#2 diesel vs #2 furnace heating oil?
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Topic: #2 diesel vs #2 furnace heating oil?
Posted By: Lonn
Subject: #2 diesel vs #2 furnace heating oil?
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 12:29pm
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Thinking about using heating oil instead of the biodiesel because there is no requirement for #2 heating oil to be blended with biofuel. Pro's..... con's? ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Replies:
Posted By: Mike Plotner
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 12:33pm
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Burn bio diesel. Create demand ------------- 2001 Gleaner R42, 1978 7060, 1977 7000, 1966 190 XT, 1966 D-17 Series IV and 1952 WD and more keep my farm running! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 1:34pm
Edit..... I think I just got your joke  ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Mike Plotner wrote:Posted By: Mike Plotner
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 5:21pm
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I don't get guys that moan about low soybean/corn prices and complain about using bio-diesel/Ethonal. I'd rather payless to run a tractor while also using up our product ------------- 2001 Gleaner R42, 1978 7060, 1977 7000, 1966 190 XT, 1966 D-17 Series IV and 1952 WD and more keep my farm running! |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 5:46pm
| House will smell like a French fry factory, all the neighbors will get the munchies!! |
Posted By: bigal121892
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 5:58pm
I agree.
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Posted By: Tim NH
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 6:08pm
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I was told by oil delivery man, that diesel fuel is refined a little more than #2 heating oil. Tim ------------- 1950 WD 1959 D14 1955 WD45 1976 7000 B 207 |
Posted By: Boss Man
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 7:31pm
| Don't think the heating oil has the additives to protect your pump and injectors from damage |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 7:32pm
| Bio is fine while using it. That's all I burn in the road tractor(partly because that's all I can buy on the road). It's not worth a crap to set for 6 months in a tractor fuel sysem from the old days. Maybe Mike is running modern electric engines. I pay extra for non bio on the farm. Maybe it's not extra at all in the end. |
Posted By: 200Tom1
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 8:00pm
| Lon, I owned a farm fuel business for years. There is a great difference between #2 diesel and fuel oil. You should be using a premium #2 diesel in everything on the farm. Premium #2 diesel has a higher cetain rating than #2 fuel oil. #2 fuel oil has less additives than #2 truck stop fuel. There is no anti algecide in #2 fuel oil or #2 truck stop diesel. There are no lubricating additives in #2 fuel oil, something you need for today's close tolerances in pumps and injectors. If you decide to use #2 fuel oil you will see more black smoke going up the pipe. Black smoke is unburned fuel. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 8:19pm
Back when I was hauling fuel from the tank farms to delivery points, the Diesel fuel, heating oil and off road diesel were loaded from the same pipe. If it was premium diesel The metering system would inject an additive at the correct rate. For non taxable use (heating oil or off road diesel) the system would inject RED dye. That is the only difference for full petroleum fuel oils. Any Bio diesel blends were either tank blended or sometimes the system would do it. ------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: wade89
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 9:24pm
| I know the bio diesel left alot of scummy crap in the bottom of a D17D tank and Dads 922b cat loader. I would only run heating oil in the old equipment. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 10:07pm
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 4:12am
| I never had such algae problems in my life as when I was running bio diesel in my remote generators. I had to switch to what the dealer called "stove oil" in order to get a fuel that didn't contain any bio products. In a nutshell: No problems at all were encountered after making the switch. None in the five years I witnessed after making the switch. I'll have to ask if they've encountered any problems the next time I call my old workplace for my usual updates. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 6:00am
| I never heard of "truck stop fuel" before. I thought fuel from truck stops was premium diesel. Has anyone else heard of truck stop fuel ? |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 6:06am
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I haven't ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Play Farmer
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 8:37am
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When we buy fuel oil for our house the ticket says "#2 Diesel fuel delivered as #2 Heating oil". I'd say in our case they're the same. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 9:21am
“Truck stop fuel” is generic lowest cost fuel, without any additives of any kind. Many truck stops have this and also have a dedicated pump for premium diesel. Back when fuel was less than $1 a gallon, I found the 2-3 cents a gallon extra that Southern States charged at the time for their premium diesel, restulted in increased fuel miles that saved money overall. ------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: Mike Plotner
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 9:23am
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No one should be forced to run anything, but I'm willing to bet you'd complain about the cost of straight petroleum diesel. And they guys saying I run new engines, I don't, I have a 7060, 7000, One-Ninety, 4620 and a R42. Changing filters every year and maybe adding some additive is still cheaper than buying non biodiesel firbthe amount of gallons I burn all year. Plus, I even run ethonal occasionally in my '82 F-350 and '83 LTD, along with my gas tractors
------------- 2001 Gleaner R42, 1978 7060, 1977 7000, 1966 190 XT, 1966 D-17 Series IV and 1952 WD and more keep my farm running! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 10:30am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Play Farmer
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 10:45am
You're forced to because we're trying to "save the environment". It doesn't matter there is basically a zero net gain on emissions, and a negative net by some studies, the greenies feel better. With that said, its June 15th, it was in the 40s last night, the furnace is currently running and we've been running about 15-20 degrees below normal. If this is the effect of curing "Global warming" (money grabbing hoax) I think we've gone far enough. Let's bring back some warming soon please!  Might be time to move this one to the Politics section. 
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Posted By: Mike Plotner
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 12:14pm
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I don't care about emissions, I'd like to have a use for the millions of tons of soybeans we grow every year. My fuel supplier adds algecide to the blend to prevent it. I also put many hours on my tractors without issues directly from biodiesel use ------------- 2001 Gleaner R42, 1978 7060, 1977 7000, 1966 190 XT, 1966 D-17 Series IV and 1952 WD and more keep my farm running! |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 2:42pm
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I think a lot depends on your location, supplier, addatives, and humidity/ weather for YOUR FUEL............ I have been running Ethanol in EVERYTHING for 30 years and never ONE PROBLEM... don't know why.... others have had problems........ but its a fact for me. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 3:59pm
It has a lot to do with the fuel distribution network. I've had nothing but issues with ethanol. Plus the biggest retailer around here has a stranglehold on non ethanol "rec" gas and breaks it off in us. You have to buy bulk from the distributor and that's nit practical for a handful of small gas engines.
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 5:52pm
| If all bio diesel was made from soybeans I might consider it.But it's not and there's where the trouble starts. Glad Mike can get soy based bio. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 11:20pm
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I've been running bio in my D17D since I got it. All bio diesel you buy is not created equal though. I only get my tractor fuel from Heartland Co Op. Their bio is only blended with soy oil. The same with Key Co Op here in central Iowa. Elsewhere like convenience stores and truck stops there's no telling what it is. Bio made with animal fat is poor quality in my experience and nearly impossible to keep from gelling in cold weather. I can say if you have either a Heartland or a Key co op, they are good quality fuel. The city of Newton IA Fire and Rescue dept buys their fuel at Key. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: ebowman
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 8:27am
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I believe we have seen the end in sight..... We change corn so its not fit to be edible by humans and livestock, We are more worried about our gas tanks than our bellies, The farmer only cares about his wallet, The farmer is still "poor", But in reality...... The government will bail him out when he can't pay his bills or has a bad year, And he still gets a brand new pickup truck every couple years!!! Roundup is the greatest thing since sliced bread ( not harmful) until.... a foreign company buys them out and now IT WILL KILL YOU!! I only buy ethanol free gas, if I could buy non bio fuel I would!! ------------- WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler |
Posted By: WNYBill
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 9:18am
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The "Greens" are winning. Here in NYS home heating oil is more expensive than over the road diesel in Ohio or anyplace further south. The Greenies don't care, most don't know where it comes from or what it is!!!!!! Keep on electing Progressive damn fools! Just look at the cities and states controled by the Democrats. The progressive democrats want to control us all and they are winning. WAKE UP AMERICA
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 9:40am
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I see New York is mandating some crazy amount of biofuel IN YOUR HEATING OIL Bill. In like 15 years it will be......... can't remember..... 35%? Good luck with that. Right now in MN from April 14 through September 30 20% bio is required in diesel fuel....... I think they any ag based product except palm oil. For some reason palm oil doesn't count. I'm pretty sure ethanol is mandated to be corn based only and I think that is 15% now. So I looked up the law..... if biofuel is so trouble free then why does the law have Generators in Nuke plants as exempt from using any biofuels. "motors located at an electric generating plant regulated by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission" exempt. Also exempt in Minnesota..... the Coast Guard and yes because of Lake Superior Minnesota does have Coast Guard ships on it's shores. Hmmmmmm why are they exempt? Do tell, batman. They must really hate farmers. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Joe(OH)
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 11:16am
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I farm and raise corn and soybeans. But I don't understand why that means that we should support inferior fuel. If we need to burn our crop to increase prices maybe the American farmer, myself included, needs to learn to diversify our crop production. Saying that we need to create bio diesel from soybeans to create a demand because of over production just doesn't make sense to me. "This is an easy one, economically. Biodiesel is very expensive, relative to petroleum diesel," says Scott Irwin, an economist at the University of Illinois, who follows biofuel markets closely. He calculates that the extra cost for biodiesel comes to about $1.80 per gallon right now, meaning that the biofuel law is costing Americans about $5.4 billion a year. http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/01/16/577649838/turning-soybeans-into-diesel-fuel-is-costing-us-billions" rel="nofollow - http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/01/16/577649838/turning-soybeans-into-diesel-fuel-is-costing-us-billions As far as ethanol gas goes I have not had a good experience with ethanol. If ethanol is so great why isn't it used in aviation? And to top it off ethanol is not cost effect to create without the government propping it up. http://www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/70-percent-more-energy-required-make-ethanol-actually-ethanol-cornell" rel="nofollow - http://www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/70-percent-more-energy-required-make-ethanol-actually-ethanol-cornell ------------- Life is simpler when you plow around the stump. |
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 11:42am
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 12:13pm
| Seems to me ,if it can't make it on own,it shouldn't make it....any product!! |
Posted By: TimCNY
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 2:51pm
| You oughta see my new all-electric tractor! Well actually it's for my twin grandsons lol... they're only 5. But Gramps is teaching them to love the old ways. Maybe at least 2 kids won't grow up filled with BS. Hey, I can hope! |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 2:57pm
The next thing you know, we'll be talking about ending farm subsidies/price supports... ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 3:00pm
Like I said..... |
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 4:46pm
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Posted By: ebowman
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 9:07am
We should be.... Find a niche market and run with it. Why would you want to be in a market that doesn't make money? Either your income is to low or your expenses are too high. That's for you to figure out!! ------------- WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 1:04pm
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At any rate it sounds like heating oil doesn't have enough additives to be safe so I guess I'll look at getting a tank on a trailer and haul it from Iowa since Iowa fuel distributors can't legally deliver it to me or so I'm told. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 2:23pm
You'll love this but there are DOT regs on just how big your transport tank can be and Ag is not exempt.
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 2:45pm
So.....back in the 70's and 80's, when dad would put a 250 gallon tank of gasoline in the back of the pickup to go on his snowmobiling camp out trip, aaaannnnd drip feed it into the truck gas tank.......that was probably illegal, huh? He had a snowmobile wedged in there too, and of course pulling the camp trailer. Never got "caught".
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 3:33pm
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 3:40pm
Lonn, Russia is a long way from Iowa.  ------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |
Posted By: chaskaduo
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 3:42pm
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Ross you got it, them subsidies are to fuel all the overpaid middle do nothing but tack on cost guys.
IMAO ------------- 1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 3:50pm
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 3:54pm
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I suppose now that the Russia fiasco has been thoroughly debunked by most sane people, I could change my given location back to Minnesota...................... It's a long flight though and my arms get tired faster than they used to. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 4:14pm
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 4:29pm
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115 for Gas, 119 for Diesel, still in effect as these are the limiters: https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/harvesting/what-you-need-to-know-about-transporting-diesel" rel="nofollow - https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/harvesting/what-you-need-to-know-about-transporting-diesel Found the Why on different gallons, fuel weight, https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_043004.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_043004.pdf If Over 115 gal Gas or 119 gal Diesel have to have placards and if the machine is placarded then also requires HAZMAT license to haul. EVEN if your Own, that from a bud that does this for a living. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 8:14pm
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I read your first link and as I read it a farmer is exempt up to 1000 gal so no HAZMAT sticker and no special license up to 150 mile radius from home farm. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: wayne IA
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 2:58am
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On hauling fuel, for placarding the hazmat quantity is 1000 pounds. If you are hauling 1000 pounds or less of fuel (doesn't specify jet fuel, diesel, gas, etc.) you don't need any hazmat placards for it. If you go over 1000 pounds then you need all the DOT hazmat requirements. Had a local guy that owned 3 gas stations and would have all the fuel delivered into one and then he would use an enclosed trailer with tanks inside to pump it out of the one station and haul the fuel to another. He got busted by the DOT and is out of business now. As for the lubrication of the fuel oil, here is a link to a site I found to let you know what you can add for best lubrication gains. Fuel oil would probably be the same as the no additive diesel for my best guess for base lubrication since it is for a furnace. http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTechnicalManuals/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 6:50am
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From Minnesota DOT..... For some reason I was unable to change to a larger font on what I copied and pasted. Fueling Tanks Transporting Diesel FuelBulk Fueling Tanks (Cargo Tanks) - Diesel Fuel•Non-specification cargo tanks are authorized, tank must provide strong, leak-free containment;•Class 3 placards and ID # 1993 marking required on all four sides; •Hazmat shipping papers and emergency information offered and carried; and•Vehicle is a commercial motor vehicle, the driver needs a CDL with hazmat and tanker endorsements; Exception: A farmer with a Minnesota driver’s license, does not need a CDL or endorsements. Farmers, operating within Minnesota, transporting fuel for use on their own farm, in tanks of less than 1,500gallons capacity, are not required to carry hazardous materials shipping papers ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: wayne IA
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 7:02am
| I don't know off hand if Iowa has an exception like that for farm use (I don't have the need to haul a large quantity of fuel so never checked). The 1000 pounds is the DOT set limit without placards. Each state will make exceptions, but when you cross state lines that also goes out the window. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 7:10am
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That is the question. I have to cross the state line to get the fuel I want. It's only a 1/4 mile from the border to the fuel station but still. But I wouldn't be the only one doing this exact thing at that exact station. Some farmers have been doing this for a while in my area. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 7:23am
| Lonn, I read the first link in dave's post also. Yes, it says you're exempt for the volume, but only directly from your farm to the field and back, not even a side trip to the repair shop, and only on local roads. Wouldn't think you could go get it under that wording. |
Posted By: wayne IA
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 7:25am
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I found an article that stated that Iowa will waive CDL requirements for farmers if you are operating in your own state (IA drivers license in IA). I copied the exception below the statute is: §383.3(d)(1)
(d)Exception for farmers, firefighters, emergency response vehicle drivers, and drivers removing snow and ice. A https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - State may, at its discretion, exempt individuals identified in paragraphs (d)(1), (d)(2), and (d)(3) of this section from the requirements of this part. The use of this waiver is limited to the https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - driver 's home https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - State unless there is a reciprocity agreement with adjoining States. (1) https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - Operators of a farm https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - vehicle which is: (i) Controlled and https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - operated by a https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - farmer , including operation by https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - employees or family members; (ii) Used to transport either agricultural products, farm machinery, farm supplies, or both to or from a farm; (iii) Not used in the operations of a https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - for-hire motor carrier , except for an https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - exempt motor carrier as defined in https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/390.5" rel="nofollow - § 390.5 of this subchapter; and (iv) Used within 241 kilometers (150 miles) of the https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/383.3" rel="nofollow - farmer 's farm. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 8:02am
https://www.dot.state.mn.us/cvo/factsheets/FuelTanks.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.dot.state.mn.us/cvo/factsheets/FuelTanks.pdf I know one thing, I ain't gonna ask any so-called authority. I learned a long time ago they say no first to cover their back side because they usually don't know the law themselves. Once a so-called authority says no it nearly takes an act of Congress to get them to change their mind no matter what proof you bring to show they were wrong. Case in point is my neighbor who wanted to repair field tile in his field and the so-called authority said he couldn't because he (the government) had declared it a non-farmable wetland a few years earlier. It was tiled prior to 1984 and had been farmed all these years. When showed evidence he started to make other accusations about unauthorized cleaning out of a waterway the farmer had built himself. It had filled with silt and the neighbor had just cleaned it out. Anyhow he operates a sandpit too and figured he had better eave it alone because he was scared the s0-called authority would get MSHA on him and they would .......... well it's a long story and these guys are not above taking revenge. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |