AREA of the instrument. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 29 May 2020 at 6:25pm
Thanks, I had a felling it wasn't going to be a "simple" experiment LOL!! I think I will suggest to him to get a third gauge and average them out  .
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Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 30 May 2020 at 1:17pm
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They can become a National Weather Service(NWS) COOP site and get a real and very accurate rain gauge! Just contact the NWS office for your area and tell them you want to be a site. There are a few inconveniences, but you'll just have to decide if you want to deal with them or not. It looks like your NWS office would be GRR, Grand Rapids. Here's a link: https://www.weather.gov/coop/" rel="nofollow - https://www.weather.gov/coop/ ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: GARY(OH/IN)
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 12:02am
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I'd like to have two things at the farm house. A thermometer and a rain gauge, both in orange. Repop would be fine with me. |
Posted By: nella(Pa)
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 6:17am
| Check the straight side tube rain gauge to see if it is calibrated correctly. If the one inch, two inch, etc. mark is exactly from the bottom it got to be correct. |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 8:45am
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If you use the same amount of volume, in each rain gauge should read the same. Put a 4 or so ozs. in each and check it. ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 9:41am
Not if the gauges are a different shape, as stated in the OP. |
Tracy Martin TN wrote:Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 10:11am
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It doesn't matter the shape or size. Volume is volume. The calibration on the gauge is what changes. The scale in which it reads. Tracy ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 10:21am
| But, with the shape of the mouth open catching rain, it might take 4 oz's to fill one and 4 ounces overflows another, so pouring in a fixed volume is irrelevant. If I have a saucepan, and pour 4 ounces in, it will barely cover the bottom, if I put 4 ounces in a drinking straw, I'll need more than one to hold it, regardless of what calibrations are on the side of it ahead of time. |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 11:15am
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Volume is volume. The shape and size determines the level at which they fill. It is the calibration on the rain gauge itself, that changes to read the given amount in each of the said rain gauges. Tracy ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 11:23am
No way for a exact measure. The best you can do is a gauge like the weather service uses.  And it's probably expensive.But for a cheap test use soup cans or what ever you can find that are the same exact containers. Spread them around your yard then measure away. If you put out 4 or 6 I beat you get different readings in most of them. The more gusty the wind the more differences you will see. The more you are out away from trees,buildings, or even a fence posts the more even they will be.The best way to have more than the neighbor is get him to tell first.  Then stretch the truth as far as you dare. But for knowing how much rain you got I don't really want to wade out in the mud and poring rain to check my gauge way out away from my house. So you find a handy place and leave it in the same spot for years and you average out for storms coming with wind from different directions.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 11:24am
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I get that! Umm......you have a good one sir.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 1:55pm
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Tbone is right on the gauge.. Its an old Engineering problem... Lets say one gauge is 2 x 2 inches... it collects 4 SQUARE INCHES OF RAIN... If it rains 1 inch, then i have 4 CUBIC INCES of rain in the gauge... If the bottom of the gauge is 1 x 1 inch square, then i have a 4 inch column of water... If the bottom is 1 x 2 then i have a 2 inch column of water... if the bottom is 2 x 2 then i have 1 inch of water in the bottom..... so i cant transfer the KNOWN water volumn to another gauge as it might have a different TOP SQUARE inches or a DIFFERENT BOTTOM dimension.... Now you COULD measure the INLET SURFACE AREA of both gauges and then calculate from the the amount of water to put in each gauge.... If the SURFACE area is 4 times BIGGER, then you need 4 times LESS water for the column test. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 1:56pm
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Take a soup can and fill it with water... Call that 4 inches of rain.............. Now pour that full can into a 5 gallon bucket and tell me how much " rain" you have. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 1:58pm
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Yes, and the calibrations show that. And you can't use a fixed volume to validate 2 different calibrations, as Steve is saying, because the inlet would collect it differently. But, I'd given up.
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Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 2:28pm
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You guys are missing the point. Volume is volume. It is the scale on the gauge that has to compensate for the different sizes of rain gauges. If both gauges will hold at least the volume you want to check, it doesn't matter the shape or size. It is a scale that reads the amount of volume. Each scale will be different spacing, but the volume should read the same. HTH, Tracy ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 2:45pm
| 1" of rain is 1" if its 5 gallon bucket or a wash tub |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 4:06pm
| After the second wettest May in record does anyone know where I can get a 10” rain gauge? Getting tired of pouring it out while it’s raining to keep up an accurate reading lol |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 4:22pm
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the problem is the gauges dont have the same cone shape at the top so the DONT have the same VOLUME.. If one is 1 x 1 inch and one is 2 x 2 inches, the 2 x 2 collects 4 TIMES as much water.... The gauge is calibrated to the CONE, not fixed amount of water... The 1 x 1 gauge might collect 1 oz of water during a rain... The 2 x 2 will collect 4 oz of water... Yes, the gauge is calibrated DIFFERENT, but if your running a comparison, you need to pour four times as much water in the BIG gauge to get the same 1 inch reading on the scale as the little gauge.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2020 at 5:18pm
Sadly Tracy, that's the first test we did, a measured 1/4 cup of water into each "victim", 3" of variance
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 10:41am
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Hahahaha!!!!!
