D19 turbo history
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=161978
Printed Date: 27 Sep 2024 at 10:03am
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Topic: D19 turbo history
Posted By: bp4455
Subject: D19 turbo history
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 12:24pm
| Was the turbo heavily marketed? Did they make a big deal out of it? How did they sell? |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 3:49pm
| The D-19 turbo diesel was the first farm tractor to have a turbocharger from the factory. They ran and performed well. If they were used for heavy load work, they usually didn't run very long and they blew the head gasket. There were some overheating problems and cracked cylinder heads. The wet sleeves wound sink in the block, which helped the head gasket to blow again. After replacing the head gasket multiple times, many were traded off or sent to a scrap yard. |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 4:16pm
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The sound of a D-19 diesel under load working, Is pure sweet music... ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: BillinAlberta
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 4:54pm
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My dad who worked in service for Allis from 1954 to 1995 had a lot of stories. There were lots of warranty claims about D19's .The fuel pumps were cranked up on lots of them. Some would dyno way over spec.Even 100 hp was possible but the power output was short lived. The story of the one guy who had cranked up the pump then worked the piss out of the tractor then it "all of a sudden" lost power.Dad cracked open the oil drain plug and the oil came out like goo.Needless to say the warranty claim was rejected which really choked this farmer .He was influential-the cousin of a prominent politician.The fight over that tractor and the farmers claim that it was defective affected the sales of Allis farm equipment for some years after in Western Canada and gave my dad what would now be called PTSD. It was brutal. I don't know how he carried on and maintained his dignity while being accused of some pretty awful stuff in the media. It was during this period that the service people from the various Ag Machinery companies and provincial government Ag Dept staff formed what would become the Prairie Agricultural Machinery Institute (PAMI). This case with the D19 tractor figured heavily in the founding of that group.Dad became a board advisor in those early days and there was always support for the Allis company from them. John Deere used this negative publicity to their advantage of course and there are still plenty of older guys around who "know" that Allis just sold junk and would not stand behind it. I remember this era well because of the family pain and upheaval that entitled privileged asshole caused. |
Posted By: allisbred
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 6:03pm
| I always enjoy reading others comments on the D19. We have always been Allis— going back to the WC, 45’s, D17’s and through the 100 series which have all been great machines. We had a D19 turbo diesel for a few year’s, ran smooth for short periods when it wasn’t in the shop, I always thought our slightly worked over 45’s had more guts on the pto, 19 had weight but would fall on its face as soon as it had to work any. Had to have been one of the worst tractors of its day for maintenance. On paper looked great, 38’s, 3pt, easy on fuel. Reality was; bad head, hard starting, bad transmission, no guts, poor hydraulics(left handed as well), poor power steering at low rpm and hard to see over in my opinion Neighbor had a gasser they tried to give us for a few hundred dollars with around 500 hours because it was so thirsty and couldn’t get a good trade in back then. He went green for that reason. I just was looking at old pictures mother took when we were kids, many times grinding feed. There was always two people in the pictures with the 19, one with the grinder shoveling and one watching the tractor for leaks or to cut back back the feeding auger when it started to smoke! Lol |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 7:16pm
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Sounds as though Allis learned a lot from the D-19 turbo diesel experience! As in how not to do it?!!? Where they really that bad? ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Marlyn nwia
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 7:18pm
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I recall having coffee where the local dealer had a new, model D-19 on display. He placed a small cardboard box on the drawbar and ran the engine wide open. The little box stayed put! Very impressive!! especially to guys that ran two cylinder John Deeres on a ham mills 
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Posted By: bp4455
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 7:27pm
| How much was the turbo talked about? |
Posted By: omahagreg
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 8:21pm
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Dad and Grandpa farmed with AC near Jansen Nebraska. Their dealer was Wells in Plymouth. The only things I heard Dad say about the 19 diesel was that he liked the 17 diesel MUCH better and that if you idled the 19 for awhile after working it was much better for the engine! ------------- Greg Kroeker 1950 WD with wide front and Freeman trip loader |
Posted By: festus51
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 9:13pm
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We had one for two years. Had to be overhauled in one year. Shut it off to go to lunch would be 90 degree day and had to use either to get it started for the afternoon. Had to use either all the time if you wanted it to start. I like Allis but the D-19 diesel was a POS ------------- We the unwilling Led by the unqualified Doing the impossible for the Ungrateful |
Posted By: GregStremel
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 9:48pm
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We have a D19 diesel..it was our big tractor. It outperformed our D17 with the same implements.. we worked the same gear so it was basically the same load. It was fine. Not a tremendous upgrade, but it was good. We have bigger tractors now. We have an 8070, two 7060s and a 7040. The D19 is mainly used on a grain auger. When we unload at the farm it is on a 10x72. Load out auger is 8x40. We have had at least two head gaskets go bad. I run it. I think if I let it slowly come to operating temperature it would last longer. I try, but sometimes I get anxious. After the latest time, I just use the 7040 with a special pto shaft so I can run it on the 1000 side but at a fast idle for 540 rpm. This works better. My brother does the repair work, and he is very good. But, after $1,000s of dollars, I wish we had purchased a 190 to run the augers. We use the D19 to run the load out auger and pull a trailer for school kids to ride when they come to the farm. The repair bills have been high, but Dad bought it. He is gone but we will keep his tractor running. |
Posted By: Allisplumber
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 10:55pm
| A friend of mine has 2 d19d and they had there problems with the head gaskets till we got the head cut and checked, put ARP head studs in them and problem solved, they have them turned up and use them for tractor pulling all summer with no problems at all , on the dyno the newer of the two is at 130 hp , there was a poor design for the heads , not enough bolts and too far apart and no one ever thinks about putting new head bolts in , once a bolt is toque and stretched it should be replaced, if you put the ARP studs in them they will hold up fine , as long as the sleeves are with in spec height |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 5:51am
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I remember our dealer holding a combine school in 1962. My uncle had just bought a Gleaner A. At the end the A-C blockman talked about the new D-19 diesel with the turbo. He said with 7 main bearings it was the only tractor engine strong enough to take the pressure of a turbo. I guess the top end hadn't started to cause the famous problems yet ! ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Trinity45
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 6:53am
| That has been a problem for many a tractor, they crank them up use them for jobs twice what they should be and then cry when something breaks. I know a guy who has a AC 180 put a turbo on it cranked it up and is pulling a 20' disk with it. So far she is still running but that is not what I want for my 185. I had the mechanic check mine he estimated someone had turned it up to about 100 hp so I had him turn it down to about 85 to 90. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 7:10am
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I would think it would be hard to get 100 hp out of an unmodified 185 just by turn the fuel up. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 7:20am
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BTW I have a D19 gas and other than the weak hydraulics and weak power steering it has been good to me. Used it as my heavy tractor back in the late '80s and early '90s. Makes a good comfortable haying tractor. Has a loader on it now but the clutch is stuck and incentive is low because of the skid loader. When I worked at the Allis dealer in the early '90's, they said lots of problems go away if you let the diesel 19 and also the 17 warm up before using and let it idle at about 1000 rpm while you go do calf chores. IH guys I knew back then said they would put a horse blanket over the engine on early IH diesels after parking the tractor. Also I remember reading service old bulletins on the Diesel D19 and that there were design changes in the later cylinder heads and that those cylinder heads were recommended when problems occurred. So the newer engines must have a better cylinder head. I don't know how to stop the sleeves from sinking. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 7:38am
| Cylinder sleeves sinking is solved by just leaving it in the shed. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 8:01am
Do you agree with Macks opinion on the fire rings being too soft (compounded by the stretching of head bolts) or do you feel like the sleeve flange is too small and there is really no solution other than light use? how do we explain the few that are pulling tractors? on borrowed time?
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 8:20am
| He's probably right on the fire ring thickness/harness thing. But, the flange lip is still too small/narrow regardless. I posted the dimensions on here some time ago as how the 262 engine sleeve lip compared to all the other AC engines and it was pretty sad. As a gas engine, there was never a problem. With the higher compression of a diesel, it becomes a problem. Stick a turbo on that same engine and it is a HUGE problem. |
Posted By: GM Guy
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 3:35pm
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IMO the one issue that affected it had similar outcomes as the 1855 Oliver. No oil cooler. Stuff holds together alot better when the oil is not trying turn to sludge... :) We still have a factory 262 turbo on a C2 Gleaner and it treats us well, dad pulls it out yearly to keep it shined up. I make sure dad does not get cheap on oil, that one gets Mobil Delvac 1300. If it can keep my 6.5L GM pickup diesels from cratering, it can do the same for the ol 262... :) ------------- Gleaner: the properly engineered and built combine. If you need parts for your Gleaner, we are parting out A's through L2's, so we may be able to help. |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 3:37pm
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Does anyone know if the Gleaner CII combine in the 262 Diesel version experienced the same head problems? Or was it designed differently internally? ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 3:40pm
| Same engine. Same design. Never subjected to as many cold starts and hot stops as a tractor engine. Never LUGGED like a tractor engine. Never worked as hard as a tractor engine. Probably not as many problems as a result. |
Posted By: Don(MI)
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 5:26pm
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Ok, thanks just curious. Mine has an actual Engine serial # Aluminum plate on it. We took a CII Diesel 262 engine and dropped it into our '62 D-19 diesel. Not much to change over and figure the CII engine had alot better life than the original D-19D engine ------------- Galatians 5:22-24 "I got a pig at home in a pen and corn to feed him on, All I need is a pretty little girl to feed him when I'm gone!" |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 7:42am
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Wasn't it Kevin TeVelde from up in Wa State having custom sleeves made with a larger diameter flange, then having the block counterbore bored out to match the sleeve? This arrangement along with fire-rings and an MLS head gasket should put an end to head gasket problems. I'd almost think the fire rings would work good even on stock sleeves, as long as the sleeves aren't sunken down too badly. The rings are kinda soft, and forgiving, so they will conform to the irregular sleeve heights. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 7:50am
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Only knew of 2 D19's around growing up. 1 sat in the shed as they had head gasket issues and didn't use it much. Was in great shape. Eventually it was sold to a collector Other one was used for pulling and they changed the head gasket on a regular bases. Now retired to a dusty shop corner ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 9:21am
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I have a D19 gas its been a tough reliable tractor for years.Been here about 50 years. |
Posted By: Kevin in WA
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 9:35am
| Yes Ed, we have had several sets of oversized flange sleeves made at LA Sleeve, the flange is about twice as wide and .020 thousands taller to allow a badly eroded block to be cleaned up. I have installed about 6 sets so far with good results, it still would be nice to find a better quality gasket with better fire rings for a permanent fix for these engines. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 12:48pm
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I get MLS gaskets from SealTec along with their rings. Anyone can deal with them, but for some applications, I've done the leg work and keep some various ones in stock. They need a pattern, and can make any head gasket you want. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 12:56pm
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: tomstractorsandtoys
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 12:57pm
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My grandfather had a brand new one but only kept it one year and got a 190XT. His problem was the depth control. They had a 4 bottom semi mounted plow and when you lowered the plow the front went in first then the back. The problem was the whole plow had to be down before the draft control would work and the front of the plow always went to deep before the draft took hold. Dealer was out several times both spring and fall and could not fix it. The next year made him a great deal on a 190XT,6 bottom reset plow and a 780 chopper. Tom |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 12:03am
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My old '64 D19D is still going strong. Let it warm up and cool down before and after work, never had a problem, and I pull it hard from time to time. The main problem we have with the engine is starting, but if you have good batteries and manifold heater it will start, even below freezing. I've also noticed that a block heater doesn't seem to help much at all, and I think it's because you don't get enough heat up into the head to the energy cells. The rest of the tractor seems bulletproof. PS doesn't compare to hydrostatic but it's adequate. Not much GPM with the hyd, but it's really not a problem unless you have a loader. I have access to a parts 185 with a good engine. If the 262 ever gives me trouble, I may try to shoehorn the 2800 engine in there. If the tractor was to have a 2800 engine, I think I'd rather have it over a 185. I like the manual PD, works just as well as the hyd PD, and less complicated (less to go wrong and when it does it's cheaper to fix). Wouldn't be too hard to convert steering to hydrostatic, I've got a parts F2 that could be a donor for that.
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 5:07am
What kinda heater din you use. I used a external tank type, and it would start w/o the air heater, on the coldest day, w/ 45 mins of preheating. A properly heated D-19 would have 4-5 cats nappin on the hood...  ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 10:29pm
I've got a lower radiator hose heater. It will circulate the warm water, and the block will get warm to the touch, but it doesn't seem like much heat gets up to the head. I'd like to have a freeze plug block heater, but I've yet to find a freeze plug that has enough depth behind it to accept a block heater. Unless it's about 90deg outside, I'll have to use the manifold heater to get mine to start. The colder it is, the longer you have to hold the key.
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 9:58am
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Freeze plug heaters tend to have a smaller element, thus less wattage and less heat, at least from my experience. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 10:29pm
| Sometime in last 6-8 months,someone posted pics of 262 with tank heater. Pulled out of right side middle of block and returned up and over to thermostat hsg. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2019 at 11:54pm
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On my old D17 diesel, I drilled and tapped the rear of the water tube on top of the head and put in an elbow then hung the tank right below it and drew water off the drain plug was far enough back that it heated the engine without opening the thermostat... The one-ninety, I set the heater directly below the drain plug and then had a long hose coming from the thermostat housing down to the inlet of heater. 170 gas has a lower hose heater, seems to do fine. ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 10:21pm
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The first 19's had the cams replaced as the though was to keep the intake open longer to better charge the cylinder - only problem was hard cranking - so they changed them out according to Bruce Derrington an old Ac service mgr. and the still had starting issues. Many D19 17's had the transfer pumps changed out for the later style vane pumps with springs rather than the old carbon blades. Gave better psi on the transfer pump at lower cranking speed. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 11:23pm
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When I was 15 I borrowed a D19 from the dealer in Longmont, CO, S&S Equipment, for our 4-H float in the county fair parade. I remember the owner, can't think of his first name now telling me it didn't have much gas in it and that it liked to drink, even ideling down the street. I borrowed a couple bucks from my Mom and got probably 7 gallons of gas, my Mom asked, "are you sure it uses gasoline?" I pointed out the decal on the tank. I don't know how much gas it used but it still had quite a bit in the tank, or course it only ran for maybe two hours in the parade and back to the dealer on Main Street. When I stopped in a few weeks earlier to see about using a tractor, a local farmer was there with his near new D19 with a broken casting for the lift arms. He was pulling a 3 bottom spinner plow. I believe the family still has that tractor, I need to ask his son. I just realized that was 65 years ago this month! ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 11:18am
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What I found as far as starting is concerned, is you need cranking speed. I bought my D19D from a member on here and when I went to pick it up it was like 10 degrees that morning. It had (2) 12 volt batteries in it. One was shot and the other was half assed when it was fully charged and they were hooked together with lawnmower battery cable. When I hit the key I think it made 1/2 a revolution. Guy hooked on to it with his truck and towed me out on the street in front of his house which is paved. When I got it out on the pavement I had it in gear and I eased the hand clutch back into low range. Once engaged it didnt move 10 feet and it was running. Lanova cell injectors spray in a stream and not a mist like direct injection. Lanova cell engines rely on piston speed to push the air into the cell to get it to swirl to break up the fuel droplets. The faster you crank it over, the more the swirl, and the better the atomization of the fuel and the easier the start. Good batteries, good cables(about the diameter of your thumb) and a good working starter and they should start in cold weather.
------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: 200Tom1
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 11:20am
| Dad bought a used 1 at a consignment auction along with the 5x16 snap coupler plow. He had it 10 or 12 years before he had any motor problems. He used it to pull the machinery the D17 pulled with the exception of the plow. When it finally lost a sleeve, he took it to the local AC dealer for an overhaul. When they put it on the dyno they told dad it was turning out 105 Hp. They turned it back down. He kept it a couple of more years till he bought an XT. He said it wasn't near the tractor after he got it back. I do not know what he did with it. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 11:40pm
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I had no idea you could get close to 100 hp out of a diesel D19. I thought the 262 was pretty much maxed out in stock form. Mine acts like a 60-70 hp tractor, so I assume it's stock, but it's never been on a dyno.
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 9:55am
Thanks for your explanation about these early diesel lanova designs. I’ve linked a video about indirect injections which shows 3 different combustion chamber concepts. Which of the video’s concept closely matches the buda lanova design? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3eK_EvsBE" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3eK_EvsBE |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 9:57am
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We just built a D19 diesel . It had about 65 hp and lots of smoke. We advanced the timing and got it to 80 hp -but it would not crank. We checked all on the pump as to advance and checked injectors which were not perfect but better than most running . It was a balance between HP and timing. We replaced the old carbon blade rear transfer pump with the late style system (and got a memory refresher on pump rotation cam ring) and reset the advance trimmer (late style) and it helped but still no where close to 100 hp with the torque screw that had been backed out. Those indirect inj heads with a stock turbo just will not go much over that 70 hp line with acceptable smoke levels... Nebraska test was 66 hp from memory... ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 10:18am
the one that says air cell
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 6:08pm
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If you look, in this video, you can see the lanova pre-cumbustion chambers, opposite the injectors, just below the air intake manifold. Injector sprays toward the cup, as the intake air charge is being compressed. On these engines timing of everything is critical, and they have a history of camshaft problems... [TUBE]vxCf0EdDnuY[/TUBE] ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 6:03pm
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 8:47am
| How is running an engine without coolant good for it? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 9:15am
| It isn't if you run it too long. A couple of minutes at or near an idle isn't any issue. We run a pulling tractor with twin-turbos with a dry block and dry head. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 9:31am
 ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 9:43am
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I have eyes like that, I wonder if they make corrective glasses for that? ------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |