Print Page | Close Window

Charging system conundrum

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=166494
Printed Date: 18 Sep 2020 at 11:27am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Charging system conundrum
Posted By: truckerfarmer
Subject: Charging system conundrum
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 6:58am
OK fellas, what am I missing. Can't seem to get the charging system on my TL12 loader to charge. It uses a WD 45 engine, so same as the tractor, basic wiring system. No lights right now.
Swapped alternator, (GM 3 wire SI alternator). Had it tested before installation. All new wires and idiot light. Heavy charging wire hooked to battery side of solenoid. Terminal 1 runs through a 5 ohm resistor and led idiot light in dash, then to switch. Terminal 2 runs to battery side of solenoid. Switched to smaller pulley on alternator.
Like I said, basic system. What am I missing?


-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!



Replies:
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 7:07am
What are you basing saying it doesn't charge on? Do you have a voltmeter or ammeter? Does the idiot light stay lit or go out? Have you checked voltage across the battery posts with a voltmeter?

One thought I have is the way you describe wiring it you have bypassed the ammeter and it won't show if it is charging.


Posted By: mhankins
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 8:07am
Try hooking just a 12 volt bulb instead of the led.
 It might not be enough to excite the regulator.


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 9:20am
I use a 10 ohm 10 watt resister ........ no idiot light. If the alternator tests GOOD, then your not getting the excitation voltage to kick in right.

-------------
Trump Is Not A Lib or Conserv, He's a "Pragmatist." (someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. Has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract him or her


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 9:20am


-------------
Trump Is Not A Lib or Conserv, He's a "Pragmatist." (someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. Has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract him or her


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 10:42pm
Have that exact diagram downloaded Steve. I went with a 5 ohm resistor to get higher amperage to make sure there was enough load to trigger the alternator. Using Ohm's law, V/R=I, 12/5=2.4 amp versus 12/10=1.2 amp. No ammeter or voltmeter wired into the system as of right now. Using a multimeter only get around 11.5 volts at battery. Idiot light stays on even holding it at full throttle.
Plan to eventually replace the original ammeter in the dash, but need to find a 10 pin aviation connector to replace the factory one that won't come apart so I can take the dash off. So for now just trying get it to run so I can move snow. Don't have a shop to get it inside, so that will have to wait till spring. Plan to rewire the whole machine come next summer.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 6:01am
Use a jumper wire from the battery terminal on the alternator to the #1 terminal and see if it charges. From your description I understand the resistor, idiot lamp, and all the wire between the switch and alternator are all new, is that correct?


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 6:37am
The idiot light staying on says the alternator is not supplying more volts than the battery.


-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 6:39am
Yes all wires are new.
One question though. If I jump from terminal 1 to the battery stud, there would be no load to trigger the alternator?

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 6:59am
You said the idiot light stays on, so i conclude you have an idiot light, led and resistor in series to terminal #1?  That's a lot of stuff. As a test use the jumper per Jim.
After that, use just the bulb. Those bulbs are about 45 ohms I think. The bulb holder must have two wires, nothing grounded here.

Next I would jumper in a test ground wire from battery negative post to alternator body.
The assumption is you have good ground. You swapped alternator, changed pulley size. So you have put effort into this. Should work, so maybe a fundamental requirement is lacking-a good ground.




Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 7:22am

here's what inside....
oops.. 3 wire below...

If the diode trio doesn't supply higher voltage than battery, light stays on.


-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: DonnaS
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 7:26am
My question is the alternator itsself you said you swapped it and have a 3 plug Delco style, was that was was in it before?, my understanding was always you had to stay with it older 2 plug style?


Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 7:55am
You can wait until warmer weather to fix the problem, just charge the battery up before use. You should be able to run it for a couple of hours before it starts missing and that will let you know it is time for a recharge.

-------------
1957 WD45 dad's first AC

1968 one-seventy

1956 F40 Ferguson


Posted By: bradley6874
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 8:16am
I am with Donna on this you said three wire Delco alternator. .what’s yours???

-------------
You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 8:35am
How about posting a photo of the back of your alternator, terminal end, so we can all be sure which alternator we are talking about.


Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 10:28am
Folks,
Ok I attempted to follow along a little. I am terrible at electrical stuff. I think we could/ should have a place to go to set up a custom electrical system for some of these orange units? I have done 5 WD series. I ended up doing 4 the same way and the last has a different smaller Alternator which did not need the exciter wire. I use the voltmeter rather than a ammeter, which is always debated. But it works for me. I have also gone to mariner grade key switches and toggles for the lights. Seems better that the NAPA stuff, sorry NAPA!
I am still learning and lots of folks on here have helped me just like this!
I do like how robust the updated 12 volt systems work. I had one of the WD's set all winter and it fired up immediately in the spring!
Regards,
 Chris 


-------------
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 10:33pm

Sorry about pic size. All I have is an android phone and android tablet, and haven't found a way to resize. If to big, what works for me is to open it in a new tab or window.
Heavy white wire, (which has been replaced since picture was taken) goes to battery side of starter solenoid. Red wire goes to battery side of starter solenoid. Green/yellow wire goes to idiot light.
Checked, and have ground from case to engine block.

Started with just the light in the circuit. Light stayed on, so added the resistor to increase load due to fact it is a LED, so small load.
Was originally a generator (1952ish) but, was changed to an alternator by a previous owner.
Thought about just charging battery every time, but would like to be able to add lights, because it is dark before I get home from work to move snow.


-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 5:06am
resized




Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 6:16am
Try the temporary connections in this photo and see if it charges. You can just unplug the red/green wire connector and use spade terminals (to replace the connector) to make up the jumpers, you can put test clips on the other end of the wires so you don't have to hold them but can remove them easily. You can get battery voltage from the Battery/output terminal of the alternator to feed terminal. Another thought regarding the LED, most are polarity sensitive, I would remove the LED and try it with a regular incandescent bulb, no diode.



Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 6:48am
Will give that a try.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 6:53am
If you try an incandescent bulb remember the socket needs to be isolated from ground and it needs ground and power wires for the bulb so it ties into the wire to the alternator in series.


Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 9:50am
It may be charging but just not through the ampmeter. Check your wiring to amp meter

-------------
CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914


Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Ted in NE-OH Ted in NE-OH wrote:

It may be charging but just not through the ampmeter. Check your wiring to amp meter
He states he only has 11.5 volts at the battery, that's not charging.


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 10:23am
If I were standing there, I'd disconnect that white wire from the big post, tape it, and run a new wire from that stud, direct to the battery +post... then start it, and put a voltmeter on the battery and see if it climbs up.  If the existing (white) wire is going through the ammeter into the original wiring, there's probably a mouse-chewed who-knows going on.


-------------
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 1:51pm
He said in an earlier post the white wire had been replaced since the photo was taken. If I understood it in an earlier post the new wire already goes to the stud of the starter switch same as the battery cable does, bypassing the ammeter.


Posted By: JC(WI)
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 2:42pm
Should have 13.6 - 14.3 volts right on the main stud of the alternator... some of them had a spot in the back cover that you could stick a small screwdriver or nail in to ground the regulator to get full charge to see if the alt. was working.
 Don't see the the hole on this alt. cover.


-------------
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 11:02pm
Didn't get a chance to look at it tonight. Wife drug me out Christmas shopping.
Coworker mentioned the spot on the regulator, but I understood him as to pushing a button in there. Didn't understand grounding the regulator. May try that. Could someone explain that a little more.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: JC(WI)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 3:24am


-------------
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: JC(WI)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 3:28am


-------------
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 5:26am
I think the white wire is blocking being able to see the test tab in your photo. When I blow the photo up I think the edge of the hole is visible. It should be right in the area The arrow points to. If you look in the hole you should see the tab. That's where it will be if its there. Try the jumper wires first to rule out the lack of excitation power.

Just to confirm. The battery is hooked up negative ground correct?



Posted By: OhKen
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:12am
Put some LED lights on your loader and you won't have a problem with the battery being drained that quick . Prefer a volt gauge over ammeter .


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:58am
Thanks fellas. That clears things up. I was under the impression there was a button to push, so I was using a wooden stick so I wouldn't short something. Now I understand that is the object.

This forum is a wealth of knowledge.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2019 at 10:47pm
Yes, it is negative ground.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2019 at 4:56am
Good. Keep us posted on how you make out with testing it.


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2019 at 10:40pm
Tried shorting the rectifier to the case tonight. No luck.


-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Dnoym N. S. Can.
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2019 at 11:35pm
#1 put your test light clip on the alternator case
#2 put your light probe on the white bat stud
dose the light come on if yes
#3 cut  your green and red wire off at the
connector peel them back and twist them
together  get a 194 bulb and socket and connect
one end to the red and green wire and the other
end to the white Battery stud on the alternator
the 194 bulb should light up
#4  start the motor and 1/2  throttle.
dose the light go out?


   HTH       B:-)      Dnoym


Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 7:04am
If your battery is 11.5 volts it is considered low, 0 percent of charge. Charge it up.

The whole idiot light/led resistor thing has me confused. A small signal led cannot pass enough current, 0.03 amps would be typical. The original indicator lamp would pass 0.28 amps ( 9 times more). Adding 10 ohm or 5 ohm resistors will only throttle down the current flow even slightly more, if they are in series. So we don't know how that is actually connected. The LED is the unknown, we all suggested getting rid of the LED.
This thread is getting long, but I didn't read where you said more or less "I now have only the 5 ohm resistor, no more LED".

A good 10SI alternator wired up per Steve's diagram will work. If you had that set up and it still didn't charge, then the alternator is bad.

I think the grounding of the regulator for full output test with screw driver in the D shaped hole will only work if the #1 and #2 terminals are wired up correct. Not sure on that point. But it could render the test inconclusive.


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 7:43am
Dnoym's check for power at the battery terminal is a good point, I don't think you have posted that you ever checked the voltage there. What does the voltage show at that terminal? If there is a bad connection some where in that circuit, and that wire is "dead", it won't show charge at the battery.

Has the engine been run with that battery wire disconnected, or a cable disconnected from the battery, since the new alternator was installed? Alternators are not like generators in that they can fail if there is no place for output to go, thus one should never disconnect a battery cable to check an alternator.


Posted By: JC(WI)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 10:15am
If his battery is 11.6 volts and still turns the engine over, the alternator should still charge it. 

 Truckerfarmer, DO You have app. 12 positive VOLTS at the alternator charge terminal post?
If you do, make a jumper set of wires with a pigtail and put on R1 and F2, with pigtail   that will reach the main terminal lug on the alternator... do not connect pigtail yet.
Now hook up your tester from ground post on alternator and the positve lead on the charging post. Meter should be reading battery voltage.
Start the tractor.
Tester should still be reading original volts.
Now take the pigtail from R1,F2 and apply directly to charge terminal post.
 Did your meter change at all, it should be charging 13.6-14.3 volts. If it isn't, the alternator needs looking at...
 If your batter is really low, it might take a few minutes to show higher voltage. hth


-------------
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 12:12pm
The  10 OHM resister in the line to #1 terminal is in SERIES with the alternator.. The CURRENT is constant in that line... The resister is used to slightly DROP the voltage so a lower value voltage is noted at the #1 terminal.. That low voltage is the SIGNAL to tell the alternator to start charging.. If you connect the #1 and #2 terminals, I don't think it will ever decide to charge.. You need a VOLTAGE DROP to #1 to SIGNAL it to startup..... The Lightbulb is suppose to do the same thing, but I always use the 10 ohm resister... As mentioned, if you have the #2 terminal and the BIG lug connected to the battery, and have a 10 ohm resister in the line to #1 terminal, and it don't charge, then the alternator has a problem ( internal voltage regulator bad).

-------------
Trump Is Not A Lib or Conserv, He's a "Pragmatist." (someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. Has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract him or her


Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 12:16pm
I use the 10 ohm resistor because I had a DELCO Service Manual about 1975 and it had a procedure to test the alternator on the bench..... always works... They used the 10 ohm resistor connected to the #1 terminal.. If you go to the AUto Store and have yours tested, I assume inside the machine it is using a similar setup.

-------------
Trump Is Not A Lib or Conserv, He's a "Pragmatist." (someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. Has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract him or her


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2019 at 10:43pm
Have the proper voltages at the different terminals. The resistor creates a draw at the alternator triggering it to start charging. Without a load it won't charge.
Didn't change out the white wire right away when I first put the alternator on, so thinking I may have fried the rectifier.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2019 at 5:03am
Sounds like it may be time to pull it off and have it checked again.


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 8:01am
Pulled the alternator and had it checked again. Tested as good, again. Gonna be a nice day today, 38* and sunshine, so hope to work on it this afternoon. Picked up a battery load tester, so will put full load to it and see what happens.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 10:01am
The proper charging voltage is 14.200 volts.

The series resistor on the regulator supply wire from the gas tractor ignition circuit is there to prevent the regulator back feeding power to the tractor ignition circuit to allow the tractor to stop with the ignition switch turned off.

Gerald J.


Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 10:47am
Originally posted by truckerfarmer truckerfarmer wrote:

The resistor creates a draw at the alternator triggering it to start charging. Without a load it won't charge.

 That CAN'T be right! I have had 2 tractors set up with this style alternator and Neither one has any kind of resistor anywhere in the charging system.
 I also have no idiot light. I put a diode in the green 'exciting' wire and hooked the red wire to the Battery stud on the alternator. It's worked fine for 15 years on my WD45.


-------------
http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF


Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 1:11pm
"Picked up a battery load tester"....beware of parts store $40 testers.....My batter store says they don't load a batter hard enough to prove anything....as was the case on my WD 6V battery. Mine said it was good but it wouldn't crank it over. New battery whips it.


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2019 at 2:03pm
OK you had your alternator checked again and it is OK. Start in one spot and follow a path.

1. You said the wire to the alternator is connected to the same terminal on the starter solenoid relay as the positive battery cable is connected to - correct? Confirm you have battery voltage at the alternator output/battery terminal. If not find out why. If that circuit isn't complete your battery voltage will not come up.

2. If that voltage checks out ok, disconnect the two other wires and jumper terminal 2 direct to the output/battery post on the alternator. Make a jumper for terminal 1 with a female terminal to fit the alternator terminal and put a clip on the free end.

3. Start the tractor (be sure its in neutral) and check battery voltage.

4. With the tractor running clip the wire from the number 1 terminal to the output/battery terminal on the alternator. Check the voltage at the battery, it might take a couple minutes but it should start to come up. Remove the wire from the output/battery terminal of the alternator before you shut the engine off.

If the voltage comes up this way the problem is likely in your circuit to the #1 terminal. That circuit should have an incandescent bulb or a diode in it, not a resistor as such. Or add an oil pressure switch and feed the # 1 terminal through it - no bulb or diode required that way.


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 9:15pm
Good news!!!
Got it working this afternoon. Switched out the led light with a non led 2" clearance light. Light goes out at about 1/2 throttle. Really hated giving up the led, because it fit so nicely in the hole in the dash. For now light is taped to steering column, til I find a light that will fit.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2019 at 6:18am
nice to hear !
One option you can try is to put a 10 ohm resistor in PARALLEL with the LED. I've been meaning to do that  but 'misplaced' the neat LEDs I had that fit into the dash.
Maybe I SHOULD clean up the garage ???


-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)

Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water


Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2019 at 6:58am
You should be able to get small diameter, non LED warning lamp holders at NAPA and other parts stores.


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2019 at 8:30pm
Hmmmm, parallel? I hadn't thought of that Jay. I may have to give that a try. It would still have the load of the resistor and possibly still use the led. Been 30 years since I got out of school, (I have an associates degree in electronics) but never went into that field, so, I have forgotten most of it. I used to have Ohms law memorized, but not anymore.

-------------
Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net