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 11:00am
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Tracy, think about this: Let's assume 1 inch of rain fell as an accepted fact. You have a 5 gallon bucket sitting there, put a mark on the bucket, and call it 1 inch. A bucket is slightly conical shaped, so with a tape measure, it won't read an inch, that's where calibration comes in. Each time from here forth, whenever that bucket collects water to that mark during a rain, an inch of rain fell. Next, you want to make another gauge. This time you make it out of something totally different, like a soup can. You can't take the rain from the bucket and pour it in the soup can and make your mark, because the mouth of the bucket would have collected way more rain during the rainfall. You'd have to have them both out in the rain, and when the bucket gets to it's mark, go mark the soup can. A fixed volume cannot be used to compare the two scales. My last thought experiment for you. After this, I give, I really meant it this time
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Posted By: allisrutledge
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 1:32pm
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How the scale is marked on the gage is the difference. If you do not have a scale on the cone one that is calculated for the shape throw it away. I got both and they read the same on the scale. ------------- Allis Chalmers still exist in my mind and barns |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 10:10pm
------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 7:31am
Agree on this! The OP says he has 2 rain gauges, one reads consistently 1/2" more rain than the other. So apparently, if it doesn't rain, one gauge shows 1/2 inch! I "THOUGHT" you were suggesting a fixed volume of water could verify the scales between 2 different shaped gauges, which would not work.I knew all along there was either a misunderstanding, or somebody was missing something simple. Beers on me. 
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Posted By: Dakota Dave
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 10:34am
| Just get an electronic one make sure it's level where you have it and it'll continuously empty it's self. Don't even have to got out and check it. Can also get wind speed and direction temp and humidity without even looking outside. You can have three identical rain gauges set in three differant places in the yard and you'll get three differant readings. I had two of the funnel top gauges set 150' apart. One in he garden one outside my living room. Both in open areas they were always 1/2" apart. Since they were the exact same guage I swapped them they were still 1/2" apart. The living room one always was more than the garden. Unless I had been watering that day then the garden was of course more since it also captured the sprinkler. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2020 at 7:38pm
Not bashing your "electronic" gauge, but how do you know IT'S accurate ?? I've had one 8 years ago but couldn't keep up with the battery changes
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Posted By: Dakota Dave
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 2:59pm
| It's just as accurate as anything else. Take several straight sided 5 gallon buckets set them around your yard in various places. After a good rain fall measure each one with a tape measure. There not going to be the same so which one is accurate. They all are except the one you placed close enough to the barn so it gets roof runoff. I replace the batteries in each of my electronic gauges every two years. They don't change measure amounts until after the remote battery low indicator comes on For a couple weeks then they stop working. The most accurate is the straight sided 5 gal bucket. It captures the largest sample. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:32pm
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Thanks Dave , keeping things "simple" is usually the best/least $$ !!
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 6:58pm
| I honestly can’t say I’ve ever seen a straight sided 5 gallon bucket. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 7:09pm
| Seems like drywall topping mud buckets are pretty "straight sided" ? |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 7:13pm
| Not really the ones I’ve seen |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 8:10pm
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A lot of old steel buckets are straight... tar / roofing , etc........... as far as i know, ALL plastic buckets are taper... probably easier to make and stack empty. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: GARY(OH/IN)
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 1:05am
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Those plastic buckets may stack easier but you have to have an air compressor to get them apart. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2020 at 7:14pm
LMAO !!!! They're even harder to get apart if rain water got down between them
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Posted By: Kansas99
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2020 at 12:49pm
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Well I absolutely have never seen a straight sided 5 gal bucket, every one I ever looked at was round. ------------- "LET"S GO BRANDON!!" |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2020 at 1:00pm
Most of the STEEL ones are straight.. Would be harder to make a TAPERED wall bucket.. Roofing tar / paint/ etc. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 8:41pm
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You guys are missing the point I think. ONE of those gauges is marked WRONG. Even if you take into account the funnel shape, IF that one is marked correctly, it will READ correctly. It IS all about volume as Tracy says. https://www.calculator.net/volume-calculator.html" rel="nofollow"> Volume Calculator - Calculator.netwww.calculator.net › math This free volume calculator can compute the volumes of common shapes, including that of a sphere, cone, cube, cylinder, capsule, cap, conical frustum, ellipsoid ... As I said,,,,,,,,IF the markings on the reciever is correct, no matter the shape ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2020 at 9:20pm
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No, we didnt miss the point... The point was you can NOT take 6 oz of water and pour in both gauges and have them BOTH read the same value.... VOLUME has nothing to do with it.... That was the example of 1 inch of water in a coffee cup compared to 1 inch of water in a 5 gallon bucket... BOTH 1 inch.. NOT the same volume. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 7:04am
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Who knew rain gauges were indeed such a dilemma?!
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 11:09am
Um.....so how do they nest for storage if they're straight? And....don't really think it would be that much harder to make. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 11:26am
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they don't 'nest', same as beer cans, bean cans,pop cans, etc. all have straight sides... Now what I want to know is WHY aren't ALL cans of food 'stackable' in a pantry ? Some cans have slightly rounded bottomes ,so you CAN stack the cans...while others are 'flat' bottomed and don't stack well..... i know, one of life's mysteries..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 12:12pm
Read the ad again. Nice and slow this time!
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 3:03pm
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Tbone, i think you missread Jay... The steel cans have straight sides, but a small BELL at the top.. With the lid on, the 2nd can will set INTO the lid of the first.. Its only 12/ inch, but keeps one from sliding off when stacked.. A lot of soup cans or beer cans are also made that way.
i guess it depends on what your definition of IS is ! ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2020 at 6:10pm
From the add and the picture, it looks like the bottom 1 1/2-2 " of the bucket will "nest" in the upper/wide portion of the pretty-much straight sided looking steel pails
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 7:20am
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I get it, they aren't "as tapered" as a plastic bucket. But also think they wouldn't make a very good cylinder for calculating when it comes to trying to be very accurate. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 7:21am
Steve, the add you posted says this EXACTLY: "Empty pails nest for storage" |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 8:20am
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YEP........... whats your definition of IS... as Freedguy and Jay said, the plastic buckets will NEST inside each other maybe 8- 10 inches... The steel buckets have STRAIGHT WALLS and set in the LIP maybe 1 inch ... with the lid on, then just set inside the 1/2 inch tall lip.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 8:49am
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So you put lids on empty buckets? Wow, well there it IS then!
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 8:51am
| Just having fun here.....because....well, the world sucks! But honestly, I would call that stacking, not nesting. |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 11:50am
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We be a bunch dumb farmers but all are so smart they are not looking to move into the big city. I think there may be a couple of you that are up town in the big city but given half a chance I beat you would move out. Today's big farm problem what rain gauge to believe,which oil to put in my antique tractor. Up town in the big city today, which gang to pay your tribute to as you don't have police as of yesterday cause the mayor went crazy.When it really gets crazy
meet at Shameless's place and will try to take the country  back. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2020 at 4:17pm
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dang it's HOT here... so ... to me 'nesting' means something goes into another something, pretty dang far, say 90+% inside... 'stacking' means something will go on top of anotehr something and not generally far over as for rain guages... yeesh, just go buy 3 same brand/same units and PRAY they ALL read the same...... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 7:15am
to me 'nesting' means something goes into another something, pretty dang far, say 90+% inside.. EXACTLY! So....did you reread the ad Steve posted?
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Posted By: structures
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 8:16am
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Did the rain gauge ever get solved? If the new one is just a straight cylinder you should be able to just measure from the bottom with a tape measure and see if the increments were printed off by 1/2". I would bet the new one is off. ------------- Robert http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82702&KW=structures&title=structures-1964-allis-d15-series-ii" rel="nofollow - 1964 D15 Series II |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 8:17am
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the add got it WRONG... There definition of NESTING is the bucket sets 1 inch into the bucket below it... I have bought dozens of steel buckets... They do no NEST.... they STACK as jay said... Look at soup cans, beer cans, etc... as jay said, they STACK.. Plastic tapered buckets NESTS. ............ they are using the wrong word.
Go to the Farm STore or Hardware Store and tell them you want to see the 5 gal buckets of ROOFING TAR or BARN PAINT ........... they will be Stacked. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 9:08am
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Sssshhhhhh…...relax Steve. Maybe switch to decaf? Just jerkin' the proverbial chain of a very frustrating thread....You know...volume is volume, nesting is nesting, is is is.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 9:10am
What I wanna know, is how it is ALWAYS 1/2 inch off? Maybe the last 1/2 inch doesn't get emptied out?
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Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 12:18pm
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Tbone now you know what I meant about a oil thread. And I see where I got confused about your on line name.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2020 at 1:48pm
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The problem with the rain gauges is they are all BUILT IN CHINA ... They build them in centimeters, and then convert to inches.. Some say there are 2 cm per inch, some say 2.54 cm per inch. !!! ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |