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6 volt to 12 volt conversion om Allis Chalmers C

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Topic: 6 volt to 12 volt conversion om Allis Chalmers C
Posted By: kujo
Subject: 6 volt to 12 volt conversion om Allis Chalmers C
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2020 at 8:26pm
when doing the conversion is it best to use a one wire alternator or a two wire because i have had trouble with amp meter showing a negative discharge and the tractor dies. Any help would greatly be appreciated i would like to talk to someone with experience in this matter. I'm in treynor Iowa 402-203-4171 Thanks



Replies:
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2020 at 8:59am
Its always easier on the engine especially if you go to the three wire setup. Most one wire Alternators need 1200-1400 rpm in order to "excite" the regulator in a one wire to start the changing process. With a three wire setup, 400-450 rpm is all you need and the Alt is already charging.  No revving of the engine. Your engine will be happy.

We offer complete 6-12V conversion kits if interested. Also, Alternator bracket kits. Visit our website. There's a lot of information there on 12V conversions and the do's and don't with running electrical. Its always safer to run a Voltmeter when using and Alternator.  An Ammeter is a flow meter and needs full power running through it to tell you something. A Voltmeter just splices into the system, and gives you accurate voltage outputs. Like I mentioned, a visit to our website will answer a lot of questions you may have on 12V conversions.. HTH
Steve@B&B
bb-customcircuits.com


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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: Boss Man
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2020 at 3:22pm
What Steve said


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2020 at 5:33pm
The ammeter has to be wired properly for the charging set up you have. Original would have been positive ground, and you alternator is probably negative ground, so the wires need switched around on the ammeter.
 If the alternator is actually killing the engine, something isn't hooked up right.



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http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2020 at 7:02am
Tuck,
Read your post. You're backwards. Alternator's are Neg ground.... LOL!! You know that, you just typed it wrong...  LOL!  We're gettin' old buddy!
Steve@B&B


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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Steve in NJ Steve in NJ wrote:

Tuck,
Read your post. You're backwards. Alternator's are Neg ground.... LOL!! You know that, you just typed it wrong...  LOL!  We're gettin' old buddy!
Steve@B&B

 Steve, evidently when you're half dyslexic, ya don't see those mistakes, even if you proof read it  Wink
 I fixed it though.


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http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: Stan R
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 4:34pm
I converted our D17 IV from 12V positive ground to negative ground using Steve's alternator conversion kit last year and the tractor charges at the lowest idle. Maybe a bit more complicated and perhaps more money, but I'd go the three wire mode.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2020 at 9:04pm
re:... Alternator's are Neg ground.

MOST, not all Alternators are negative ground. You can buy ($$$) +ve ones...

I used CS130 series alternators, stock pulleys, on 4 D-14s, all charge fine.... You need to 100% rewire the tractor though, otherwise the gremlins WILL come and bite yer ,um, derrier.


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 7:00am
I've built a few positive ground Alternators in my day.... 6 & 12V

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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 8:05am
I believe the C has some space restrictions. You might look for a Denso type (smaller) set up as a one wire with low RPM charging. Yes I have one on my IH Dozer. It works great. It was not cheap. about $175. But it works and is a true 1 one wire small alternator neg ground. I use a volt meter rather than a amp meter as recommended by Steve. Have done 5 tractors with the volt meters. 
I have used 3 wire on my WD series tractors, with a diode in the exciter wire. 

My 2 cents.
 Regards,
 Chris


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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 10:37am
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

rYou need to 100% rewire the tractor though, otherwise the gremlins WILL come and bite yer ,um, derrier.


  Don't say that too loud, my 45 has had a used 10Si alternator on it for 15 years or more, and it still has the original wiring(except for the hot wire to the coil, which somebody replaced at one time). I just removed the 3 way switch and put a toggle in for the lights. Maybe if I ever get around to replacing the wore out key switch, I will string some new wires Wink


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http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 10:47am
well now we all know what you'll be doing this weekend !!!LOLWink
I won't say anymore.....



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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 10:54am
LOL!!  Tuck yer' killin' me!  You are to much!  LOL   

For the C,CA and the G, kits I offer, I use the Denso Alternator and not the "SI".  I used to offer the "CS" series, but being the Denso is just a tic smaller, it gives more room on all three of those model Tractors. Especially on the little G. I wire my Denso's to 3 wire design keeping with the immediate charging process at low rpms where these Tractor engines like it. The Denso does make the kits more expensive, but makes a real nice 12V conversion kit for the guys who aren't bothered with using an Alternator rather than a Gennie.  The "CS" series Alternators are optional on the other kits I offer, like for the B, & IB.
Steve@B&B


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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: cpg
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 11:00am
I have used a Hitachi 3 wire mini alternator on several of my old tractors. Not really that hard to wire and I do like how they will excite at a low rpm. I also have always gone to a voltmeter that turns on with the ignition rather than staying with the ammeter. Have one on my Allis WD and it works great for running better lights and starting in cold temps for blowing snow.


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Steve in NJ Steve in NJ wrote:

LOL!!  Tuck yer' killin' me!  You are to much!  LOL   
Steve@B&B

 Well, I had this alternator given to me, when a guy scraped out an old rusted out Chebby Blazer. Since I had no idea if it was going to work, I wasn't going to spend my time or money putting a new harness on it. It's too crusty looking for that anyway Wink
 It's just one of those things that never broke, so why fix it Sleepy


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http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 2:55pm
Anyone have a wiring diagram for a 3 wire alternator for a tractor.

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CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914


Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 10:17pm
do not use a one wire alternator you wil hate it,, go with the thre wire setup  and personaly i would replace the amp meter with a voltmeter the only thing you needto see is your volts if it isnt charging you wount have volts  ,also ampmeter would have to be a 60 amp rated at the min. its not any harder to wire a 3 wire one and you will not have the smallest pulley you can find and have to get it to full throtle every time you start it excite 


Posted By: levipatch
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 7:25am
For what its worth , I bought a mini alt. for 35 $ (NEW ) from a site on here, put it on a series 4   17 D with one wire thru the amp gauge. It charges  before the starter even winds down. Show s amps , works perfect.  Cant believe all the issues I see on here about how many wires you need. I do have batt disconnect when tractor not used. Can leave it on with no problems if I want.....  SO.......

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Billy..Big cam 300, bcam 400,,941 CAT.,,Deere excavator..900 row crop.. 66 D 17 diesel IV... 985 Pratt and Whitney..4360 Pratt and Whitney... gitten tired !


Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 7:30am
Most conversions I've seen done recommend the Delco 10SI.  I have yet to figure out if that's a 3 or 1.  I've also seen them done with and without a diode, resistor, or bulb of some kind tied into the charge wire.  Someone should do a "once and for all time" wiring diagram and put it in the knowledge base.
AaronSEIA


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 7:36am
10SI is OLD and BIG and 3 wire...low amps
CS130 is newer and smaller and 3 wire...high amps

I get CS130s for free from scrapped cars, 3 D-14s with them, zero problems. I have 'idiot' light on one, a resistor on another and 3rd is 'one wire' setup...oh yeah, they all have different mtg brkts !!!


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: cpg
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 8:25am
Here is the wiring diagram I have used on all my tractors with distributors and a 3 wire Hitachi 14231 mini alternator. So far have installed one on my Allis WD, a Farmall H, and a Ferguson TO-20 and they work great.


Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 9:02am
Originally posted by levipatch levipatch wrote:

For what its worth , I bought a mini alt. for 35 $ (NEW ) from a site on here, put it on a series 4   17 D with one wire thru the amp gauge. It charges  before the starter even winds down. Show s amps , works perfect.  Cant believe all the issues I see on here about how many wires you need. I do have batt disconnect when tractor not used. Can leave it on with no problems if I want.....  SO.......

Same here. Fit in with no issues and minimum changes


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Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD


Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 9:12am
What part number for alternator?

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CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914


Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Ted in NE-OH Ted in NE-OH wrote:

What part number for alternator?
This is what I purchased.
https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/chevy-mini-alternator-denso-street-rod-race-1-wire-12180.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.dbelectrical.com/products/chevy-mini-alternator-denso-street-rod-race-1-wire-12180.html

Can't go wrong with the others noted earlier in the thread as they give you full support


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Charlie

'48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 10:02am
FYI...from the spec sheet , pulley is 2.7" in diameter...
I'm thinking stock genny is 3.5, so it'll spin faster which is good.


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: levipatch
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 11:03am
New for Alternator Chevy Mini SBC BBC 1-WIRE 35 AMP 1-2119-11NDSE 12180-SEN
New for Alternator Chevy Mini SBC BBC 1-WIRE 35 AMP 1-2119-11NDSE 12180-SEN
Seller :
https://www.ebay.com/usr/city-green?_trksid=p2047675.l2559" rel="nofollow - - ( http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=city-green&iid=312785570461&ssPageName=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2560" rel="nofollow - https://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=city-green" rel="nofollow">About city-green
97.4% Positive feedback
Save this Seller         Don't know if I did this rite, But I stand corrected,,, Price is 38$
https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowSellerFAQ&iid=312785570461&requested=city-green&redirect=0&frm=284&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l1499&ssPageName=PageSellerM2MFAQ_VI" rel="nofollow - -   


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Billy..Big cam 300, bcam 400,,941 CAT.,,Deere excavator..900 row crop.. 66 D 17 diesel IV... 985 Pratt and Whitney..4360 Pratt and Whitney... gitten tired !


Posted By: levipatch
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 11:14am
City Green  alt. on E bay... This is whar its at. Maybe you can find it.... I don't know bout this puter anymore. Im out dated    .

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Billy..Big cam 300, bcam 400,,941 CAT.,,Deere excavator..900 row crop.. 66 D 17 diesel IV... 985 Pratt and Whitney..4360 Pratt and Whitney... gitten tired !


Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 3:13pm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-for-Alternator-Chevy-Mini-SBC-BBC-1-WIRE-35-AMP-1-2119-11NDSE-12180-SEN/312785570461?hash=item48d3790a9d:g:PbwAAOSw74ReGHV5" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-for-Alternator-Chevy-Mini-SBC-BBC-1-WIRE-35-AMP-1-2119-11NDSE-12180-SEN/312785570461?hash=item48d3790a9d:g:PbwAAOSw74ReGHV5

Is this a smaller version of a 10SI?  Wired the same anyway?
AaronSEIA


Posted By: Luke114
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 4:10pm
I've been looking at those mini Denso alternators and they look like a great fit.  I'm a little confused reading reviews on them in various places, with some buyers saying they are definitely not a one wire alternator and other saying yes.  They clearly have a couple extra terminals there, and the warning light circuit makes sense.  But why the other ignition circuit terminal?  Is it needed?


Posted By: levipatch
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 4:37pm
Works with one wire period, don't even look at the plug........ This is self regulated works great.......Why pay all that money, all that work, all that wiring,,for what??????????? You could buy one a year for 38 $ and still save money, just saying.....Mines got 50 hours and alls well   !

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Billy..Big cam 300, bcam 400,,941 CAT.,,Deere excavator..900 row crop.. 66 D 17 diesel IV... 985 Pratt and Whitney..4360 Pratt and Whitney... gitten tired !


Posted By: C in Concord
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 9:35pm
I agree on the 1-wire mini (denso) alternator for ~$40. I put one on my C as part of a 12v conversion and it's been working well for going on a year now. Fits nice too, fully covered by the hood. Only used the post, ignored the other terminals. Pulley is ~3", maybe a 1/4" smaller than the generator pulley. Plowed the driveway at 3 deg. F yesterday.



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Leave things better than you found them.

1941 Model C (restored 2020)


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 11:42pm
All what wiring?? There's two more wires to hook up on a three wire system.  I'm not condemning one wire systems. I explained this numerous times in the past here. If you own a B or C Tractor that's equipped with a Mag and a Starter, then the one wire will work fine. When you have a Tractor with more accessories like, Battery ignition (Distributor) Headllights, work lamps, etc. the one wire ain't gonna cut it.  Without the VR being wired into the system, the Alternator is just going to charge the Battery at a certain amperage. Let me explain. When you have other accessories pulling on the Battery, the Battery eventually starts to run down because it can't keep enough power in it to keep the accessories happy and stay fully charged at the same time. Here's where the problems start with the one wires. Enter the three wire. With the Voltage Regulator now wired into the system and monitering current usage, when other accessories are being used, the VR senses current usage and ramps the Alternator up to compensate for that usage. This way, everything on board the Tractor is getting full voltage and the Battery is staying full also. This is where the 3 wire system has the advantage. The more accessories (or current) that is used while the Tractor is working, the Alternator satisfies the system (especially the Battery) in keeping everything working at peak voltage. That same Denso used as a one wire on a "D" series Tractor can be a real work out for that Alternator. The higher "D" series Tractors have a lot going on at the dash with gauges, work lamps etc. and is using a lot of current from just the Battery. Now, during the day, if a lot of those accessories like Headlights, tailights, flashers, etc aren't being used, the Alternator can usually keep the Battery reserve up.  Some of you guys may not have a problem and say "it works fine for me". But, take a senario where you get a Winter storm and you're working to clear the driveway and around the barns at night and you need all the lights and crap working, you're gonna have a problem cause the Battery having all those parisites suckin' on it is eventually going to go down, so now your loosing current flow to the ignition, your lamps, gauges and anything else you need current for. The engine is going to go down on power, and Heaven forbid you have Statium lights and a heater or A/C in the cab! With the three wire system, the VR is doing its job compensting for all those draws on the system, and the Alternator can stay with all those draws and keep the Battery reserve at peak.  When I design one my systems for a large "D" series Tractor, or larger, I always send the voltage sense wire (part of the 3 wire system) up parallel with the heavy output circuit and junction the two together at the Voltmeter plus (+) side in the dash where its busy. This allows the VR to monitor current usage at one of the busiest points on the Tractor and keeps everything up to peak. Trust me, I've been building and designing wiring systems on race cars, streetrods, all kinds of vehicles including Tractors for darn near 50 years.  What you want is SAFETY and RELIABILITY under all conditions.    HTH
Steve@B&B


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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: JW in MO
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 8:16am
Originally posted by Steve in NJ Steve in NJ wrote:

All what wiring?? There's two more wires to hook up on a three wire system.  I'm not condemning one wire systems. I explained this numerous times in the past here. If you own a B or C Tractor that's equipped with a Mag and a Starter, then the one wire will work fine. When you have a Tractor with more accessories like, Battery ignition (Distributor) Headllights, work lamps, etc. the one wire ain't gonna cut it.  Without the VR being wired into the system, the Alternator is just going to charge the Battery at a certain amperage. Let me explain. When you have other accessories pulling on the Battery, the Battery eventually starts to run down because it can't keep enough power in it to keep the accessories happy and stay fully charged at the same time. Here's where the problems start with the one wires. Enter the three wire. With the Voltage Regulator now wired into the system and monitering current usage, when other accessories are being used, the VR senses current usage and ramps the Alternator up to compensate for that usage. This way, everything on board the Tractor is getting full voltage and the Battery is staying full also. This is where the 3 wire system has the advantage. The more accessories (or current) that is used while the Tractor is working, the Alternator satisfies the system (especially the Battery) in keeping everything working at peak voltage. That same Denso used as a one wire on a "D" series Tractor can be a real work out for that Alternator. The higher "D" series Tractors have a lot going on at the dash with gauges, work lamps etc. and is using a lot of current from just the Battery. Now, during the day, if a lot of those accessories like Headlights, tailights, flashers, etc aren't being used, the Alternator can usually keep the Battery reserve up.  Some of you guys may not have a problem and say "it works fine for me". But, take a senario where you get a Winter storm and you're working to clear the driveway and around the barns at night and you need all the lights and crap working, you're gonna have a problem cause the Battery having all those parisites suckin' on it is eventually going to go down, so now your loosing current flow to the ignition, your lamps, gauges and anything else you need current for. The engine is going to go down on power, and Heaven forbid you have Statium lights and a heater or A/C in the cab! With the three wire system, the VR is doing its job compensting for all those draws on the system, and the Alternator can stay with all those draws and keep the Battery reserve at peak.  When I design one my systems for a large "D" series Tractor, or larger, I always send the voltage sense wire (part of the 3 wire system) up parallel with the heavy output circuit and junction the two together at the Voltmeter plus (+) side in the dash where its busy. This allows the VR to monitor current usage at one of the busiest points on the Tractor and keeps everything up to peak. Trust me, I've been building and designing wiring systems on race cars, streetrods, all kinds of vehicles including Tractors for darn near 50 years.  What you want is SAFETY and RELIABILITY under all conditions.    HTH
Steve@B&B

That right there is valuable and FREE informaion.  Thank you for explaining it.


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Maximum use of available resources!


Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 3:59pm
Folks,
 I like Steves write up. On my WZ which only has battery and lights for ocasional use I used the Denso 1 wire. On my WD45 I used the larger alternator 3 wire.  I have followed Steve's lead and have had no issues.
The WZ one wire:


The WD45 three wire:


Dash that I typically set up, not factory:


I have a wiring diagram I use if needed I can post that too. Just trying to help.
This is custom wiring. Not extremely difficult but, its not the way they came from the Allis plant!:) This is my version/ sketch of the WD series wiring with a 3 wire alternator.
 Regards,
 Chris





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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.


Posted By: wbecker
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 5:28pm
I bought a mini 1 wire from a automotive hot rod site. Works great, charges instantly at low rpm.




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Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152


Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 6:36pm
Hey, Chris...I love the diagram.  Helps a bunch.  I see you threw a diode in there.  I've also seen a small incandescent light or a resistor used where you have the diode.  Does it matter which one gets used?
AaronSEIA


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 7:20pm
i use a 10 ohm, 10 watt resistor with a SI10 alternator and a 10 ohm, 100 watt resistor with the CS130 ( smaller GM) in place of the diode... Basically the same result.. Resistor is 1/4 inch square and about 1.5 inch long .... I normally anchor a terminal block under the gas tank and screw the  resistor leads down instead of making spade terminals on them

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Like them all, but love the "B"s.


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 8:13pm
The purpose of the resistor, lamp, or diode in the three wire alternator connection on the exciting wire is important. That circuit is usually supplied by the gas engine ignition circuit / switch. Without the diode, lamp, or resistor turning the ignition switch off takes away battery power but the alternator will back feed enough power through that wire to supply ignition for the engine so it won't stop from turning the key off. The diode, resistor, or lamp cuts the power to the ignition circuit enough the engine will quit running with the alternator connected that way and the key turned off.

Gerald J.


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2020 at 8:25pm
I know Steve prefers the voltmeter. It sure is a lot easier to wire, but in my experience fails to give thorough charging system indication. When the voltmeter is connected somewhere in the battery circuits in the tractor it indicates a voltage higher than the voltage at the battery because of voltage drop in the multi amps charging circuit. And it indicates that the battery would be being charged IF the battery is connected. Remember that the battery posts need to be cleaned twice a year in a 6 volt system because they tend to corrode and the 6 volt system can't overcome the resistance of the corrosion. They need cleaning every other year in a 12 volt system.

I had a VW Beetle in the late 60s that had a lab quality voltmeter and an ammeter that I had added. The ammeter showed lack of battery charging at low engine speeds while the voltmeter showed adequate voltage.

I prefer the ammeter and it has to be wired properly. For negative ground, the negative terminal should be connected directly to the battery with a wire big enough to carry the full current from the alternator or generator. Then the charging device should be connected to the positive terminal along with all the electric loads of the system.

It would work to connect the voltmeter directly to the battery except that when the tractor was parked the voltmeter would drain the battery in time. And would still not show the effects of corroded posts.

I am a retired consulting electrical engineer with lots of education, Dr. Gerald J. And I have modified the charging on my JD gas 4020 decades ago. I added an ammeter.

Gerald J.


Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 9:48am
Originally posted by AaronSEIA AaronSEIA wrote:

Hey, Chris...I love the diagram.  Helps a bunch.  I see you threw a diode in there.  I've also seen a small incandescent light or a resistor used where you have the diode.  Does it matter which one gets used?
AaronSEIA

Aaron,
Thanks, Steve  B&B helped me with this.
 As in other responses. Looks like either/ all will work. I like the diode for a couple reasons.
1. it fits right in the wire and it is never seen (small less than 1/8 dia).
2. it costs less than a buck
3. no extra mounting or connections required.
Make sure the band (marking on the diode) is towards the alternator.
I solder mine into the wire. Then put heat shrink over it and the connections for protection.
Regards,
 Chris


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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.


Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 9:54am
Originally posted by wbecker wbecker wrote:

I bought a mini 1 wire from a automotive hot rod site. Works great, charges instantly at low rpm.








wbecker, That is a very detailed B! The alternator looks great. I believe on a C or CA there is a steering rod pretty close to the sheet metal in this same area. So the smaller Denso would be perfect.
As mentioned I am not sure all these Denso type are created equal? I have one that charges at low rpm and one that does not.
Regards,
 Chris


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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 2:16pm
gee, do those 'showroom condition' tractors ever see the fields ?? Look to purdy....please ,toss some mud on PDQ !

as for the ammeter vs voltmeter hookup...yeesh they both take 2 wires, so no more aggrevation, it ain't 'rocket science'.
I know 'it's a 'ford vs chevy deal but one has to understand that a voltmeter will never tell you the condition of a battery, just the very,very lightly loaded voltage. An ammeter shows you which way the electrons are flowing and how many are going there.

voltmeters became the 'standard' when higher current demands for vehicles arose. It's far cheaper to make a 'universal' voltmeter than to have a huge assortment of wiring and ammeters needed for the assembly line.


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: wbecker
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 3:12pm
Jayb, that was when I just finished building this Lowered B with the 6' woods under it, it has been my main mower for several years now so it doesn't look quite so purdy now, it's a working tractor.

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Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 4:28pm
As I said many times, most people don't care what's going in and out of the Battery, all they want to know is if  its charging. That's it. All the other stiff with direction and condition of Battery doesn't mean a thing to regular folks. Its important to you engineer types. I'll be the first to admit, I'm not an engineer, I'm a field guy. My draw tester tells me what condition the Battery is in. When I build my wiring systems, (doesn't matter what its for) I keep them simple and safe. Jay's correct about the higher demands of power needed in today's Automobiles and the use of a Voltmeter, but Ammeters were much more dangerous in Automobiles years ago mainly because if a vehicle got into a head on collision or impact to the front of the vehicle to where the main power circuit running into the cabin to supply power inside the vehicle got smashed or crushed in the metal, this caused a dead short and fires would start inside the cabin of the vehicles equipped with Ammeters and set the dashboard insulation a blazin'. I've seen many a vehicle over my 50 years of being a gas/diesel mechanic working on vehicles where the dashboards or complete interiors caught fire. That Battery will supply every bit of amerage it has in it till its dead. And all the while its feeding fuel (current) to the fire....
Steve@B&B
BTW, Bill that little lowered B is awesome!!   Thumbs Up


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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 4:52pm
Now we're getting in the weeds, but...if an ammeter and volt meter both are wired identical, why will the ammeter discharge the battery if destroyed in a wreck and the voltmeter not?  Assuming the worst doesn't happen, why not just flip the wires on the ammeter for - ground and be done with it?
AaronSEIA


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2020 at 5:14pm
'historically' all the power from the battery went to an ammeter and then to a fuse and then to lights, ignition, etc. Any short At or AFTER the ammeter and before the fuse, allows ALL current( power) from the battery to go to ground. That's how fires and bad things can happen.
The safer wiring would be battery->PRIMARY FUSE-> ammeter -> rest of stuff. If you get a short at the ammeter the PRIMARY FUSE blows(opens) and no fireball.
My '97 F150 has TWO primary fuses and then 40 or 50 others afterwards.Frankly it's an insane system and Ford's not the only one doing this. I think one primary is battery to alternator, the other feeds everything else. I'd have to check the schematic.
Using a cheap generic voltmeter saves a LOT of $$ big copper wire  from battery to dash, labour to install, inventory of proper wires based on model, it gets complicated. A $5 do-all-cars voltmeter gives drivers a gauge, makes them feel happy.. I've never checked but the voltmeter might draw 1 milliamp( 1 /1000th of an amp)  to say 'green'. A basic ,old sckool100 amp ammeter,needs, well, 100 amps to make it work.....

If you're going to change from +ve gnd to -ve gnd, you just swap the connections on the ammeter. It's that simple. When you do that you really should( must) replace the OEM fibre washers with nylon ones.
Jay


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2020 at 7:00am
Jay is right on what he said on everything. Just look at an Ammeter as a flow meter. You need full power running through it to tell you something. A Voltmeter on the other hand just splices into the system and tells you what's going on. In todays brand new cars n' trucks, (Fords in particular) the computer controls the charging system now. If the Battery is "full" the computer reads that from a voltage sense circuit from the Battery. The on board computer then shuts the Alternator off. This was I think for gas mileage reasons. This could easily be read wrong by a mechanic if he or she were checking the charging system with a Volt/Ohm meter and not get a charging rate at the Battery and think the Alternator has an issue. Be careful with these new vehicles. Somethin' else to go wrong that you don't need. The Mfr's are making it tougher all the time for a person with a mechanical backround  to work on their own vehicle...  Wacko
Steve@B&B


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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2020 at 7:09am
re: The on board computer then shuts the Alternator off.
Hmm, does this setup have an electric clutch like the AC compressor ? If not, no savings cause you're still rotating a mass ( rotor ). Having the 'computer' control the alternaotr seems more complicated than just having the internal regulator do the job.
Course I always wondered why the 'regulator' is so dang complicated when a $3 'bucket reg' circuit works fine.....


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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: billyrb
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:






Chris, on the above pictures, what is #1 in each pic?




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