Generators & solid state regulators
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Topic: Generators & solid state regulators
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Subject: Generators & solid state regulators
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 10:59am
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It turns out, there's a couple of regulator options if the desire is to keep the generator AND get higher reliability/less maintenance. On the little generators like the AC B uses, when that old mechanical cut-out dies or acts up, the street rod boys have come up with a nifty "diode in a can" that serves the same function but with no moving parts and can be put right on top of the genny. One site I was on yesterday had them listed for $18, others range from $29-$49. That doesn't address the problem that there isn't a true regulator in the circuit. Again, the Ford street boys have one the say is a cut-out AND a voltage & current regulator. There are also alternators stuffed into generators to make them look "genuine". About $500 dollars. Now, on to the bigger generators - the ones with 3-coil regulators. Delco was a big supplier to the small aircraft industry, with ones providing up to 50 amp output. Those fly-boys had their troubles with mechanical regulators too, and at least two companies - Lamar and Zeftronics made/makes solid state regulators. The Zeftronics unit is still around and it's $139. One thing I can tell you, is if it's FAA approved, its tougher than whale snot. http://www.zeftronics.com/ Then, there's the one-man shop in New Hampshire. He makes a superb regulator. You send him a regulator (working or non-working) he pulls out the coils, inserts his board and buttons it up & sends it back to you. That's $90 plus 6 bucks shipping. One year warranty. I've looked the board over, and it's a quality design. Bonus, he does 6 or 12 volt, negative or positive ground, A circuit (What Allis uses) or B circuit (Ford and such). It's Wilton Auto Electric, Bob Jeffers Email: bob@wiltonae.com web: www.wiltonae.com It I were putting a tractor together fresh, with rebuilt generator and wiring, this would be the way I'd go. The Wells brand mechanical regulators at parts stores are cheap - and junk. The Delco mechanical cost 2-3 times more, and the one with screw adjustable coils is rare as hens teeth. I'm not knocking the Delco mechanicals - set up right they will last years - decades if the sun shines every day and the creek don't rise. But they can and do get moisture on the contacts, the contacts do pit over time, the adjustment does chqnge on its own as other components wear, etc, etc. |
Replies:
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 11:12am
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I know for motorcycles there are solid state regulators also made to do away with the old point systens used on the Lucas generators / regulators used on pre altenator British bikes ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: BrettPhillips
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 11:14am
| I have been "planning" to send a regulator to Mr Jeffers for over a year now, and I am once again "almost ready". Spare change like that doesn't grow on trees for me any more, but I am sure it will be a worthwhile upgrade to what I consider the weakest link in a 6 volt electrical system. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 11:23am
Ah, and that brings up another option for the "little" generators like on the "B". Accel and a couple of others make solid state regulators for the big Harley and American V-Twins. I haven't done it yet, BUT: Harley used a Delco, it was an "A Circuit" like Allis uses, and various models produced 10-20 amp, also in line with Allis. The really good part is, if true - Accel says the have a unit for ALL Harley models - so 6V may be an option with them. Considering that a flaky regulator will quickly cook or sulfate a battery - the extra up front cost - plus longevity gets paid back fairly quickly. |
Coke-in-MN wrote:Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 11:23am
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The voltage tolerance with the magnetic regulators is poorer than makes for good battery life. In that era SAE standards allowed a charging voltage to vary from 13.5 to 15.5 or 16 volts. Which meant some batteries were never fully charged, and some were always overcharged and needing water. Long about 1968 while on active duty, I swapped a 12 volt VW engine to a 6 volt bug and couldn't change the generator because of mechanical differences, so I built a solid state regulator with a diode for cut out. In that bug I had both a voltmeter and ammeter (lab quality with remote shunt for the ammeter) that read battery voltage, not some voltage elsewhere in the wiring harness. The old mechanical cutout drew about 8 amps to the generator before it cut out. The diode drew none, so the battery stayed charged fully, and I accidentally put in some temperature compensation so from 7.1 volts at about 70 degrees the charging voltage rose a little going to lower temperature which was good for the battery. The battery that was in there when I made the swap lasted a couple more years, then the next battery (I cheated, picked the latest date code at Sears that fit) lasted 6 years. I've built a couple more solid state regulators since then and they have worked fine, one is on a steam turbine on the Chinese locomotive at the Boone and Scenic Valley RR. My circuits have not been consistent either building them about a decade apart. I have found that some of the aftermarket alternator regulators that look like mechanical regulators have a circuit board inside, but they don't say so on the box or the can. They seem intolerant of wrong connections though. Besides having the possibility of working better, the modern IC based regulator has to be a whole lot cheaper to build than the magnetic regulator ever was, likely costs only $5 in parts in small quantities, $2 plus the case in manufacturing quantities. But the big diode for the generator cutout will add to those costs, because the generator needs that while the alternator's rectifiers serve that function. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 11:58am
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Cool story, Gerald! While not for an A- or B-circuit, I was faced with an unobtanium circumstance with a Suzuki GN-400 motorcycle that I'd converted to a lightweight cafe-racer used for emergency transportation in my service truck. It's a kick-start single, had a 6v weenie-battery to make the lights and horn work, but the reg was fried, battery long gone, and I wasn't on a $300 replacement budget... so I made a replacement 'shunt' regulator (solid state), set it up for 13.8v, and changed the head and taillights to 12v (a GL1000 headlamp bucket looks pretty cool on that little thumper), pitched the turn signals, and called it good. Kick it hard, rev engine, got 12v, and that's that. My D17 seems to be charging awfully high, and it's a worker, so it'll get the solid-state kit. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 12:30pm
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Dave, I'd be interested in a kit for my CA. It has a 12V generator from a D17. You'd think solid state generator regulators would be easier to come by, especially since like someone else said cheaper/easier to make. My Oliver and D17D both have functioning O.E. Delco regulators that seem to be working fine at this time. The replacements sold by places like Valu-Bilt are junk in my opinion. Last I knew, Borg Warner was still making a quality replacement regulator. Delco still does? ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 5:57pm
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Maybe some day I'll post the circuit of my steam turbine regulator. It would work with a negative ground generator where the field is connected to the positive output terminal and the regulator grounds the field for maximum output. And a variation on a circuit I published last week in the proceedings of the Central States VHF Conference (met in St Louis last weekend) in an article about Power Amplifier Protection would work when the field is permanently grounded. Though that circuit takes two MOSFETs and a little IC, plus a couple zener diodes to protect the MOSFETs and would need a big diode to protect the main FET from the inductive kick of the field coil. As a simple regulator for a DC supply the circuit has been tested. It has possibilities anyway. Gerald J. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 7:01pm
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Gerald, When using a MOSFET or IGBT in a PWM circuit, seems to me it would be simple to lead the gate(s) with a schottky to prevent shorting failures. I had started down the road of enlightenment for regulator design - when I realized that someone, somewhere had already faced the issue sooner. The PWM part I was satisfied with - it was fault tolerance I wanted to build in when I stopped. |
Posted By: mooboy
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 7:33pm
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Are air cooled VW Beetles with generators A or B circuit? I do know the Bosch makes a solid state regulator for the VW generator. I believe it is made in Mexico, about $40. Considered trying one for an old inboard/outboard boat I own, bet switched to alternator instead. Below is a website with info. http://hillmanimages.com/912/voltage_regulator.html |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 7:41pm
Nope - its a B Circuit - its for VDub years 1967-73-74. No reason it wouldn't work well for Ford and others using Autolite generators though. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2010 at 9:11pm
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In my slow speed analog MOSFET regulator circuits, I protect the gate insulation of a normal level MOSFET with a 12 or 15 volt zener diode, cathode to gate, anode to source for a N type, opposite for a P type. The normal level MOSFET can only stand 20 volts gate to source, then it breaks down the insulation and wrecks the FET. But it only takes 8 to 10 volts gate voltage to saturate the MOSFET with the source to drain showing .02 volts drop typically. Any more gate drive doesn't improve the saturated voltage drop. Recently a fellow tried my new circuit (uses a P type MOSFET for the pass transistor) and didn't understand that requirement though I told him repeatedly in a 42 volt solar regulator/switch and every time he put -42 volts on the gate with respect to source, his MOSFET shorted. There is quite a bit of gate capacitance and part of it is coupled to the drain with its wide swings so it takes a small value resistor gate to source to turn the MOSFET off rapidly. As for the VW regulator, it was 1969 when I built that one using bipolar transistors. I don't remember the circuit details any more. My second one was for a Pinto wagon alternator, probably about 1977 and it used a UA723 regulator chip and a transistor. My modern regulators use a TL431C for the regulation and MOSFETs to interface to the power supply or generator or alternator field. The Delco alternator S-10 with internal regulator that I put on my 4020 came from the local auto electric shop, custom built with the proper width pulley and to make it work easier the smallest available diameter pulley. Still takes about 1600 engine rpm to start charging then it charges down to 450 rpm idle. I added an ammeter (using #10 silicone and fiberglass insulated wire to handle engine temperatures and because I had a roll) so I can tell what its doing. The generator and regulator bounced the ammeter from peg to peg so I couldn't tell what it was doing. The alternator just charges as needed and tapers properly. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 12:58am
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John- I don't think I'd feel comfortable PWM'ing the gen field... there's lots of Xl there, and quite a bit of variability from CEMF... it'd be bangin' on the protective diodes like a screen-door in a windstorm, and the commutator would probably wind up lookin' like someone welded on it with a coathanger... Gerald's using the classic linear pass arrangement. My Zuki reg was a shunt (like what you'd use on a solar cell), and this would be the functional equivalent of A vs. B setup. I used a 7812, with a trio of 1N2007's forward-biased to the ground pin to 'fool' it up 1.8v... I imagine that with an appropriate feedback plan, one could drive a 2n3055 to either pass or shunt the field for proper regulation... they're not as power-capable as a MOSFET, but pretty robust and easy to mount. Gerald - 73 de kw0d |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 5:46am
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Gerald & Dave, Because I am a lazy person intellectually, I went the path of approximating what a mechanical regulator does. I viewed it as a combination chopper/DC-DC design, operating between 100-400hz (not khz). More than one source (three if you count my eyes) confirms this. Because of this, a mechanical regulator is not required to sink any current, which allows the contacts to live. The single biggest issue in regulator design at the 20 amp & higher is current limiting to protect the generator. It's output is fairly linear until the ferrous elements reach saturation. Who doesn't like the 2n3055 and the 555? So that's what I started with - but since I was shooting for 1 device to provide voltage AND current protection - the 2n3055 came up short. An IGBT gets around most issues of shorts, spikes. That's what Toyota uses to feed/control the Prius motor/generator. Anyways (whew) mechanical generators sink very little current, and that's what I was hoping to do. Regardless, someone has done all the hard work - and I'm always in favor of that. Hey post yer circuits - I'm sure they'd be novel and educational. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 6:37am
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A few random ramblings on your subject
I just converted our 220 from a replacement 10SI alternator back to the original style 10DN so I could get my tach working again (mechanical drive) and got one of the solid state regulators you spoke about and it works great so far but I have an NOS mechanical hid away somewhere.
I also agree with your accessment of the current crop of mechanical regulators, pure unadulerated trash, a person could better control his battery charging by hand with a ground wire attached to the field, LOL. I find myself searching the junk boxes at shows and stocking up on Delcos and Autolites. Find nothing wrong with the vast majority of them that a quick point cleaning and adjust doesnt fix.
I was given an education on these old charging systems by a knowledgable person when I was at a very impressionable age. Not a science class, I hardly know at HZ from an ohm, but pratical instruction on repair and maintainance. For those who are less fortunnate than me the charging and starting sections of a 1960s or 70s Chiltons or Motors repair manaul is a nice read and will save you grief down the road. My referance manual is a Motors 1968 and includes those new fangeled alternators, LOL.
The systems were never as reliable as our current crop thus every town with more than one stop light had a busy auto electric shop. The current crop of junk parts and pieces being imported to repair them has done reliability no justice either. The average person is no doubt better off with something else charging his battery I think? thus the market for one wire alternators.
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Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 6:48am
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Butch, AMEN! There's a web site run by a fella who's passion is scanning every darned Chebby manual he can get his hands on. I pulled down the complete Delco set covering generators, starters, distributors and coils. http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/electrical/49dr324/index.htm - http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/electrical/49dr324/index.htm For those who find it difficult to use/save the files to their computer, I can bundle them up in a zip file and e-mail them. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 10:28am
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I used to go to the big Iowa book fair every year. One year I found Delco books on alternators and generators and their regulators. Its not new, just barely covers the 10SI with external regulators. But it has really good data for what's covered. I loaned out the generator book and its gone missing. I've had to quit going to the book fairs, I've run out of room and bought a house last November, maybe I'll get finished moving in August. Books are a big part of the move, along with a warehouse of electronic parts. Yes the switching regulator is a valid concept, as said, the magnetic regulator works that way. I built a very efficient 4 KV supply for a battery bug zapper for clients once, using two cmos 556 (double 555) to do the pulsing and the sampling, and the resting when the high side capacitor was discharged. I used a MOSFET driven by the 556 output. Worked great, would zap bugs regularly and run a week on a 1 ampere hour 12 volt gell cell. But for my rotating machinery regulators, I've always built linear regulators, the power saved by switching wasn't much, but the radio noise of the linear regulator is tiny, and I can test with a meter or two, don't need a scope. Today there probably are half a dozen switching chips configured just for alternator voltage regulators (where one side of the field is grounded) made by the 100 million that just need a package to hook to the generator or alternator and that have adjustable voltage so they could work at 6, 12, 24, or 32 volts as desired. When the 2N3055 won't survive, a 2N3772 often will. But like the UA723, these are vintage parts, though so popular from being good as well as cheap that they will be around a long time. I like MOSFETs for the power elements, because they take no current to drive (except for transients and my gate discharge resistor) and their saturated voltage is very small, which is good in a switching regulator too. My regulators have not included current limiting. Probably a design flaw, but so far that lack has not caused smoke. Someone grumbled about circuit protection, the 140 amp alternator in my '98 F150 has fuses between the alternator and the battery and between the alternator and all loads but the starter. Many such fuses are hidden as small wires for accessory circuits leaving the battery. When I had an alternator go bad on a trip, the Ford garage was careful to put the battery on a charger while changing the alternator so that the new alternator wouldn't be fried instantly from the run down battery. Hint that the alternator doesn't have current limiting. Probably sign of a universal design fault that doesn't cause trouble often. I haven't used an IGBT devices, probably should. Battery charging sure has come a long way from the days of manual control with the light switch or running the lights in the daytime to absorb the excess charging current from the self regulated 3 brush generator. And battery life has improved a great deal in the process. That chevy manual page is sure a gold mine of data. Gerald J. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 12:35pm
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Battery chargers have come a long way too. For years, from childhood on, I kept a charger that used a rectifier that screwed into a lamp base, wire clipped on top, two large black painted wooden knobs to set amperage and how many six volt batteries were strung onto it. And it always ALWAYS would bite me when I handled it - so had to unplug it before doing anything. But it always worked. Sadly, I have moved too many times and cannot remember its fate. Delco seems to think little generators don't need current limiting, big generators do. That's the only criteria I have to go on. A 2n3055 class transistor would easily handle the switching rates a generator needs - as per Delco - range was 100 to 400 hz. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 1:55pm
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That glass rectifier probably had 50 volts drop, a "modern" Edison effect bulb, nothing more than a tungsten lamp filament and a plate. So for half a dozen 6 volt lamps it probably put out 120 volts unloaded and would sure bite. Lots of little Delcos had three brushes and the armature reaction from the current in the third brush countered the magnetic field from the regular field windings to act as a current limiter. Shifting the brushes away from neutral probably did some of that too. And it could be that the armature resistance in the small generator made a decent current limiter though contributing much heat to the winding to reduce its longevity. On my 4020 with S-10 alternator, a few feet of #10 with voltage sensing at the alternator limits current to about 35 amps peak, even though the alternator will do more amps. Gerald J. |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 3:35pm
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You are right - that's exactly what it was. The original rectifier died after 30-40 years, I got a metal-shelled replacement - could no longer see the glow from the house coming from the equipment shed (I was always "fixing" dead batteries the neighbors gave me). Gerald, you ought to lend your talent to a new & improved design. I just discovered this device by National called a LM5118 & will tinker with a 1/2 dozen or so (how many I fry generally). I tend to stay in Dave's Kamp - simple is good, simpler is better. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 12:37pm
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All this electronics talk is very interesting. Takes me back to when I took electronics in high school... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 1:37pm
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Shoot, Brian... we're gonna hafta build one using a 6L6 and an 813... |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 4:53pm
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I'd be interested in a pile of parts and a schematic. I remember transistors being able to control a larger current through the collector and emitter by switching the base (smaller current). I guess all we need is a large enough transistor to handle the switching, a control that changes the on off time of the transistor in relation to the voltage level, and maybe a zener diode, or at least some sort of clamping diode to disipate the voltage spike created from a collapsing magnetic field to protect the transistor right? A big diode would be all that's needed for the cutout relay. How am I doing so far?
I made a few interesting things back then. One of the things I made was an Audio Signal Restoration Unit. It did pretty much what the Dolby system on better stereo equipment did back then but was adjustable to target certain frequencies. I also made a bread board AM radio, a touch light switch, and a strobe light. I remember there being an SCR in the light switch that was fragile. A large static discharge was all it took to fry one. The teacher built a NiCad battery "Zapper" as he called it. He said what happens to NiCads is over time they build up internal shorts, or memory, that eventually makes them useless. The Zapper sent a brief high voltage shot across the battery to burn away those "shorts". A few zaps would return most batteries back to almost new. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 6:38pm
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One transmitter I worked on at Collins used a pair of 4CV100,000C for the final. They'd work as regulators, but the filament power would be more than the tractor could supply. Maybe a 304TL would do, it was designed as a high current pulse modulator for WW2 radars. I looked at the LM5118, my first reaction is that its probably overkill, I'd think only using it in bucking mode setting the clock frequency to a few hundred Hz and using the field coil on the alternator for the inductance. Might have to drive it from the external clock input to get it that slow. Since one side of the field coil of the alternator is usually grounded you couldn't get to boost mode with that for the switching inductor. But if you used the typical few hundred kilohertz switching frequency and the small inductor it needs, then you could use boost mode probably only for starting the charge when the engine is first started. You'd drive the field coil with the output, but sample the battery voltage rather than the regulator's output voltage. What that would do for the loop stability will take experiment and probably slowing the transient response by a factor of 100 or 1000 or more to keep things from oscillating. In my TL431C plus FET regulators I had to put a feedback capacitor around the TL431C to keep it from being faster than the power MOSFETs then I put a big capacitor (6000 mfd) on the regulator output to supply faster load changes, with a 10 mf tantalum for faster load changes and a 0.1 monolythic for the really fast load changes. With those I can't see load changes with my 200 MHz scope. Probably over kill and then some. Brian, you are right generally, though I just used a big diode in parallel with the field to handle the inductive kick. It has to be rated to carry the maximum field current. You could use a 555 for switching clock and as a voltage comparitor. I did that once in a computer power supply that was a preregulator so it didn't need precise voltage and I ran it open loop. I got plus and minus 15 volts from a 9 cell gel cell battery that ran 21 volts when charging and 17.5 under load. That computer ran 18 years with only 40 hours down time total. Most of the down time came from a power supply failure where wire got pulled loose under the chassis. I had to replace the batteries once without powering it down. You might want to use a dual 555 called a 556 so you can clock and compare easily at the same time. I like the TL431C for that task because it has a built in reference. Its sold as a programmable zener diode, but its really an open collector op amp supplied through that open collector. With that internal reference it compares to the "control" input. When the voltage on the control input exceeds 2.500 volts it pulls down on the output. It acts like a zener diode rated at 2.500 volts if the output is tied to the control pin. Except that unlike the sloping knee of the low voltage zener its voltage holds constant from less than 100 microamps up to 20 or 30 milliamps. If you put a resistive voltage divider on the control pin you can get higher voltage zeners up to a maximum of 35 volts. There is one in every computer power supply sampling the 5 volt output and sending controls back through an optical isolator to the line side switching regulator. A very popular chip. NiCads in a battery pack have different capacities. Especially if one leaks some electrolyte. Then when the pack is discharged, the weak one gets charged with reversed polarity. That makes the metals grow whiskers and those whiskers are the shorts. Sometimes you can burn the whiskers off and have a good battery pack again, but the root cause, that weak cell, will limit the capacity of the pack and will short again. I don't think its worth the bother though I've done it many times. I prefer to open up the pack and use a good single cell with the same ratings as the one that is shorted, then I'm less likely to make it expand uncontrollably (with a bang) because the energy I apply is limited. So long as the regulator regulates the battery voltage it makes up for the voltage drop in the diode and the diode makes a better cutout than the best relay cutout. I found that with my VW regulator with diode cutout back in 1968 or 1969. Since that diode drops as much as a volt at 30 amps, it needs a good heat sink to keep it cool. Can't be just the wire leads to keep it cool. Unless they are made of 2" copper water pipe a couple feet long. I believe Steve in NJ sells diodes for cutouts packaged to look like relay cutouts. They would work superbly with a current regulated 3 brush generator. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 7:01pm
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Hee hee... okay, so put a trailer behind it, hook the PTO to a BIG dynamo... you'd probably have just enough output, at full snot... to power those fils... Didn't Allis make some big transmitters and induction furnace supplies using the early 3cx50k or like? John W9AT built 'em for industry during WW2... and after the war, moved on to the outfit in Schaumberg... |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 9:10pm
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Gerald, Dave Brian, You guys keep it up, ya'll might just come up with sumpin. Would it be nice if a "B" owner could finally have a generator that didn't cook/kill the battery? |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 9:23pm
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I have the solder and an iron ready to go. Ok Gerald and Dave, your turn... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: CJohnS MI
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 10:25pm
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