Allis Chalmers 301 injectors
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=168499
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Topic: Allis Chalmers 301 injectors
Posted By: PA185
Subject: Allis Chalmers 301 injectors
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2020 at 12:22am
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I have a 2800 series 301 I’m building in a 185 for a non turbo puller, I’m having the injection pump worked up and swapping in a steel flywheel for the extra RPM. One thing I have to figure out yet is injectors. What psi should they be set to on a stand? Keeping in mind it’s a strict puller and the fueling is being increased a good bit.
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Replies:
Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2020 at 4:56am
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The pump guy should Match them to your pump
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2020 at 7:03am
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I think the pop pressure is close to stock , and use 7080 tips or bigger will help, some injectors can be lasered out in the fuel holding section to hold more to pop in the cylinder
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Posted By: PA185
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2020 at 12:45pm
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What is the stock pop psi?
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2020 at 8:25pm
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You are entering an area where few have gone before. Most 301 diesel tractor pullers are using turbochargers, sometimes three of them, and not naturally aspirated. You will easily reach a point of a huge amount of SMOKE and no HP gain. In fact, if you overfuel it too much you will lose HP. I can't see ever reaching 100 HP. I'm thinking 85 HP may be about the end of the road. If I was starting a project like this, I guess I'd try a set of 7080 nozzle tips set at about 3,000 psi. If they are new, they will have a nice crisp spray pattern. I'm afraid any larger than 7080 tips and it won't run well...just smoke. What's with the steel flywheel ?? They are not cheap and anywhere I pull if the RPM's are under 3,000 RPM's, there's no problem with safety or the insurance company covering the event.
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Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2020 at 11:24pm
Heed what the good doc sez, I say that a lot... we did this back in the 70's in farm stock pulling. There are 3 AC inj tips - the 180 xx218 the 190 x044 and the 903? tips (last 3 part digits w/o looking then up. However I would take a different route - I would go with the late BOSH injectors. You are going to have to atomize the fuel as much as possible because you will suffer from lack of O2 to burn it. AS your rpm drops , so will air flow unlike a turbo engine. As your rpm drops the torque will increase but HP doesn't. At this point if you want more torque you will have to have more 'air'. This will have to be accomplished by more cubic inches , a better cam grind, porting of the head and a scavenging exhaust system . You can do thousands of dollars of work here to gain just a few horse power. There have been reports of 185's set at 100 pto hp - I have never seen it - I think Doc will agree - it ain't happening. IF I were to attack this again I would get a set of bosh injectors and lines as in a early 6080 or F3, let Ed rework the pump-match the injectors to as high pressure as possible (think bust up that fuel this thing is not turbo'd) stock pump - and get the CAM reground. You need quicker lift, more lift, a cam grinder knows this stuff when you tell him your use. Cut the parasitic loss - water pump hyd pump just use a single gear pump for ps and pd and do some mild head porting . Then do some dyno testing as to fuel pump timing with some cetane (sp?) booster. Anyway to get more O2 into the intake the more hp as the rules allow hint hint...
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Posted By: PA185
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 5:12am
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Spoke with Ed about doing my pump and injectors. To my surprise he says he’s done a good bit of them for non turbo application. Claims he can get some good power with the right set up. He seems to really know his stuff. I post on here time to time about this build as I progress thru it. Farmstock doesn’t let us have a turbo around here. Only the heavy stuff, 12.5k and up. That’s all pulls within 3 hours distance except 3-4 places which run once a year. I’m going with the steel flywheel and setting the rpm to 3300. On 18.4 38’s it should get me to around 6mph in first gear which is the pace for farmstock around here
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 6:43am
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The Bosch brand injectors would be the best choice, agreed. On the late great 8000 series, their pressures were set up as high as 4300 psi. I don't think the baby RoosaMaster would like that number....3300 is better. This would be a great place to experiment with my under the hood 4bbl Holley carb dialed in to use methanol. I have felt that this would vaporize in the airstream enough to allow a good burn when the diesel fuel starts the fire. I know spraying methanol into the airstream doesn't work on NA engines like it does on turbo engines.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 6:58am
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The high side of low gear at 3300 RPM is only 4.52 MPH with 18.4 x 38 tires on a 180 or 185 with the "slow" low gear. With the old/faster low gear the speed becomes 5.54 MPH. When you shift up into low side of second gear it is 7.2 MPH.
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Posted By: PA185
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 7:39am
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Right now on 18.4 28’s it’s around 2.9 mph according to a speed board. Way too slow. Pulls great but never gets to use any power. 3/4 of the track then blow the tires off. I’ll have to look into those late style injectors. 3300 psi sounds like a go then
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Posted By: PA185
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 7:40am
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Still use the 7080 tips on the injectors? I had talked to Ed about a 4 hole nozzle and he said it’s not needed.
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Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 10:22am
we know for a fact that the set up with the bosch nozzels results in more economy, torque, and better starting. Doc has an intriguing ideal of putting a non restrictive large 4bbl carb on top of the intake running methanol - pluses are a cooling effect on the air stream, extra slow burning fuel over what diesel is supplied - a dyno and some work would be a fun ideal to experiment with. Pullers in the 70's used propane or other gaseous fuel - even O2 in the intake before it was ruled out. There were some pretty good rumors of hidden nitrous oxide supplies that would be unleashed at the end of the run that gave one a sudden push from us bush pullers to the big boys.... btw we ran 18.4 -30 that held 3th gear sometimes 4th (2nd high) in the 7000 # class with just a turned up pump - and 4th gear after some engine work - cam, 190 injectors. 9000# class 3d gear even with 23.1x26 a size that was std and allowed.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 10:54am
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7080 tips are for AC injector bodies, not Bosch.
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Posted By: PA185
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 11:01am
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So the Bosch uses its own nozzle I assume
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Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 12:11pm
At the power level you're at, or needing, I'd personally stay with the AC holders. Going to Bosch injectors will be an expensive ordeal. My opinion in the biggest gain from them is going to a 5 hole tip, which requires quite a bit of custom work, and a new set of lines. Sounds like you currently have plenty of power.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Posted By: PA185
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2020 at 2:15pm
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Ed, it has great power. The engine is 300 hours off a fresh overhaul so it’s healthy. I spoke to you about a month ago about it. For sure need to feed it some more fuel though, the pump is turned up and it doesn’t even haze out the exhaust. I am gonna build a custom intake set up and an ice box for it. Won’t be like a turbo but I’m gonna do all I can to eliminate restrictions and feed it all the air I can.
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 3:12pm
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Seen your post on FB about head work on that 301, I wouldn't spend the money to put 426 valves in ,, a lot of $$$ for little return, just my opinioin
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Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 4:08pm
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not really. If your going to get rid of the seats so they don’t fall out might as well fill it with a bigger valve 2 birds with one stone. Don’t think it’s necessary is all situations
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