Leaded Gasoline
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17124
Printed Date: 06 Feb 2025 at 12:44am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Leaded Gasoline
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Subject: Leaded Gasoline
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 9:07pm
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My WC, as long as we have had it running, has a slight miss. I changed the spark plugs and the magneto is untouched, other than cleaning the points. You would know its not the timing because it has to be in time to crank start as easily as it does. Anyway while sitting around a thought crossed my mind. Should I get a lead additive for the fuel since all the gas in 1937 was leaded? I did put a bottle of carb cleaner in it that seemed to help some but the carb is new so I know its good and clean. Should I get this additive? Will it help stop this miss?
Thanks,
Jeremy (AllisChalmers37) ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Replies:
Posted By: wkpoor
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 9:18pm
| I don't think lead is necessary for any old tractors for a number of reasons. Your miss is most likely either secondary ignition problem (like plug wires ,plugs, cap ect.) or valve problem such as miss adjusted tappet broken valve spring or low compression cylinder. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2010 at 11:15pm
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Gas wasn't necessarily leaded in 1938, that was a war time innovation. Lead additive will add to the problems by fouling spark plugs. Be sure to use something for plugs other than Champion plugs because the ceramic in Champion plugs doesn't clean after a smoky start. Easy cranking says retarded spark which is normal for the magneto. Be sure its advance for running because retarded spark is not what it takes to make power. Be sure to have metal, not carbon plug wires that make good connections at both ends. Carbon wires break and also reduce the spark intensity and are not good for the magneto ignition, or any tractor ignition. Then have you tune that new carburetor? Only the latest versions of carburetors come factory tuned, all others need tuning to match the engine and the fuel. The settings in the book are just close enough to get it to run so you can finesse it later. Gerald J. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:59am
What a city man can learn from a farmer: http://books.google.com/books?id=xUEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=tractor+leaded+gasoline&source=bl&ots=My-L7kZGjY&sig=gD2xmLNlewBBLF5GpoYCNu5k9ME&hl=en&ei=9w11TJ3kJ4-nnQe-hvCxBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=tractor%20leaded%20gasoline&f=false - http://books.google.com/books?id=xUEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PP2&lpg=PP2&dq=tractor+leaded+gasoline&source=bl&ots=My-L7kZGjY&sig=gD2xmLNlewBBLF5GpoYCNu5k9ME&hl=en&ei=9w11TJ3kJ4-nnQe-hvCxBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=tractor%20leaded%20gasoline&f=false |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 8:11am
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If its been run several years with the oem exhaust seats on unleaded fuel . Its quiet possible that the seats are beat out and it should have a noticeable popping sound in the exhaust . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 11:28am
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mlpankey wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 1:55pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 2:59pm
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Hi Jeremy- "Should I get a lead additive for the fuel since all the gas in 1937 was leaded?" This is a misnomer at least, and much closer to an outright falsehood. From a farm and road fuel industry standpoint, practically NONE of the gasoline in 1937 had Tetraethyl Lead additives. Considering using it to 'help protect' valve seats in ANY domestic engine manufactured prior to the end of WW2 is pointless- with exception of very few manufacturers, all industrial and agricultural engines were low compression, with hardened valve seats, intended to run well on a variety of different fuels (not only liquid, but also gaseous NG and LP with no long-term wear effects. Pull out a valve seat, break it, and apply a Rockwell hardness tester, and you'll find that the original seats are RC40 or harder, and the valve faces are right up there. The '37 WC I just pulled apart (and I believe it to be the original head) tested RC51, so WAY harder than required for non-TEL use. After TEL was heavily advertised into the environment (like California/EPA did with MBTE in the early '80s'), manufacturers of non-industrial gasoline engines (car manufacturers) went to softer iron seat materials (cost savings) because they COULD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead Now, this in mind, that doesn't discount that there could be SOME OTHER failure. If it's missing on ONE cylinder, then you don't have a fuel-type problem, you have a ONE_CYLINDER type problem... could be: That cylinder has a sparkplug problem (switch plugs around, see if it follows) That cylinder has a gasket or ring-type problem... That magneto has some sort of problem with THAT plug tower That cylinder may have a valve with insufficient lash (pop the lid and check it, when in doubt, give it a little more slack) That cylinder may have a lazy valve spring or cruddy valve guide That cylinder may have a CRACKED or loose valve seat That INTAKE or Exhaust port may be making a poor seal, and once running, thermal expansion exacerbates the situation, causing it to run lean and miss. I'd say, investigate these other possibilities instead, and you'll probably find the problem. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 3:04pm
Can I get an Amen? AMEN! |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 3:54pm
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Dave did a real good job explaining. T.E.L. not only raised octane, but it also works like the stuff called PAM that you spray on a skillet to keep your food from sticking. The seats erode when they start to glow red under heavy load. The lead prevents the transfer of material between the valve and seat. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: wkpoor
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 5:30pm
Thanks Dave, I didn't want to type all them there words so I abbreviated in an ealier post:
I don't think lead is necessary for any old tractors for a number of reasons. Your miss is most likely either secondary ignition problem (like plug wires ,plugs, cap ect.) or valve problem such as miss adjusted tappet broken valve spring or low compression cylinder.
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Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 5:57pm
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Sorry, just a stupid thought. I will try all of the suggestions though and hope for the best. I guess a tiny miss isn't bad if it hasn't ran in 5 years. Im just picky when it comes to something like that.
Thanks, Jeremy ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: jrjuday
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 7:18pm
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Find a spot that gets nice and dark at night, start the engine and watch the sparkplugs and wires for arcing. If there is no arcing, speed the engine up to 1/2 throttle and check again. |
Posted By: wkpoor
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 9:59pm
Another thing I've done with autos is to spray down the wires and cap with water while its running. If it starts stumbling you'll know.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 10:23pm
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wkpoor, I was just about to suggest just that but the Pastor and his wife pulled into the drive for a quick visit and 2 1/2 hours later they just left. We had a real good visit and he even spotted my WD45 and called it by it's model and could distinguish between that and a WD. I think I'm gonna join that church! ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 6:48am
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I have never seen a exhaust seat that wasnt in need of changing after 20 years of service let alone 50 years wither it was ran on moonshine or leaded gas . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 11:04pm
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I've found darned few that needed much more than a light grinding of both the seat and the valve... most times, 20-seconds with a lapping cup takes care of it... but keep in mind that an engine with 20 years of service doesn't necessarily identify it to a particular decade. Most Industrial and agricultural engines built between the mid '20's and late '50's had some pretty well made seats and valves. Knocking out seats, guides, installing new seats, guides, and valves, and lapping 'em to proper fitment is ALWAYS a reasonable thing to do, but I've not yet found an AC engine where the seats were eroded or hammered into the head, and the valves have all been exceptional... matter of fact, my valve grinder has NEVER had the opportunity to recut an Allis valve. These engines, in stock form, run a very low BMEP, very conservative timing, and low CR, so burning up valves and seats really gets left to having improper lash. I think Jeremy's problem will probably turn out to either be electrical or plug related, a vacuum leak at the intake or exhaust, a valve that needs a smidgen more clearance, or a head gasket weeping coolant into the chamber... but clearly the suggestion of using lead additives to resolve a one-cylinder warm-engine miss is logically not addressing the real problem. |
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2010 at 8:20pm
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Well today something a little weird happened. I took the WC up and down the 1/4 mile driveway today because I think it's relaxing and very cool. But anyway when I went to park it in the barn I noticed it ran a little different. So while it was running, and parked, I got off of her and walked around to the exhaust manifold and to my amazment a big blue flame shot out of the manifold and it would do this almost every 10 seconds. does anyone know what would cause that? ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: firebrick43
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 11:32am
| where at on the manifold, is your manifold leaking/cracked/warped? Or do you mean the muffler. Either way it do to fuel burning outside of the combustion chamber which could be an ignition/timing problem or even a carb problem. Lots of what ifs without seeing it. |
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 12:11pm
It comes out of the hole where the muffler pipe goes. It's a new carb so I hope it isn't bad. The timing can't be off too bad either because it is still real easy to crank start. ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 12:39pm
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I have farmed a lot of hours with unleaded gas. Plowing, fitting ground, planting and harvesting and have not had a gas related problem. Blaming your problems on unleaded gas is a myth based on other people unfounded opinions. When they started to dump unleaded gas in my under ground tank at the farm the gas man told me to add a quart of diesel to each tank to keep from having valve problems. I did for a while and then didn't bother. No valve problems ever came up.
It is very possible that if you do a valve job on the head that you will find large deposits of carbon that can restrict the fuel flow even if the valves are seating which can cause uneven sounds from the exhaust without an actual miss.
Blue flame or any flame from an exhaust is cause by unburned gas that is heat ignited in the manifold. That will also cause a backfire when quickly throttling back.
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Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 12:57pm
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my 37 had sat for a long time when I got it and the valves were not seating. They were pretty worn but I cleaned em up and got them to seal. Probably would not be good if I pulled it hard but OK for what I do. I had angle boot plug wires on and could not get them to stop jumping spark to the block. I could see them at night and sometimes it was only hitting on two cylinders. Put straight wire on and that went away. If the new gas sits in the carb for a few weeks the tractor seems to be hard to start. Once it runs the stale gas out it seems fine. My 51B has much higher compression and seems to be even more prone to balk at 'old gas'. I have also noted the 37 starts best when you let it run for a while after the gas is shut off and drain the carb a bit. If it starts then I leave it on choke for quite a while before I turn the choke completely off. The colder the weather the longer it wants to run on choke but it wants to start on full choke on even the hottest days. Sometimes a hot restart is a devil on both the old tractors, not sure why. Just letting them sit for about 10 minutes and trying again usually works best, they seem to know when I am in a hurry. ------------- 1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 1:52am
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You MAY have a slight crack or hole in the manifold that is allowing a little 'pass-through' when the manifold gets at just-the-right temperature. A close visual MAY indicate an internal crack... if you see one, or see a situation where the gasket surfaces aren't making good contact, change the manifold. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 12:39pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 7:05pm
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Pank, re-read his first post: "since all the fuel in 1937 was leaded" This is NOT true. Very little, in fact, was. Yes, GM/Kettering Labs ("ETHYL") wanted everyone to think otherwise. Matter of fact, they tried REALLY HARD to downplay the "LEAD" concept by using the ETHYL trade-name... (tetraethyl lead). Conspiracy? Of course, but that is pronounced in a business-environment as "MARKETING". Next, re-read what he's ASKING, and look at the SYMPTOM: Miss on one cylinder. Do you REALLY think that including additives in fuel is going to solve a problem? No. He may have a cracked valve seat, or may have one needing lapping, but that wasn't his question- it was "should I add lead". Answer is NO. It appears, however, that it stops missing under load... so this isn't a fuel-quality symptom. Furthermore, if he was having a recessed or damaged valve seat issue, it certainly wouldn't clear up under a change of load... it would burn up, and get worse. Before condemning the valves and seats, do proper troubleshooting via empirical testing. Here's some simple hints: --If one suspects a compression problem, 10 minutes with a leakdown tester will prove it out. --If one suspects a leaky manifold, wave an unlit propane torch around the manifold gaskets and castings. If the engine speed changes, you have a vacuum leak. If the torch lights, you have an exhaust leak. Fix it. --Prove that your ignition system is operating properly. If you don't have a viscious blue spark at the plug when the impulser clacks, take the mag to someone who's really good at mags, to be cleaned out, lubricated, and tested. It's certainly worth the effort. --Prove that the head gasket isn't leaking... look for bubbles in the radiator, look for bubbles and weeping around the head, look for signs of coolant in the oil. --Prove that the engine isn't suffering from a very worn bore... smoke out the stack, or raining oil is substantial indicator. --Prove that the plugs aren't fouling... once it misses, kill the engine, pull the plugs, and take a look. Look up spark-plug color examples, and see if you have appropriate color on the electrodes and insulator. Make sure you have proper heat-range for the application. IF ONE plug appears to be having problems, swap plugs to different cylinders. If problem follows plug, replace the plug... if problem doesn't, problem isn't the plug... could be wires, caps, magneto, or fuel/air mixture. --If the miss clears up when you pull the choke out a smidgen, pull, dismantle, soak, and clean out the carb, reassemble with new gaskets. While you're at it, yank the fuel tank and fuel line, clean 'me both out good, and refill it with fresh gasoline. |
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 7:31pm
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You just love to rub it in don't ya? LOL!
But I've changed the head gasket twice. Once because we put it on wrong. But it is fine. The carb is brand new out of the box. Now it dont smoke or as you put it "rain oil." I put new Autolite 295 plugs on it and made sure they were gapped right. As money and time becomes avalible I will change the plug wires and take a look at those seats, at the expense of a third head gasket. While I'm at it I will be taking the fuel line off and cleaning the tank and putting a screen on the sediment bowl. It now has a piece of junk in the fuel system that gets sucked into the hole into the sediment bowl and causes it to run like pure crap. So that also might have a little to do with it.
It runs wonderfully, I've worked with it and opened it up several times. I mean the poor thing had sat for so long that the wheels were gone. It was amazing that we got it running in just one afternoon.
I'll leave it alone until after the Renfro Valley show and the machinery show at school. I think I've got the title of oldest tractor and only Allis-Chalmers at school locked up. ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 8:39pm
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Did you TUNE that new carburetor? Carburetors of that vintage were NOT factory tuned, they have to be adjusted on the tractor and with the fuel you plan to use. There is no compensation for different fuel either. E10 tunes differently than straight unleaded. Gerald J. |