CA Rebuild - Engine Compression
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=166122
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Topic: CA Rebuild - Engine Compression
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Subject: CA Rebuild - Engine Compression
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 7:55pm
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After putting my 1951 CA back together, it would not start even using starter fluid sprayed into the carb air intake. The starter works great and it has spark. Compression is only 15 to 20 psi in each cylinder. Should this be closer to 100 psi? Should my next step be to replace the piston rings or could the non-starting problem be elsewhere? The CA did not run when I bought it 21 years ago. I've worked on the following: unseized the engine, valve job by machine shop, adjusted valve stem and rocker arm clearance to .012, new manifold and exhaust, converted to 12 volt system (new battery, wiring, coil, spark plug wires, spark plugs [set to .030 gap], new alternator), new electronic ignition and rotor, set the timing, cleaned & refurbed the starter (no new parts), new gaskets, new temp & oil gauges, new oil filter, new gas line and oil tubes. I rebuilt the carburetor but suspect it still has some problems (e.g. main jet). However, I was thinking that by using starter fluid, this should bypass carb problems and at least allow the engine to start. Once I get the engine to start, my plan was to work on the carburetor again. I did not replace the piston rings or piston sleeves. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
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Replies:
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 7:59pm
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That compression is terribly low. I did a compression test on a D15 on the weekend and I was getting 180-190 psi on all 4 cylinders. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '63 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 8:17pm
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Have you had the pistons out of the engine or just get them unstuck?? If just unstuck, I would guess that the rings are still stuck in the ring grooves. You will probably have to remove them and either replace them or at least free them up. I would vote for replacement if the bore wear is within reason. 15 or 20 psi is too low for the engine to start. How did you do your compression test? Engine should be spun over with a good battery and all plugs removed and carb wide open to get an accurate reading.
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Posted By: Dakota Dave
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 8:47pm
| With compression that low it'll never start needs minimum of a 100 psi to run. You could do a leak down test to see if it's rings or valves but with them all about the same I'd bet the rings are stuck to the Pistons. The only sure way to free them up is remove the Pistons and free the rings if you don't break them you can put back in and it will probably run. You could put marvel misery oil in all the cylinders put air pressure on the cylinders as you rotate the engine to try and get between the rings and cylinder walls. Works ok some times if it's only one cylinder. I'd pull the head clean and lap all the valves. if the ring groove is minimal take the rings off clean the ring groove and reinstall. Keep the rod bearings together and reinstall in the same place. Slap a new head gasket on and put it back together. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 9:19pm
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The shop manual might help: http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf Valves not closing completely could kill compression as could very worn cylinders and piston rings. Gerald J. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 9:36pm
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If the rings are STUCK, you probably will not get them off the pistons in one piece.. I would pull the pistons and plan on hone and new rings.... if you have the time, you could pull the spark plugs and fill each cylinder with 50% acetone and 50% auto trans fluid and let it set for a month.. crank over and blow all the oil out... then run another compression test....... if the penetrant don't loosen the rings, then its time pull them out.. ---------- sometimes a quick test is to put 2 spoon fulls of engine oil in one spark plug hole and then rerun the compression test.. The oil will momentarily fill in the ring gap and raise compression... if that works, you know the rings are the problem. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 9:39pm
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Check valve clearance. That is easy to do. ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 9:54pm
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After checking the valves, if they are OK, put a tablespoon of oil in the cylinders one at a time and re-run the compression test. If the compression come up, it’s the rings. If that’s the case, before a full tear down, I would put Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders and let them soak for a few weeks. Yes, a few weeks. As the oil drips past the rings, put more in. After 2 or 3 weeks, drain the crankcase, refill the oil, put a little oil in the cylinders and see if you can get it to start. If you can get it to run for any length of time, between that and the MMO, you might loosen up the rings. It’s been done. If it doesn’t work, all you lost is a few weeks and the cost of some MMO. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2019 at 7:09am
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I am sure (if) you have not removed the pistons to check the condition of both the sleeves and pistons that some of the rings are stuck and not expanding to seal the air in the firing chamber. New rings may even not be able to raise the compress to where you get full power. You eyes are never precise enough to know if the piston and sleeves are close enough to spec to reuse. If the sleeves are pitted bad where they were stuck they would always give you problems even it inside diameter is within spec. Without rings and the piston down in the sleeve and you can get a feeler gage of much more than .010 down one side of the piston you will still get blow by out the breather with oil mist. Very hard to adjust a carburetor to solve running problems with low compression. No way can you guess what condition of pistons, rings or sleeves without measuring in some fashion. A feeler gage, a straight edge, and a flashlight will get you in the ballpark if used correctly, if you do not have access to measuring instruments. |
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 2:13pm
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Thanks for all the input. I injected MMO in each cylinder and put it under air pressure (used quarter inch black pipe with quick connect on end). Rec-checked the psi and there is no improvement. I added some more MMO and will let it still a week and try again later. When I put each cylinder under pressure, #1 and #4 had alot of air run up and out the oil fill pipe. This didn't happen on #2 and #3. Does this indicate a valve problem on #1 and #4? How do I fix? Since a machine shop did a valve job on it, I did not expect problems. I did have some air leakage around the valve cover gasket - I just tightened the nuts until it stopped leaking. Alberta Phil - I checked compression with a psi gauge attached to quarter inch black pipe insert in spark plug hole, then ran the starter motor. Dakota Dave - failed the leak down test miserably. Indicator would fall to zero immediately. Steve (ill) - the MMO did not momentarily raise the compression. Does this indicate an unrelated problem (other than the rings), or should I re-test with heavier weight oil? Ted in NE-OH - How do I check valve clearance, evaluate the results and make needed adjustments? Everyone - Thanks for all the input.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 2:46pm
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Air coming out the oil breather is called blow by. The term blow by means combustion gasses are going by the rings into the oil pan and then out the breather pipe when the cylinder fires. In your case with it not running it is just air. The rings need to be free and lose in the ring groove to have the ability to expand out against the sleeve wall to seal all air and gasses in the firing chamber. I have used seafoam on a running engine to loosen up oil rings to stop smoking over time. Most of the time when all rings on a piston are stuck they have to be pried out in pieces. If a valve is leaking the air will either come out the exhaust or the carburetor. Valves clearance will need to be .010 to .012 at top dead center on the compression stroke. I always check with both rocker arms on the same cylinder in the up position. With both rocker arms up both valves are closed so compression can be built. You can turn the pushrods with your fingers at that point as well as insert a feeler gage between the rocker arm pad and the top of the valve. When a four cylinder engine sets where water can get in thru the exhaust only two cylinder will fill with water and rust fast normally. No way to know the condition of the engine before it was let to get water in. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 4:05pm
| Are you sure the cam is timed correctly with the crankshaft? |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2019 at 7:06pm
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Dale, Man I wish you had some of these guys standing around your tractor as you are testing things! I am no expert at all. but some things here bother me. some good somme not so good. Lets see: You had the head done by a reputable shop: good You have re- assembled the engine? or just got it unstuck and re-assembled the tractor?: If it was stuck and you had the head off what did the sleevwes look like? Dis you get it unstuck befor or after the head was removed? Said it never ran when you got it: Well that not good. As you know They have to have gas, spark and compression, (timing is required to be close too) You have set the valve lash to spec: good You Have never had it running: well sounds like thats the goal here. we will continue to help until you stop posting and or run out of money! At least that's the way it worked for me on my last WD45 project!:) Your compression testing as a static engine with air pressure you would need to have each cylinder with both valves closed for that cylinder. Is that the way you were setting that up? When you hand crank it (ignition off) does it spin over very very easy with the spark plugs in place? Sorry for all the questions! Trying to be there with you. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 4:54am
I’ve had a RC tractor that ran with only 30 psi compression. Although it did smoke terribly . If he has carburetor problems, that needs to be addressed before it can run. With either you’ll have either too much or too little fuel to get it to run. ------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Dakota Dave wrote:Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 7:31am
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It almost sounds like the poor beastie wore itself out.. 15-20 PSI on all 4 cylinders.. then parked. I'd pull the pistons and sleeves, though I bet 'kits' are $$$$, you've already done the head. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 9:18am
Very true Paul they will run on low compression and will run fair even at 50 pounds with a little smoke. I would venture a guess that his one and four is in the 15 pound range where he has air coming out the breather. Hard to keep a vacuum at the carburetor with compression that low. With the timing firing at the proper time and start well. Lots of details unknown or not understood here. |
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 11:12pm
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Dick L: 1-thanks for info on blow by. Seems to verify problems with piston rings. 2-I had already adjusted the valve stem and rocker arm clearance to .012, but I'll check again if/when I take it apart. Based on past experience I think the engine should fire even if these aren't adjusted exactly. 3-I bought the tractor 21 years ago and took the head off, had a valve job done, reinstalled the head, and its been stored in the barn since then. If there had been signs of a lot of rust & corrosion in the cylinder heads at that time I probably would have either worked on that problem first or used it as yard art. My notes from 21 years ago had nothing about rust & corrosion and engine being seized - only that it wouldn't start and a list of replacement parts I needed. I'm thinking that the engine seized within the last 21 years while under cover. The oil was drained and the oil pan was off during this time which probably didn't help matters. 4- I did adjust the timing (which is another long story). So I think compression might be the next logical step to address in trying to get the engine to fire. Let me know your thoughts on suggested next steps. WF Owner: A friend and I did set the timing, but do have some lingering concerns. Since the flywheel did not have a TDC mark and the crankshaft pulley couldn't take the hand crank - I laid under the engine with a flashlight (the oil pan was off) and a friend pushed on the rear wheel in fourth gear until #1 was approximate TDC. Problem was that we had to turn the distributor about 30 degree counterclock wise to get #1 to line up from where it had been. If the engine doesn't fire after fixing the ring problem, I'll try moving the distributor back to where it was previously. My thinking is that the engine should fire (but maybe not run well) even if the timing is off a little. Sugarmaker: 1- see my #3 comment to Dick L above about sequence of events of seized engine. 2- yes I would like to get it running, so appreciate everyone's help. 3- I tested compression twice with a psi gauge attached to quarter inch black pipe inserted in the spark plug hole and then crank the engine with the starter a few seconds (with gas off). I did this separately for each cylinder. The first time I tested I would keep the other three spark plugs inserted. The second time I tested I kept all the spark plugs removed. All failed the leak down test miserably. Not sure what you mean by "Your compression testing as a static engine with air pressure you would need to have each cylinder with both valves closed for that cylinder". Can you clarify how I should make this this test. 4-I cannot hand crank my engine, the drive shaft pulley doesn't accept the hand crank. I can push the tractor in fourth gear, but it takes quite a bit of effort. jaybmiller: Replacement pistons/sleeves/rings are about $328 plus tax and shipping. Replacement rings only are about $50 plus tax and shipping. ALL: I currently assume the non-firing problem is caused by low compression due to rusted piston rings. As suggested by several, I'm soaking the cylinders with Marvel Mystery Oil, trying to loosen these rings up. Was wondering if a product designed to dissolve rust (like Evapo-Rust) might help. Any thoughts?
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 5:50am
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Someone did a test and the BEST stuff was a 50/50 mix of Acetone and Auto Tranny Fluid. I poured that into 'Troy, my #1 D-14', back in 2000.Kinda stuck from 25+ yrs of sittin. It took 2 weeks of 'fill the cylinders, test to rotate, then wait a day'. Once it would rotate( pipe wrench on PTO shaft), did it 2 more days, then drained oil,spray brake cleaner into cyls,fresh gas, battery, cough,cough, putt,putt... been fine since. I'd pull the 'new' head off ,add 50/50 ace/atf, and wait a day...see where the liquid goes.My idea is the acetone allows the ATF to get to all the surfaces and it 'breaks down' the carbon crud and lubes the metals, several applications 'flushes' the crud away, so more is better. just be sure to replace the engine oil before starting ! If she spins nice and still no compression, time to open the wallet and install 'kits'. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 6:03am
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You have a lot of good help by your side here, follow their advice and you will get it running. One thing I would suggest is you stop screwing 1/4" NPT nipples into your spark plug holes, before you damage the threads in the head. Either purchase some correct 14 mm to 1/4" pipe adapters or make a couple by welding or brazing a steel pipe nipple to the metal shell of an old spark plug (break and clean all the porcelain out of the shell first). These should also give you a better seal during testing. I'm surprised your compression tester didn't have a 14MM adapter with it, 14 and 18 mm are with most testers. Have you tried your compression tester in an engine, in running condition, to see that there is not a problem with your tester? Is the check valve in it working properly? When you positioned the engine at #1 TDC to check timing, did you check to see that the valves on #1 were closed (rockers loose, full clearance) and #4 cylinder valves were "on the rock" (no clearance, rockers tight). (I would set the valves at .014 cold as .012 is the hot spec.) Clean the flywheel good when in that position, you may find a faint mark. If not I would at least paint one on it for reference while working on the engine. Rotate the engine clockwise, if your facing the fan, so gear lash doesn't lose a few degrees on you. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 7:06am
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As for the low values on compression, I may be reading comprehension challenged, but it seems to me you made you own compression tester. I didn't see mention of a check valve in your set up. With out that, I would guess the readings would be low, there is no opportunity to "pump-up" on multiple compression strokes. Why don't you go to Harbor freight and purchase their $30 compression tester. I think the existing advice for MMO acetone or penetrating oils and time is good. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 8:18am
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Dale, I see that you cant hand crank the engine. To me that is going to make it a challenge to do things like set the valve lash? I understand the compression test concept but have never taken the time to go get a HF compression tester and do the work. So do you have a easy way to rotate the engine to bring number one to TDC and see if the # 1 cylinder valves are closed? This would be when you set the valve lash on #1. Then move on to number 2 cyl etc. I would not tear it apart yet. I would be very surprised that every one of the cylinders have completely stuck rings. Guess it is possible? If you have the plugs out and roll it over with your thumb on the spark plug hole does it want to blow your thumb off the hole? Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 1:34pm
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I never tell people to do as I do. When working on an engine I never assume anything. I should say anymore. I have been bit many times in the past by assuming. I tear every thing down to bare bones and work it back together. If I can not see and measure I am afraid of the worse. If it was here it first would be in little pieces where I could look at the rings. pistons, sleeves and bearings. It could be the reason I have several tractors, cars and trucks in little pieces. I little pieces I know exactly why it is not running.  
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Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 2:21pm
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Thanks again for everyone's input. Brian C: Thanks. I borrowed a "real" compression tester from O'Reilly's Auto Parts and found my compression to be okay. #1=105, #2=115, #3=105 (with slight leakage) and #4=100. So, good news is that piston/sleeve/rings should be in good shape, at least enough to let it start. I rotated the distributor timing back to the original setting (still had rust marks on the distributor base) and tried to fire the engine with starter fluid. Engine did not try to fire using the electric starter. It has spark. Next, I'll try the advise from Jim - ME and Sugarmaker on setting timing and valve stem/rocker arm clearance. This is difficult to do because the hand crank and pto don't work - I have to push/pull the back wheel while in fourth gear to turn the crankshaft in a controlled manner. Would appreciate in other ideas on why the engine will not fire. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 2:46pm
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I wouldn't use starter fluid aka ETHER. I use small size tubing and then 'suck and blow' a 'slug of gas' into the carb body. You've got compression, spark and gas, so it HAS to be timing. hmm.. when you say 'spark', doe s that mean ALL 4 plugs have fat blue spark ? ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 3:20pm
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Ok, better. My C has 105-115. But 100 is ok to start. And may improve after it runs through some cycles. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. So that is how you wire up the plug wires. What could be simpler than that? Hah- are you sure you know which way that distributor rotates? Pull the cap off and watch while cranking. Wire up accordingly. That one got me on the C with magneto. You would think it would backfire and be all dramatic but it wasn't, it certainly wouldn't start. Then once here we had a long thread about #1 at TDC and on the compression stroke. After all was said and done, it became clear that he had it wired 360 degrees out, I guess sparking on the exhaust stroke. Wired up right and next post was about success. As a rough timing mark, the front pulley set screw is built to be at #1 tdc when the screw is pointed straight up. However, I don't want to assume anything- you mentioned that something is not correct with your pulley and or hand crank. Maybe you got oddball parts there. Or no key in the slot. I predict it will be running very soon. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 5:29pm
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You might buy one of these and push in the timing inspection hole and spin it with a electric drill while turning the engine over engine over a few times. You might be surprised what might show up. https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEWALT-DW4902-1-Inch-by-1-4-Inch-High-Performance-Carbon-Knot-Wire-End-Brush-0/163270999215?epid=2254780075&hash=item2603b5bcaf:g:SzwAAOSwjtZbpTGZ" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEWALT-DW4902-1-Inch-by-1-4-Inch-High-Performance-Carbon-Knot-Wire-End-Brush-0/163270999215?epid=2254780075&hash=item2603b5bcaf:g:SzwAAOSwjtZbpTGZ |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 6:14pm
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I second what Dick L suggests, the marks can be hard to find. Get a brush as he suggests. Remove all the plugs. Working through the timing hole in the torque tube, use a a drill to run the brush against the flywheel while spinning the engine over with the starter. Dick can confirm this, but I believe the timing hole on a CA is on the left (setting in the seat), even though the manual says the right side. It may take several tries to clean the flywheel up, but you should find the marks. Then use the valve rock method to locate #1 at TDC and confirm it is on the compression stroke. Also you can carefully use a wire or plastic tube to reach in through the sparkplug hole and touch the piston. You will feel the piston come up (so you can watch for the marks to show in the timing hole), when it stops raising and starts to drop, you went by TDC, again #1 rockers clear of the valves and #4 cylinder valves are on the rock (both tight as exhaust closes and intake opens), will confirm #1 is on the compression stroke. Normally with all the plugs out and the transmission in neutral one can use the fan to turn the engine, you might have to put some pressure on the belt if it slips. You said the pto doesn't work. Did you engage the pto using the lever? You might have to turn the shaft a bit while pulling back on the lever to get it to engage. If you haven't, I would suggest you save a copy of the manual Gerald J. posted to your computer and print off the CA section to have with you in the shop as you work on your tractor. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 7:45pm
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Dale, Well Your doing good and learning too. I always learn something new on these things. Kind of glad that you didnt pull a Dick L and have it all in little pieces yet! Just kidding Dick! I know that is the way to bring them back to good working order!:) Ok You need to get a better way to turn that engine over easily and safely. If you can jack it up and use the rear tires in gear with out the spark plugs it may work. How did you rotate the engine to set the valve lash? Your valves must be fairly close or you wouldn't have gotten compression readings. Yes check the spark at the plugs to assure you have spark. Checking timing mark is good, but if you set the rotor of the distributor pointing at number 1 plug wire when #1 is at TDC, then wire the rest in the 1243 pattern you should be close enough it should pop! Good you have compression! Nice job getting the tool to check it! Now the fuel thing. Do you have gas to the carb? Remove line and check for flow from the tank. Open the bottom of the carb if it has a drain? If not keep taking the carb off or apart apart till you are sure that the bowl is getting gas and all carb components are in place and adjusted. I rarely have to use starting fluid to get one to fire. These guys helped me several years ago on a WD that would not start. Like you I had made many changes. It lacked fuel. I used a small spray bottle with some gas in it to mist into the open (air) end of the carb. It would run when I misted gas in. Which told me the carb was not working properly. Once that was fixed it fired right up. Sorry so long winded. Your almost there! Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 9:08am
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jaybmiller: I used a $9 spark ignition tester (connects to spark plug wire and the plug) and the white light flashed constantly on all four cylinders. There were no directions for its use, so I'm not sure if it can test for strength of spark. Do you think I should test them manually to see if it has a fat blue spark? Brian C: (1) I went out at midnight last night after reading your post to make sure my rotor turns clockwise as described in the manual (it does). (2) to check timing, is it possible to have someone manually rotate the distributor base [after loosening the bolts] while I pull on the starter until we find the correct position for it to fire? (3) my guess it that the hand crank front pulley was replaced with an aftermarket part. I assume the original broke due to over use of the hand crank - probably wouldn't start for him either. Dick L: thanks for the wire brush suggestion. I'll try it when I get someone to help turn the crank shaft. Jim-ME: (1) Any thoughts on my timing idea on Brian C comment #2 above? (2) with the radiator, fan blades, alternator and water pump installed I found it difficult to turn the crank shaft with the fan belt - but I'll try it again. (3) the pto lever is frozen, but I'll put a pipe wrench on the shaft to see if I can get it to move. This is on my list on items to work on [after the engine, brakes, hand clutch, hydraulics and new paint] (4) the tractor came with its original manual. Would be lost without it. I keep a zerox copy in the barn. Sugarmaker: (1) just having the tractor torn down in large chunks is a little overwhelming for me (2) I like the idea of jacking up the rear wheels - I'll try it. (3) I set the gap between the push rods and rocker arms when all the front end parts [radiator, fan blades, water pump and alternator] were removed. I stood on the front end [above the front wheels] and used the fan belt to turn the crank shaft pulley. While pulling from this height, I had a good view of the rocker arms. (4) any thoughts on my timing idea in Brian C comment #2 above? (5) I did attempt to rebuild the carb, but noticed that there were several potential problems. For one, the correct main jet seems to be missing - it just had a plug. I plan to buy a $27 replacement after I get the engine to fire. If I remove the main jet "plug" with the gas on, gas will flow out the carb. (6) My thinking on spraying starter fluid into the carb air intake [I've removed the air cleaner] to get the engine to fire, is that maybe it circumvents any carb problems. At this point, I'm just trying to get the engine to fire. After that I'll work on the carb/throttle/governor and try to get the engine to run. Today I'll try the idea of jacking up the back axle. Will appreciate any further comments/suggestions.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 10:51am
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Timing is fairly precise. (All) engines static time at (TDC) you first need to find TDC. You can remove the number one spark plug, Put a 1/4" 90º bend on a stiff wire down and six inches back put a 90º bend up. Put the short bend in the spark plug hole with the long end up. That is so you know the short end is down. Bring the number one piston up until it pushes the wire up. Stop when it start to go down Work the piston up and down a tiny bit until you know it is at TDC. You can then put a dot of white paint in the center of the inspection hole. With the white dot in the center of the hole and both rocker arms up loosen the distributor base and rotate back and fourth until you can see the points are just ready to open with the slightest movement. You are then in time! You will not get any closer unless your using a timing light. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- for those that doubt my disassembly remark, this is how I started to work on the dead tractors I bought years ago. https://public.fotki.com/DickL/disassembly_of_litt/" rel="nofollow - https://public.fotki.com/DickL/disassembly_of_litt/ |
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 11:32am
| Dick L: I have replaced the points with electronic ignition. How do I make the fine timing adjustment with electronic ignition? |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 11:45am
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Dale, Now you went and done it! Just kidding! I was absorbing you standing over the tractor turning the engine!:)I think your doing very good. Most of us have been there maybe more than once. Sounds like you have spark. I use a tester similar to that too. So timing and fuel. I would work on the fuel issue. I think if you get it to fire/run you can rotate the distributor a little to get it to run for a little while. Then tune the timing later. Dick has a good suggestion to find TDC on #1 with the wire as a indicator. (I am going to go out on a limb here and make a comment that I will probably get shot down on? But on any WD tractor I have worked on the side bolt holding the crank pulley on is in a vertical up (I think) position when the #1 piston is at the top. Not sure on the other AC tractors? My point is that it made it much easier to turn the engine looking at that crank bolt, to get the position of each cylinder close.) After that you just need to see if the valves are closed if yes then your at #1 TDC. As you can see by the comments each of us has different methods to get to the same point in the timing procedure. But be assured that we all have to get the machine/ engine in the same position that we speak of. Fuel: So i have not had one of these carbs apart. But you have so at this point when your standing in your shop, you are the expert! If you dont think your the expert yet , then take it apart again till you are. If you have a exploded parts list of the carb that should allow you to find each part and make sure its correct and in place. Spray carb cleaner through each orifice and or air to assure they are open. Sounds like you have gas at the carb. Your almost there! I can hear it run now! Good folks on here to help you in the details. Steve @ B&B can tell you about the electronic ignition. Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 1:21pm
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I am more with Dick's thoughts on doing initial timing. The starting point for timing is TDC on the #1 compression stroke, its hit or miss until you find that point. You would be just as hit or miss on getting it right by turning the distributor while cranking the engine with the starter. JMHO. Nothing against using the electronic ignition but I would also have kept the point ignition at least until I got it running, then changed it. I can fix a point or condenser problem, I can't do much if the EI has an issue. Again my thoughts, others will differ, no problem. Your engine must have a lot of drag. With the fan belt tight and pulling on a fan blade all mine will turn reasonably, with all 4 spark plugs out. I'm not saying its easy and you won't get a few scrapes, but it should work. I do that before I would use a crank, again personal choice. If you remove the valve cover you can watch the valve rockers for cylinders 1 and 4. The valve nearest the fan is #1 exhaust, you will see the push rod side go down and the valve side raise as the exhaust stroke completes, at the same time the next valve, #1 intake, is starting to go down to open. Watch the intake as you turn when you see it starting to close the compression stroke is starting. That is the time to use the wire as Dick suggested. Also watch for #4 cylinder valves to be on the rock (the exhaust will be just closing and the intake just opening), #1 will be TDC on its compression stroke, or very close, at that point. Keep at it you will get there. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 2:42pm
| I have never used an electronic ignition. I am not totally sure! I would most likely leave the distributor cap in place with the switch on and watch for spark at the end of the number one plug wire. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 3:08pm
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I connect all four plugs and lay on the tin, that way you can SEE that all 4 fire. One D14 didn't, had a bad dist. cap.....'borrowed ' cap from other D-14, ran great then ! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 5:28pm
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Do this 10 minute easy diagnostic and fix- 1) Rotate the engine so that front pulley set screw is straight dead up 12 o'clock. 2) Remove the distributor cap. The rotor should be pointing at either #1 or #4 post. 3) If it is pointing at either #1 OR #4, then pull the wires from the distributor, and rotate them all as a pattern, 2 holes clockwise. 4) Now it will start (with ether or gas spray bottle). Or, at least bark. Guaranteed! If the rotor was not pointing at #1 or #4, then distributor is installed wrong. But if it is pointing at #2 or #3, then move the wires to match that ("go with the flow"). Again after that, you may have to try the other rotation possibility step 3. |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 8:20am
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Brian, So straight up on the crank pulley screw puts #1 and #4 piston in the up position. One of them ready to fire one is on exhaust stroke. Great tip. Like you say then just need to make sure the distributor points to the one that is ready to fire. Switching plug wires gives you that option. I would add that if its pointing at #1, I would try it there first, because maybe they are in the correct position? Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 10:15am
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Yeas ago over on YT there was a guy in Michigan that was asking advise for over a year trying to get his CA to run. All kinds of advise of what was wrong but after trying to follow the different advices it would not start and run. One day he said he wanted it gone. He had decided that something was wrong with the engine that would cost more than he was willing to put into it. I emailed him and ask what he had to have. After responding I drove up into Michigan and winched it on my trailer. When I was home in my drive I crawled up on the trailer, set the timing, hit the starter, it came to life and I drove it off the trailer. In that same time period another guy in Michigan had his Dads Oliver 66 that had set in a barn for years and would not run. He told me several people had looked at it and tried everything to get it to run but it wouldn't start. When I got there he had a couple of guys trying to start it. When they walked away I set the timing, hooked up my Jump & Carry, sprayed starter fluid into the carburetor and it started. I kept misting starter fluid to keep it running and didn't see any bad smoke. I paid for it, winched it on. When home I cleaned the carburetor and the next weekend I took it to tractor pull and took second place in the 3,000 pound class. The two guys that was trying to start it when I got there to look at it walked up to the side of the trailer while it was still loaded. I was coming back from sighing up and over one say that tractor look like the one some crazy bought from so and so. Yup, I said I be that crazy fellow. Knowing how to time an engine is kinda important. This is the CA 
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 10:27am
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Man, all the posts on this particular subject got me wondering about the timing. IF the compression is that low on a couple cylinders, I don't see how that would start and actually run, but timing plays a BIG role in all of that. With the pan off for more than 20 years, I can see the engine getting stuck! Nothin' there to protect the crank, rods, n' pistons and above all the cylinders. To me, a sleeve kit is in order, and I would just tear it down, install the new sleeve/piston kit, and start from the bottom up and redo it. The head is done already, so to me, it would go together pretty quick. Make sure the timing is on, valves close, Carb ready to rock, and fire that dude up, and once warmed up close to operating temps, dial everything in.......  Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 11:04am
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Steve, You missed a couple posts. He barrowed an actual compressor tester from a parts store and had a good compression! If it is out of time with a new carburetor it will still not start. I was trying to point out the importance of having it in time first and foremost. My thoughts are the same as yours on low compression. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 12:50pm
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I know how frustrating getting it timed right can be. I ran across this page a few years ago and it has helped me a lot (for both distributor and magneto). It explains it step-by-step better than I ever could. Here's the link: http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo4.html" rel="nofollow - http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo4.html |
Posted By: Valiant Farmer
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 3:19am
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Hope it all goes well! -Samuel |
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 1:53pm
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Success! Today I was able to get the CA engine to fire using starter fluid, after making some timing adjustments you had suggested. I will start working on the carburetor next. Thanks to everyone for your advice. Here is what I did on timing to get the engine to fire:
I’ll start looking at the Zenith model 61 carburetor again. As I mentioned before, I noticed it didn’t appear to have the correct main jet when I attempted my earlier rebuild. Any carburetor advice will be appreciated. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:03pm
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GREAT !!!  Always nice to hear about sucess ! Another old Allis about to become 'field ready' ! re: carb rebuild stuff I know... a clean workbench, lots of light, dental picks, 2 or 3 BIG diagrams of 'what goes where', do a total teardown, clean everything 2-3 times, 'polish' jets with 800-1000g sandpaper. look for 'hidden' passages and clean them as well. very small drill bits can 'ream' out crud spray brake cleaner help remove varnish but WEAR GLASSES, be careful spraying it. put float in big bowl of water, weigh it down, any bubbles..there's a leak, needs to be soldered over. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Valiant Farmer
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:16pm
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Great job! -Samuel |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:20pm
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Awesome!:) Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:36pm
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The happy times! Some people say timing is everything. Few more items- Can you confirm that the front pulley set screw is at 12 o'clock when the "C" flywheel mark is showing? EDIT: I guess the answer is yes as you clearly stated Now that you have the F timing mark, this is your target for the timing light when engine is running fast. If the electronic ignition is Pertronix, they put out a bulletin that the plug wires must not be wire, have to use resistor type. Can just the wire from the coil be resistance type, I don't know. Or use resistor plugs? call 'em. I would be curious to know the crankshaft end play, this will tell you if the thrust bearing is good. .001" to .005" is spec. Worn out ones can have .035 or so. Put a gravity type fuel filter in the fuel line. If your fuel line is
original and you don't want to butcher it, replace with rubber line and
fuel filter. This way your carburetor cleanup work won't be spoiled. |
Posted By: Dale (Stonelick)
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 4:02pm
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[QUOTE=BrianC] The happy times! Some people say timing is everything. Few more items-
Steve in NJ: I'm using new Autolite 295 plugs that came with a tune up kit (points/condenser/rotor) that I bought online before buying your electronic ignition. Will this Autolite 295 work okay? I notice that Steiner has replaced the 295 with Autolite ABC 168.
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Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 4:44pm
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Glad to hear you got it to fire. It should run when you get the fuel squared away. Just so you know there are two schools of thought, like with everything, on using the inline filters. first is they are good. The other is they restrict the fuel flow some and are not as good on a gravity flow system such as is found on a tractor. I still have the sediment bowls and steel lines on all of mine and don't have any problems. Asking about plugs will usually get you many opinions. I have been changing over to NGK plugs (NGK Stock # 3219, NGK # B4). Never had long life from Autolite plugs, AC plugs don't seem to be as good as the old ones, and Champion plugs were a real let down the last time I got some. Just my opinion, glad if others have different luck. Guess that's why we have different brands, gives us some to complain about. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 5:39pm
All you need is a set of feeler gauges long enough to reach between the edge of the pulley, and the front of the pan. Measure it relaxed, then measure it with the pry bar, against it. Also watch, as you pry, to see if the crank pulley bolt is moving or loose... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |