220 Engine
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=157013
Printed Date: 27 Sep 2024 at 3:07pm
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Topic: 220 Engine
Posted By: A-C_220
Subject: 220 Engine
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 4:05pm
Back in October I thought I got a good deal on a seized '72 220 with air conditioned QCS cab and duals sight unseen. It shows up and I couldn't see any coolant in the rad and the oil is overfull too so not a great sign and so it sits in the yard for a while. Fastforward to last week I get it in the shop and start pulling the head off. Two cylinders still had water in them one had rust dust in it and the other three were rusty as well. Next I find the front pulley moves after I got the fan belts off. So I pull the front end and oil pan off and find the crank broken in front of connecting rod #1. So the question is should I get a new crank and overhaul the 3500 or swap something like a cummins in. I think I'd like to get it to make 200hp or close to it. Any ideas appreciated. Thanks |
Replies:
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 6:25pm
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I would start by removing the engine and tearing it down to see if the block was good. If it's salvageable and you spend the money rebuild the engine, you should get many years of service from it. If you buy a used engine, there is no guarantee it is a good engine (and I'm not much of a Cummins fan...).
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Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 7:18am
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Lots of 3500 parts out there. Like said above, get it apart and see exactly what you need. Combine engines, or Military gen sets are great sources for engine parts. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 8:48am
| When you get it apart, see if that crankshaft has been reground. If so, that is probably why it's broken. |
Posted By: Acdiesel
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 10:54am
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here's one for sale, would be a little bit of a drive but, take what you need and scrap/resell the rest??? link: https://dayton.craigslist.org/hvo/d/dayton-diesel-generator-60kw-allis/6789202789.html" rel="nofollow - Diesel generator 60kW , Allis Chalmers 3500   ------------- D19 diesel,D17 diesel SER.3 D14 NF,D14 WF, D15 SER.II wf D15 SER.2 DIESEL,D15 ser.II nf D12 SER.I, D10 Ser.II 2-720'S Gmc,caterpillar I'm a pharmacist (farm assist) with a PHD (post hole digger) |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 11:47am
| I've always been under the impression that some (if not all) gen set engines had a lighter duty crankshaft in them. It would make sense. Lower HP and only 1800 RPM. |
Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 1:56pm
| The engine is original to the tractor I presume because the paint matches all over the tractor. I checked and the crankshaft had been reground in 1980, so whatever happened I don't know because the tractor would have still been fairly new then. So far the engine looks rebuildable luckily the water didn't freeze in it. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 2:58pm
| Is it the newer crankshaft driven oil pump?? The early 220 engines had failures of the oil pump to camshaft gear and you'd lose oil pressure. If there was a failure, and the block was salvageable, they replaced the old camshaft driven oil pump with the new crankshaft driven oil pump and a new oil pan. Engine s/n on the tag would help to determine if it was a pre-crank drive oil pump or not. |
Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 4:04pm
| The oil pump is mounted right below the crankshaft so i'm guessing it's the later crankshaft driven one. I can get the engine serial no and tractor serial no this weekend. I think the tractor's # put it somewhere in 1972 according to tractordata. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 4:17pm
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Yea, according to your first post, you even mentioned it, and I know I had forgotten that. That ought to be a neat tractor when done, they didn't build too many 220's with the QCS cab much less with air cond. As long as all that is still original, it should have the crank driven oil pump, and your description confirms. 72 220's have some unique features compared to the earlier models. Is the front support under the radiator hollow, or all solid cast? Top link bosses on pto housing should be thicker with a rib on the right one between the pin holes. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 7:12am
| If it is that late of a 220, it would have had the crank driven oil pump from the Factory. It also should have the "fast" low range in the range transmission. This makes 4th gear 5.8 MPH instead of 4.5 MPH. This was the same gearing that the 220 FWA tractors had. |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 9:26am
All 3400 & 3500 series engines regardless of the application used the same crankshaft. They started to use a fully manufactured crankshaft from West Germany when they released the 3700 series engine.
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DrAllis wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 9:51am
| So, the 3400/3500's are a different crankshaft than a 3700. And the 3750 is also different than the 3700. A gen set is always a 3400 or 3500 and should be equal strength and quality as a 3500 in a D21-210-220 engine ?? |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 11:36am
not to hijack the post but what would you recommend on a 3500 eng cam drive oil pump that has a spun #4? must be an early crank as it has the 2 dowels for flywheel machine is 68' ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 12:12pm
| Seldom is a modern diesel crankshaft suitable for regrinding when there has been a bearing burn-out. It might even magnaflux crack-free. The problem is the metallurgy has changed from something that was very hard and durable to something that is now softer and weaker. Imagine taking a Grade 8 bolt and heating it just up to the point of turning it red. Do you think it is still a grade 8 quality after that ?? NOPE. I personally know of a local machine shop that has reground cranks like that and within 100 hrs they are broken, right where the bearing failure had been before. The other issue is many machine shops are automotive specialists and don't understand how to properly do heavy duty diesel engine cranks. The fillet radius must be done correctly or the crank will one day break at that point. Cars don't have a fillet radius like heavy duty diesel cranks. |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 2:28pm
Not sure of when the "West German" cranks were introduced but, is was around the time that the 3700's & 3750's came out. By the time they came out with the 3700 series (mid to late 70's ?) I had left engine assembly department (dept 75) and moved over to inspection (Customer Product Auditor). No matter if the engine was for a gen set or tractor they took the same crankshaft. All of those cranks were machined in house at the Harvey Engine plant. Don't quote me on this but, at one time they used forgings made in the US and then switched over to Japanese forgings. The German cranks came in fully machined and where for the top horsepower engines (3700/3750 series). |
Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 2:43pm
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It says JAPAN right on the head of the engine so it wouldn't surprise me if there was more parts on the engine made there. injpumped I didn't look to closely at the rest of the tractor, but this weekend I'll check some other stuff out.
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Posted By: Mike Kroupa
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 3:11pm
| Interesting post here for sure. I'm overhauling a 1976 185,2800 engine in my shop. The block has France cast on the side and the rods are stamped Japan. Did AC not have the plant capacity to cast their major engine components in house, or was it cheaper and easier to outsource? This time period was in the Glory Days of engine/tractor production with the major downturn in agriculture looming just over the horizon., Mike |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 3:33pm
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AC_220 where are you in Canada? I'm in western Ontario. I have a complete engine that was in a salvage yard 210 that I bought. Engine was tight. Had a rebuilt 220 engine for the 210. Should have the correct crank for you. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 4:05pm
| I'm from up in Eastern Ontario. If the crank will fit I will more than likely be interested if I can't find one closer. |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 8:35pm
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I was in Maxville a few weeks ago. Likely almost at your place ! ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 6:07am
| I am about 15 miles from Cornwall in northern NY. If you need a place to have parts shipped in the US and want to pick it up at my place, give me a shout. |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 9:27am
During my employment at the Harvey Engine plant they didn't do any casting of parts. I was told that when the plant was Buda they did some foundry work there and that is why we had the United Steel Works union and not the United Auto Works union like the other AC plants. It was cheaper to outsource 1) Avoid paying union wages 2) Outsourcing was becoming the "in thing to do" even though American manufacturing wasn't ready for it.
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Posted By: Mike Kroupa
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 1:54pm
| OK, thanks for the information, so the Harvey Plant was basically a Engineering and Assembly/Test Building. |
Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 2:09pm
| Maxville is 40min give or take some from where i'm at. What was happening there? Thanks for the offer WF owner, i'll keep that in mind. |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 6:31pm
When I hired on in March of 68 just about everything was machined in plant. They started to outsource some of the machine parts in the early 70's and by the late 70's they had outsourced a lot of the "smaller parts" although larger parts such as blocks, heads, cranks and other large stuff was still being machined in house.
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Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 8:44pm
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AC_220 We built two silos for MacEwen's feedmill. Also built the big silos for P&H in Winchester 20 years ago. Built a lot of farm silos in that area in the early 70's ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Alex09(WI)
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 9:33pm
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So class, let us summarize this discussion thus far: 1. A-C engine parts always come from the US, sometimes from Japan, once in a while from France, except when the are already machined, then they come from West Germany. 2. Once you heat a grade 8 bolt, it will not be a grade 8 anymore. 3. A guy in Canada lives close to another guy in Canada, but has the option to pick up parts in the U.S. 4. Calvin built a lot of silo's in the 70's ------------- www.awtractor.com A&W TRACTOR 920-598-1287 KEEPING ALLIS-CHALMERS IN THE FIELDS THROUGH THE 21ST CENTURY |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 5:38am
...and your point is (if there is one) ??? |
Posted By: ebowman
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 6:49am
Sooo, I am confused. I have a 2900 in a 190XTD that had water getting into the oil. Tore it apart and found this scored crank bearing where the water was leaking. The crank is not "smooth" and I was going to have it reground. Are you saying don't waste my time resurfacing it? Just replace it? I'm guessing .010 would take care of it. I know its not a 3500 or 3700 but don't want to break the crank later either. ------------- WD45, '62 D17 Diesel, '65 190XTD, '74 7030, 1958 Roto-Baler |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 7:00am
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re: replace or regrind option couple of points to consider 1) cost to regrind your crankshaft ? 2) cost to buy another carankshaft ? include shipping ! and bearing set !! 3) you'll need a bearing set or at least 1 pair. 4) you KNOW your crank is good,well no hidden defects...everything fits.. If done proper a replaced bearing set will outlive me. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 2:00pm
| Will a crank out of a 7040 work in my older engine with no modifications? Or would I be better off rebuilding the 7040 engine and bolt it in. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 2:18pm
| 7040 crank will go right in with no issues. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 7:29am
Kind of funny.....but....why?
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Posted By: A-C_220
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 2:20pm
| Would a D21 block work with the crank driven oil pump off the 220? and is there any other problems with putting the 220 parts on the D21 block. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 5:22pm
| Block would need to have two mounting holes drilled/tapped I think. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 11:01pm
| Didn't they jet the mains on higher hp 7000's before the rifle drilled rods system came out? Might want some piston cooling if pushing 200hp. My 220 got jet tubes from a Binder block installed at O/H. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 May 2019 at 6:04am
| Early design piston cooling has a small hole drilled in the upper main brg saddle. Could be done on an older D21/210/220 block if desired but needs crankshaft driven oil pump to have enough oil GPM's. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 07 May 2019 at 12:34pm
| Mine does and I had to crank the regulator to get oil pressure back up LOL |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 7:39am
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 7:48am
Few things here: First off, hello pot, I'm kettle!  2nd, I was not the first or only one to say something similar. And most importantly, thanks for calling me out nearly 4 MONTHS later!!!  As for the "joke", do either of us know it's a joke? Seems more snark than joke to me, but I could be wrong. Always a pleasure Lonn
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Posted By: steve fischer
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 8:18am
| have rebuilt engines and parts if you want to rebuild yours thanks Steve 507-766-0551 |