No drive on left track HD-6B
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=157619
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2024 at 1:55pm
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Topic: No drive on left track HD-6B
Posted By: kblackav8or
Subject: No drive on left track HD-6B
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 12:15am
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I am finally an owner. My 1965 HD-6B / AG mutt came home today. We knew going in that it had a problem on the left side. Initially the clutches were stuck a couple years ago so my friend soaked them with diesel and eventually got them loose. Sometime in the meantime now the left side won't drive at all. The adjustment feels like there is normal freeplay, not much on the steering levers but you can tell it isn't over adjusted near as I can tell. It runs and shifts fine otherwise, just difficult to maneuver and took a push to get it on the trailer. It does run and sound good. Smokes a little when cold and at idle but with temps and rpms in more of the operating range really not much smoke to note. My plans are to initially see if there is some troubleshooting I can do but expect I am probably looking at rebuilding the steering clutches unless there is some things I can look at beforehand. Start up of the 7000 engine. https://youtu.be/Ml4YuvOyd6E" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Ml4YuvOyd6E
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Replies:
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 8:28am
| Get the cover off and see what is broken. Has a Spool type bevel gear drive so will be either in the clutch pack or bull gears outside the clutches. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2019 at 11:23am
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Does this have to be gears or shafts or could the clutch just be seized in the released position? |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 1:54am
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Getting it open is part of the plan. A week ago it was working..kinda. Then just sort of gave up. The drums had been filled up with diesel for a long time to free them so possible the friction disks have given up entirely or are just slick. Going to try and put some solvent in to see if that will flush out any oily residue. The plan is to pull them out and rebuild them with new stuff but was expecting them to show some signs of working at least a little. |
Posted By: Ages Cat
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 11:13am
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Broken axle? Very common on an HD-6. ------------- Curt Anderson HD3, HD5B, HD6E, HD6AG,HD6B dozer, I-400, 615, 616,(2) 620, 720, ACP25 lift truck, 1956 D Special Grader, AC 540 loader, AC 655 crawler loader, AC #84 plow, Simplicity lawn tractors. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 11:44am
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Is there a way to tell? How hard is that to fix? |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 11:48am
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very uncommon to have steer clutch frozen in release position. take the covers off,drain the diesel. operate opposite side clutch while in gear to see if the faulty side brake drum turns. if not its something inside the clutch otherwise a final drive issue
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 12:52pm
| Open the inspection cover and check if the top pinion flange is turning and if he is it could be final drive pinion or sproket shaft and if not maybe the pinion flange to the stering cluch the bolts are stripp or could be too the fuel in stering cluch could make stering cluch is slidding |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 3:05pm
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How much disassembly required to get to this inspection cover? Anyone have pictures up somewhere to see what I am getting into? Darn shame, I knew I was into clutches which was bad enough but was hoping it wasn't anything "broken and hard to obtain". |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 3:32pm
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just bolts to remove to pull that cover. its under the fuel tank. to do any work you will have to pull the tank, but you can see in there by just popping the cover ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 10:29pm
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Kevin...been following along...have to concur with Cal....never seen one stuck in the free position. But what Ages Cat says is closer to what I think also. I would follow Cals advice...get the inspection covers of and see what's going on in there. Hopefully Ages and I are not right...maybe it's something simple...yes that would even include a steering clutch rebuild. Here's a post of one of our projects of a HD6 with a broken sprocket shaft....we also had a HD5 with the same affliction...it's posted also. http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd6ep-repair_topic137721_post1141289.html?KW=HD6EP#1141289" rel="nofollow - http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd6ep-repair_topic137721_post1141289.html?KW=HD6EP#1141289
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Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2019 at 10:52pm
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The previous owner is a friend of mine and didn't feel any pop, bang or anything else. It just started slipping and not doing anything. I am going to see about opening it up. I don't have any kind of tools like those shown in that other thread. The pullers etc. I posted more pictures of it. https://kblackav8or.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/" rel="nofollow - https://kblackav8or.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/ And a walk around video. https://youtu.be/wUNRgAmh50U" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/wUNRgAmh50U
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Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2019 at 10:38pm
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So today I moved it. At first it felt like that side tried to help just a little. I wonder what happens to clutch material after you soak it in diesel for 2 years... that is what has happened here and I have some renewed hope it is just so oiled down it can't get any grip or the clutch material has just completely disintegrated. I think I am going to see about making sure the drums are actually drained and put some solvent in there to see if cleaning the oily residue out helps. If nothing else it might be somewhat cleaner in there when we dig down that far. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2019 at 10:43pm
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Today I pulled up the seat, shined a light in there and observed the brake drum. Very oily in there. Very. So if I hold the right hand (good side) steering clutch lever back and then start to engage the main clutch in gear, the drum will start to turn then the clutch starts slipping. The tracks do try and turn a little with this. I am not more confident that nothing is broken in there. Not to say there might not be some oil getting in there from somewhere. The case had diesel in it for something like 2 years I verified today with the plugs installed. I put 2 gallons of naptha in there but I don't think that is near enough. How much should I put in there? If I can at least have it so it can move around without having to use my "steering firewood" it would be helpful. |
Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2019 at 6:53am
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I think you found your problem. That brake drum is also your steering clutch. If it is oily the clutch is gonna slip. The steering clutch discs are inside the drum that the brake band wraps around. Hopefully the fiber discs haven't deteriorated from being soaked in the diesel fuel for so long. ------------- Looking at the past to see the future. '53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it! |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2019 at 7:54am
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I agree with truckfarmers here. if the drum started to turn then stopped, your issue is clutch slippage whether its deteriorated disks or something/buildup preventing the clamping of the clutch disks. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2019 at 8:33am
| I would say you would want to be about 1/3 the way up on the drum with your solvent so it picks it up, but is below the shaft and bearings. I hope it works for you. My honest opinion is they have soaked too long in diesel and you are going to need to replace the clutch discs and brake linings to get proper operation. That's how my luck runs. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2019 at 10:47am
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All along before even purchasing we had a plan to rebuild the steering clutches with the modern stuff as they were stuck pretty bad. Just not looking forward to the project though it doesn't look all that bad other then getting to them. Canopy off, seat/tank off. |
Posted By: Ages Cat
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2019 at 10:55am
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If you don't want to have stuck clutches in the future, use the bi-metallic discs in lieu of the fiber discs as they do not stick. You will find once you get into those compartments that you may need additional parts. We did the HD5B, and had to cut one brake drum out as it was rusted so badly. We replaced the throw out bearings, grease hoses, brake bands, and used bi-metallic discs. Fortunately AC designed them to be worked on so they can be removed and installed without breaking the tracks. ------------- Curt Anderson HD3, HD5B, HD6E, HD6AG,HD6B dozer, I-400, 615, 616,(2) 620, 720, ACP25 lift truck, 1956 D Special Grader, AC 540 loader, AC 655 crawler loader, AC #84 plow, Simplicity lawn tractors. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 01 Feb 2019 at 6:33pm
Also remove and replace the drain plugs, to let any oil leak out, then replace, to keep the mice out... Both are NOT conducive to long life for steering clutches/brakes...
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Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 6:34am
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Any luck yet? ------------- Looking at the past to see the future. '53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it! |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 11:04am
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Haven't put it in the shop yet. I need to find a source for both sizes of plug. The smaller ones shouldn't be too bad but the bigger ones I haven't had luck with online yet. Been told to visit a Cat dealer as they apparently used a similar or same plug in a lot of their older machines. |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 12:16pm
| The pipe plug 3/4 is for compartiment cluch and big one is for drain bevel gear case and she is the same for final drive drain and final drive filler hole and if remember you need ratchet 1/2 drive for removed |
Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 9:30pm
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Standard pipe plugs should work. These old machines were built before metric was used on American made machines. ------------- Looking at the past to see the future. '53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it! |
Posted By: HD6GTOM
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2019 at 6:14pm
| I used plastic plugs on my hd6's. Got them from the local hardware store. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2019 at 11:15pm
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Caterpillar has plugs that match those that are on my finals and also fit the empty holes. It isn't pipe thread - no taper to the thread. Should have my plugs in the next couple days and may get it moved into the shop this week after I re-organize some things.  |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2019 at 10:25am
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the plugs are 3/4 pipe - same on the HD5 as rear case on the 6 and 5 are the same . HD11 clutch plates are the same just differ in numbers used . It might be all the fiber plates need replacing - and or the tabs on the clutch material have sheared off allowing the drum to turn without locking it to the hub . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 1:35am
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OK today it went into the shop. Ran into a number of rusty bolts and the canopy was a problem so we took the side skirts off just so we could get it off with the limited height we were working with. Read we torched the wrap around section of the lower portion of the canopy on this machine. Plan to revise the mounting to more of the frame area instead of just the fender. I took probably 6lbs of grease and gunk out of the bottom of the left hand clutch housing. We also took a peak at the ring and pinion. Some wear on the pinion but not enough to consider it a problem. No abnormal wear on the ring. Closed that back up. Left hand clutch wasn't too bad to get out but we had to make a custom wrench to do it. Rebent with heat and welded on some extra steel to get enough leverage to get the bolts out. Time consuming and once we figured out the brake band business not too bad to get it out. No oil in the plates so that doesn't seem to be the problem. Also it has the sintered friction plates. Most all of them measure out on the low end for thickness and so do a lot of the steels. Springs seem right about spec. Had 13 frictions and 12 steels. (That seems off) We used the starter to bump it forward and it turns everything but the output of the clutch is slipping it appears. After the clutch was out I grabbed both flanges and wiggled to see if anything was broken. So far nothing that I can tell so focusing on the clutches. Planning on ordering a bunch of new parts tomorrow to rebuild both clutch packs. https://photos.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/i-fqhs3cB/0/271f90bf/L/20190214_193527-L.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://photos.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/i-fqhs3cB/0/271f90bf/L/20190214_193527-L.jpg https://photos.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/i-t7NVLTh/0/065e8652/XL/20190214_193554-XL.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://photos.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/i-t7NVLTh/0/065e8652/XL/20190214_193554-XL.jpg More pictures at the end of the collection at: https://kblackav8or.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/" rel="nofollow - https://kblackav8or.smugmug.com/Machines/Allis-Chalmers-HD-6/
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Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 5:30am
| Make sure your stering cluch pressure plate 050218 is fine |
Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2019 at 11:15am
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So does your homemade wrench look anything like this? I made this one about i965. Always thought I should have patented it.  Then in about 1975 the MAC TOOL guy showed up in our yard with these...and of course they were a" must have". Ironically to this day ...any steering clutch removal job...all 3 are used  Ok...so following along here...I'm not seeing any smoking gun in the steering clutch. You have bi-metallic..not fiber discs..so they didn't rot away..If they measure with in the tolerances...and they certainly look good...the steels too....and the springs too. So "humor me"....I see you wiggled both the hubs...I would try to turn the brake drum hub on the pinion gear with a long bar...put some studs..pins...bolts..something long enough to use a pry bar on to see if you can turn it. Somethings not adding up here???? |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 12:44am
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We aren't 100% sure but much of the stuff measures out about minimum thickness. We have some odd uneven wear and some steels that were not flat, sort of dished. So all that is getting replaced. Somewhat suspicious the clutch may have been "stuck" in the released position and they may have tried to adjust to it. At any rate cleaning everything up and replacing all the worn stuff. Parts are ordered. I went out and tried to turn both shafts, inner and outter with the clutch pack out and both sides feel like I presume they should. Tight, unable to turn them. I pulled and tugged and nothing felt out of sorts. I did find a stacking error in the clutch. There were more frictions then steels. 13 frictions, 12 steels. Going to replace both throw out bearings. Was a lot of grease in that compartment. Grease, not oil. Going to check that grease fitting hose. Yes my tool isn't as pretty. I bent it so it would fit in the compartment, clear the brake drum and then have enought length to break them loose. |
Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 11:38am
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Copy that....sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Yes the book calls for 10 frictions and 10 steels...with an added steel if needed for additional stack height...does sound like you have more than required. The oil types have more of both. Assuming you have a service manual for this serial number series?
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Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 3:32pm
| with these discs you should have 12 frictions and 12 discs but with fiber it is 10 frictions and 10 discs for 2 7/8 inchs |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 10:19am
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My parts are in. How difficult is it to change the throw out bearings? I ordered those too. |
Posted By: Ages Cat
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 3:04pm
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Throw out bearings are easy to replace afte the clutch packs are out. Make sure you replace the hoses. Use a good quality grease gun hose. ------------- Curt Anderson HD3, HD5B, HD6E, HD6AG,HD6B dozer, I-400, 615, 616,(2) 620, 720, ACP25 lift truck, 1956 D Special Grader, AC 540 loader, AC 655 crawler loader, AC #84 plow, Simplicity lawn tractors. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 5:17pm
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So those are just grease gun hoses. That is good to know. |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 8:01pm
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Finally got the brake pins out of the right hand side and that clutch out. Thanks to my home made AC tools we got it apart. Tomorrow we will hopefully be on the re-assembly mode.   |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 10:50pm
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Clutches are rebuilt. There is a learning curve. First clutch pack took us a couple hours with some fiddling around. Second one only took about 30 minutes. I think if someone showed up and had my friend and I do this for them, if they had the parts and we had no complications, this is a 1 day job. Also replaced the release bearings. 2 things we found were my release flange for lack of a better term was stuck on the shaft and not sliding easily which could have easily caused the the clutch to be stuck in a released position. Also I am pretty sure I recall last week when we took out the left clutch that the pretty plate was protruding slightly rather then being depressed 3/8" per the spec. My grease hoses were ruptured, all the grease was just going into the compartment and not the bearing or shaft. Going to put some assembly lube on that shaft along with some grease since it stays put and slippery for some time. Would be getting ready to put it back together but instead going to get the brake bands re-lined. Key to doing this is having right tools and a helper.  |
Posted By: Ages Cat
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 8:46pm
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Looks familiar. Not a bad job if the parts are not rusted solid. Good luck with it. ------------- Curt Anderson HD3, HD5B, HD6E, HD6AG,HD6B dozer, I-400, 615, 616,(2) 620, 720, ACP25 lift truck, 1956 D Special Grader, AC 540 loader, AC 655 crawler loader, AC #84 plow, Simplicity lawn tractors. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 5:48am
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Impressive project. Thank you for the great posts and pics of your progress. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2019 at 10:10pm
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Last day to work on it for a while. Brake bands are being re-lined and won't be done for a week or so. Got the release bearings and drive flanges reinstalled with fresh grease hoses. They must not have been torqued very well because during removal it only took a crescent wrench and no puller. I am off to work for 6 weeks so no progress until I get home. Just needs fresh brake band and put those freshly rebuilt clutches back in.  |
Posted By: kblackav8or
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 12:52am
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Well it is almost done. Clutches are in. Freshly relined brake bands. Things are adjusted. While in there we discovered a rust hole in the fuel tank so we had to deal with that and the bottoms of the battery boxes were gone. Things are welded up, cleaned up and as of tonight repainted. Need to make a gasket and paint a couple little pieces and put it back together.    |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 5:47am
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Great job on the tank and battery boxes. Is the bracket with the boxes what holds boxes to the frame? The boxes on my 16 were so rusted that the only thing holding them on the tractor were a couple of the bolts on each box that attaches them to the bracket behind the seat. I cut 1/4” angle iron and bolted to the inside of the battery box and the fender. I’m 6’4” and 260 lbs and I pull myself up on the tractor the battery box doesn’t move at all. Very solid. Yours look very good. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |