Allis B engine rebuild
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=164011
Printed Date: 03 Mar 2025 at 1:30pm
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Topic: Allis B engine rebuild
Posted By: Levibridge95
Subject: Allis B engine rebuild
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 9:28pm
| I'm gonna start my 1st rebuild in my AC B on Monday. I have new sleeves, pistons, and bearings. I got the crank grounded down to .020". Any advice to give a newbie? Definitely gonna take my time with it. |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2019 at 9:49pm
| New shims for all main caps and rod caps. New cam bearings. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 3:36am
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Clean everything up. After you get the most of the old grime off, use brake cleaner to finish the cleaning job. Even though they may look fine, make sure to install new core plugs in the head. They are quite inexpensive. When you get the old plugs out, I guarantee you the back side won't look as good as the top side. Before you install the sleeves, spend some time cleaning all the surfaces. I use a razor blade and dental type picks on the (top) counterbores on the top of the block. Before you put the O rings on the sleeves, dry fit the sleeves, If they go in easily, install the O rings, lubricate them (some use vegetable oil, I use a mixture of dish washing soap and water), tihen be very careful to not twist the O rings when you are installing the sleeves. Make sure you have an Allis Chalmers Sevice Manual (not I&T). Go slow and follow the directions step by step.
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Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 7:56am
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Levi, Yes take your time. I have never done a B. But the overhaul on the WD45 engine this spring made me better appreciate these old tractors. I spent a lot of time cleaning the sleeve seats and getting the sleeve protrusion correct. Make sure to clock the rings. Assembly lube on just about everything! Have fun and enjoy the process. Pictures can help along the way too. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 8:05am
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I always set bare new sleeved down in the hole and make sure they will turn by hand 360º before installing the O rings. I use a die grinder with a flapper drum to clean the bottom bore. I have had one area the took more flapper sanding to get the sleeve to set down square and turn 360º. If they are not turning I use bluing and set them down without turning to read where the bluing is being scraped off. After the sleeves are set and held down with a short 7/16" cap screw with a washer I put each ring from a set down in the sleeve and check the end gap with a feeler gage. I have found in a complete boxed ring set a pack of rings with an over lap rather than a gap. Even though you have a fresh ground crankshaft with matched bearings check each bearing with plastigage for clearance. Making sure the bearing is properly lubed and torqued, rotate the crank to make sure turns free before installing another bearing. Main and rod caps are not new and could have been distorted and could be a couple thousands wider at the bottom than the sides causing them to be tight with a good reading. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 8:13am
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you had the crank ground... AND you got matching bearings for it from the grinder ? no shims needed if you MATCH the new bearings to the crank. did they machine the rod journals or just the mains ? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 10:00am
Grinding the crank and getting matching bearings does NOT mean you can eliminate the shims. Only line boring will allow to assemble without the proper shims. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
steve(ill) wrote:Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 11:44am
The rods have to be bored also or what is called reconditioned. The were manufactured with a spacer the thickness of the shim packs. The crankcase would have also been line bored with spacers for the mains. Without the shims the holes for bearings are out of round. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 1:12pm
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Shop manual is at: http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf Gerald J. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 4:49pm
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Grinding the crank and getting matching bearings does NOT mean you can eliminate the shims. Only line boring will allow to assemble without the proper shims. YEP.......... guess I was reading WAY TOO MUCH Into his bearing statement.. It was more of a question , but your right, he didn't say anything except crank grind. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Levibridge95
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 4:52pm
| The machinist said to get .020" bearings. I got the rebuild kit from jim danforth @ oktractor. Did new valves and work on the head. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 9:48pm
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A bit of advice. After you open your -.020 bearings, check them to make sure they are the right bearings !!! I know this from a very recent overhaul of a G226 (Thank you DrAllis) ! My machinist checked the crank on my engine and said it would be fine with new standard main bearings. I ordered a set of standard bearings. The box said standard bearings. I put them in and just snugged the main caps. I couldn't turn the crankshaft. After trying some other things (removing the cam) DrAllis suggested I check the size of the bearings. I looked again at the box and told him the box said standard. He repeated to check the actual bearings. Guess what ! The bearings said .020 ! For some reason the bearings were in the wrong box. The bad part is that someone probably got a box that said .020 and I bet his engine turned very easy (for a while!). DrAllis told me it happened tp him before. I will ALWAYS check them in the future. I now have a set of .020 bearings for a G226 that I will never use and I'm out $120 for a new set of standard bearings. If you have the right bearings, you should use a full new shim pack for each bearing. Check your clearance with Plastigauge to be sure ! Sorry so long!!!
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Posted By: Levibridge95
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 9:51pm
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2019 at 10:01pm
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When you get the shim pack, you will probably think it contains 6 shims (2 for each bearing). In reality, there are (usually) 24 shims. They are stuck together and you have to really look at them to realize that each pack contains four shims. Theoretically, if your crankshaft is freshly ground, you should use a full pack and have the correct clearance. The original purpose of the shims was that you removed shims as the crankshaft wore, to maintain the correct clearance. I, personally, always check the clearance (even on engines that don't use shims) to check the correct clearance.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 8:36am
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a "SHIM PACK".... is normally a few shims together that measure .006 inch... A PACK goes on each bearing cap bolt........ don't let the bearing touch the shim, just the CAP face. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 9:41am
The original laminated shim pack is .010 thick not .006 ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: nella(Pa)
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 11:31am
X2 I always plastic gauge my bearings to .0003. Never spun a bearing or had knock. After I lubricate the sleeve and put on the o rings, I take a round screwdriver and slip it under the o ring and rotate the screwdriver around the outside of the sleeve to be sure that there isn't any twists in the o ring.
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Posted By: Levibridge95
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 3:01pm
| Hey thanks for the help so far. I appreciate it. Can't wait to get my B back to get her. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 9:11am
I think you meant .003, that extra 0 would make it pretty darn tight  ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 9:21am
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 9:36am
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If you have the engine align bored, you don't have to worry about shims. Have the rods resized and your ready to rock n' roll......... Steve@B&B
------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Alvin M
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 9:45am
| That His How I Do All Mine |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 10:22am
That is how rich people do things. They used shims in the first place because they knew everyone was not rich!  I line bored and resized the rods on my C for pulling. Been poor ever since. My old Chevys were shimmed also. |
Posted By: nella(Pa)
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 10:28am
I got one too many zeros in there, it should be .003. Thanks for catching the mistake.
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Posted By: Levibridge95
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 11:26am
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 12:23pm
| The last time I inquired about line boring (a long time ago), I was quoted $350 (or more). I have a bunch of these engines that lived 60+ years with shims. Since they will never work as hard as they did in their earlier life, shims work for me. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 4:03pm
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When I rebuilt Lena, the 35 WC, it had been rebuilt at least twice before and the main bores were not round at all. I put .006 shim in them and used a good Sunnen hone to make them real close to round. Everything cleaned up except maybe an 1/8 inch of the diameter right at the parting line. I had the crank ground and dropped new bearings in and it checked between .0025 and .003 with plastigauge and rolled over fine. I expect it to outlive me. It's only had maybe 100 hours on it since the rebuild . ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2019 at 8:21pm
Well... I'm certain it was a function of economics, but I don't think that representation is really accurate. I would venture an educated guess that they used shims in the first place, because it yielded a result that was appropriate for the combination of manufacturing economics, tooling systems, and consistancy in end results that they felt most appropriate. Align boring is a resource-intensive process, and keep in mind that resources include, but aren't limited to materials, manpower, or machinery... or TIME. In the end, they also kept close to their criteria, the ability for a man, working in a dirt-floor machine shed, with an oil-lantern, the ability to do as much as possible, with the least amount available. Shims DO have their benefits. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 6:06am
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DaveKamp, Your sarcasm meter is defective. After buying an overhaul kit many do not have extra money laying around to put out three to four hundred into line boring, resizing rods or other costly items. When I was into stock car racing with two little ones at home I headed home after stopping at the parts store. I looked over in the seat beside me and spotted a note my wife had given me that morning. It said stop and get two gallon of milk on the way home. I had spent all my cash and had to stop at a local store and charge the milk. That ended my racing dreams. Food and shoes for my little ones instantly became more important than the thrill of turning left in a cloud of dust in front of a grandstand of people hoping I would be taken away on a stretcher. I assume people starting into old tractors have a passion with limited funds as I did. Allis called out the shims as a way to get more life out of the engine. It was also used for that in the 1920's auto engines. All three of my 1920's Chevys have shimmed rods. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 6:23am
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C'mon Dick, racing is one thing. Rebuilding a 4 cylinder Tractor engine is another. The two can't even be comparable! I'm no rich guy by no means, but getting an engine align bored and rods resized and doing it the more "accurate" and upgraded way to me is money in the bank! You make it sound like you gotta' borrow on yer' house to rebuild the engine! When you have limited funds, you SAVE till you have enough to get the job done. This is 2019 not 1920....... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 6:46am
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I have to side with Dick on this one. If I was building an engine for pulling and was planning to turn it a lot more than it was originally designed to run, I would probably line bore it. Most of us that are rebuilding old tractor engines that originally had shims aren't working them really hard. The guys that are still farming are using them to do the "light work" because they have much bigger tractors to do the hard work. Others are using them to mow grass, run a bush hog, or (like me) strictly for a hobby. These engines have lived very long lives with shims and I see no reason to spend a lot of money on an engine that will live longer (with shims) than I will. If a person wants to line bore, it's their $$$. I have better places for mine.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 6:54am
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To me the dividing line is "do you need to have the crank reground?" If you're going to have the crank reground you may as well spend the extra $ and do a first class job. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 7:31am
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I don't know if that's a 100% true Curt. There are a lot of my customer's that still rely on their Tractors to make a living with because they don't want, (or can't afford) to go partners with the bank on a new piece of equipment that they can't even work on anymore! A lot of our customer's I talk with from all around the country (and out of this country) use their Tractors to make a living. Yup, there are a lot like you say to. Hobby guys (like myself) and folks that don't use their older Tractors so hard everyday like when they were new in the 40's n' 50's, but they're out there. I've built a lot of wiring harnesses and rebuilt a lot of electrical components for customer's that still rely on their antique Tractor to do a certain job on their farm... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 7:44am
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At $770 a month, I'll have to go the shim route when I do rebuild, and damn glad I can. ------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 7:44am
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I suppose we could argue this forever! LOL Of the tractors that used shims, I think the WD was the biggest production tractor that is still being used a lot. The U and A might have been bigger, but I don't know of many (any) that are really still working. Not many WD's are doing hard work. They may be pulling wagons and things like that, but I remember when our WD chopped corn and did all the tillage work. Not many of any of the tractors that used shims, are still doing that kind of work. We kind of highjacked his thread arguing about shims.
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Posted By: nella(Pa)
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 8:01am
| How do you check an engine to see if it needs to be line bored? |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 8:20am
The process used to line bore the block in the factory, wouldn't have been any different, with or without the shims. The block would have had the caps bolted up and bored to size either way, so I'm guessing it had to do with someones idea of who and where it might get worked on after a certain amount of wear in the bearings. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 9:18am
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Folks, My uncle did a lot of engine overhauls that he only re-ringed the pistons. Some of the issue was cost, the other was time. These tractors or trucks needed to get back on the road or in the field in a few days. Not 6 months like it took me to get my 45 done. He did comment that it was probably not the best thing to do but it was a quick fix. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 9:35am
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Sooner or later, I'll probably rebuild the engine in my B. It is 68 years old and as far as I can tell, the engine is as from the factory. The last 30 years it has done light duty lawn mowing, but for the first almost 40 years, it lived a rougher life. Money's not an issue, but I'm trying to figure out how I could expect "better" than the almost 70 years the original shimmed bearings have done. Good luck with the rebuild and keep us up to date on the progress! ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 10:45am
It depends on what you're in it for. If you're a collector and you don't do any real heavy work, as built should be good enough. OTOH if you like to do engine rebuilding as a hobby, then it depends on what degree you want to rebuild the engine. Some are happy to re-ring the engine and replace the seals. Some want to do everything including a line bore while throwing in a complete rebuild kit. Whatever trips your trigger. It's the same with those asking electrical questions. Some want to best battery and charging system available. Some are happy with it as it was from the factory. Of course financial resources come into play. How much do you have available for your hobby or machinery investment? I've seen people spend more on vices than I could ever imagine. To each their own. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 3:12pm
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When I get done rebuilding an engine with shims I feel I have it as accurate as it came from the factory. Anyone that wants to take the time to learn and pay attention to details can do the same. I understand that everyone does not have a mold building shop with the tooling and measuring tools. A properly shimmed rod or main bearing is no different than it is after line boring. It is only quicker in 60 years to overhaul with less people to walk you thru the shimming. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I forgot! I found it fun to measure the rods, rod bearings, crankshaft as well as all the parts to find in spec used parts rather than just buy new.    |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 3:21pm
  
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 8:47pm
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I have half a dozen B tractors. Most have "overhauled motors". I have never had a crank turned, or block line bored. My "standard overhaul" is complete disassembly, mike everything, see if I can reuse the bearings with new shimming,, or buy new bearings... I hone the cylinders, new rings, lap the valves... a new guide now and then ... and all new gaskets. I have pushed the limit on cylinder taper and journal "round ness" a few times. You just have to know exactly what your doing, as Dick said.. With a carb overhaul and a good starter and mag, they roll off on 1-2 revolutions of the motor and run great.
OH.. and pull the liners to replace the O-rings and clean the block.. and replace freeze plugs in the head.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: nella(Pa)
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2019 at 4:57am
X2 Good info here and like Dr. Allis said, put in new cam bearings. If you have a bearing driver, that helps a lot. Be sure to get the oil holes lined up in the new bearings to the holes in the block.
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