Questions about a 200
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=151441
Printed Date: 16 Nov 2024 at 12:52pm
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Topic: Questions about a 200
Posted By: Wilford1999
Subject: Questions about a 200
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 9:58am
| I am looking at a 200 that is a little rough. The guys says it starts right up and the engine is strong. Has brand new front tires and backs are 60 to 70 percent. Has a cab on it, but all the glass is gone except for the doors. Says he has straps on the high low to keep them engaged. Also said it has had a new radiator 5 years ago and Injector pump was rebuilt a couple years ago. He didn't explain it well but said it has a hydraulic leak in the middle of the tractor. What do you guys think, says 4000 is he bottom dollar |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 10:23am
| A " hydraulic leak in the middle of the tractor" means just that........it is leaking internally in the middle of the tractor and has to be split in two pieces to repair. |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 11:52am
| I bought two 200s this year actually in one week, I have open tractors- no cabs- but with the way you describe yours it seems high to me but a lot of times prices are adjusted geographically so in Iowa that may be a good price but in North Carolina it's high for what you are buying. I am worried about the high/low being strapped down also the hydraulic leak- is it internal leaking out or external leak. Like Dr Allis says if it's internal the tractor has to be split. One of mine had a leak near the bellhousing but turned out side cover bolt was too long and had rubbed a hole in the pump supply tube. We cut it and put a rubber hose over it with clamps. Based on if it needs to be split I would be around $2500. |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 2:04pm
 I bought this 190xt which (is very similar to a 200) about 2 years ago with brand new tires all the way around, has a power director that doesn't need to be strapped, it has a cab with all good glass, everything works, no shift issues, not bad looking sheet metal, but it did have a fuel injection pump that needed rebuilt when I bought it. I paid $3,500.00. I argued to myself that the tires were worth half of what I paid for it. I added the winch and lights later. It does have an EXTERNAL hydraulic leak in the middle of the tractor due to a coupling line issue, so pinpointing whether it is external or internal is a big deal. The steering wheel runs off of hydraulic lines in the middle of the tractor also, so if they were leaking that wouldn't be a huge problem. I agree that $2,500.00 is probably a better price since it has issues. A lot of sellers don't want to face the fact that these tractors just don't have many buyers lined up any longer. If the tractor has to be split and you don't do it, you will never get your money back. If I ever split my tractor, I will also replace things that aren't broke because they are probably worn and ready to break. That will get even more expensive. I love my 190xt so that 200 is a good tractor, if it all works. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 2:26pm
| That's a beautiful 190 Calico |
Posted By: Wilford1999
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 2:50pm
|
The guys acted as if it was a cover and was external plate leak that just needed a new gasket. I don't know 200s well, is there a external plate somewhere. I would split the tractor myself and fix the hi low eventually but that might be a year or 2. I don't need it, just thought it would be another nice tractor to have around, and I'll probably sit this one out. |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 3:00pm
| Make an offer tell the guy to call you when he decides to sell it. I have been looking at a 175 that a widow owns I won't make an offer yet because I don't want to appear to be a vulture but someone in the family gave her a price that's not reasonable and I have been waiting for what I feel is an appropriate time. The art of the deal is the seller wants all they can get and the buyer wants a deal. I just want what's fair. Anytime I price something I try to be fair and put myself in the buyers shoes. But a lot of times sellers don't realize it's 2018 |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 5:46pm
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Thanks red bank, but the late evening photo is hiding some cosmetic issues. Wilford, if you do your own work then that would be a nice tractor to own. However, if you can't get to it for awhile maybe you could find a better starting point. I would low ball him and wait it out. He may have it a year from now. Only mechanics or salvage guys are probably going to buy it. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 5:52pm
|
By the way, I am unaware of a plate and gasket on 190xt. Others on here know far more about the hydraulics than I do. I wonder if the hydraulic leak is related to the power director not holding in gear? ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 7:55pm
|
$4000 for the 200 you described is too much. Sounds like a pretty rough tractor. I would don't even think I would go as high as 3000. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: allisbred
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 9:23pm
| The 200 is a nice tractor-- think about what the repair cost will be, add a few dollars, then think about what a new 110hp tractor will cost with maintance for a about 5 years. Just my justification😉 |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2018 at 10:13pm
|
I bought a 200 years ago. They wanted $6800 for it. I test drove it, low power director slipped, high you could not engage slow it went in with a bang kind of all at once, tires not new but 50% injector lines all leaked at the pump, cab and all windows there but interior sound absorbing foam all torn up. I offered him $3200. They finally called a week later and said they would take it , I got a corn head as well from them on the same delivery truck. Paid more extra for it. Well the power director needed both plates stationary and the moving ones, high and low warped beyond imagination pto clutch was right out of it as well two speed pto leaked like a sieve and I put a rear seal in the engine as well fixed the power director valve as it leaked internally when I got it back together...before I found out the pto clutch was smoked and of course the pto vale needed rebuilt as well as it leaked internally too. got it all back together and the spool on the back of the hydraulic pump, I think it is the proportioning valve??, well it stuck a few times. So the valve cover leaks after all this, I never had it off. I am peeved right off because the parts cost more than I paid for the tractor I did the work myself so I run it, let the valve cover leak, I know the engine will blow up I will fix it then. I build up another engine for it the next winter so I am ready when it does...so 17 years (4500 hours) later the wiring shorts out behind the dash and it catches fire I got it out and now I have to rewire it. Sold the engine a few years back to a fellow that needed a rebuilt one as it was just sitting in my shed ready to go. Great starting tractor and it has power to pull. You wont know til you get it home but that was my experience with my 200
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Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 5:40am
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Does the 200 not have the depress notch on the hi/low lever like a 190? Can't figure why a strap would be required to hold it. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 7:02am
| It has a notched plate The plate wears and you replace it or build it up to get the lever to move far enough and to stay in place |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 10:04am
|
Assuming that notch plate is somewhat easy to replace/fix, and the tractor had an external hydraulic leak, it might be worth reconsidering? Most guys get rid of the cabs anyway. If the sheet metal is really rough, then it still might not be a good idea. Amos, that story was enough to scare me away from purchasing old tractors. Yikes! I am starting to feel lucky on my purchase. It does sound like you got a lot of years out of it though. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 11:27am
| Amos has a good point you don't know until you have it home. And Allisbred is right price a newer 110hp tractor. The first 200 I bought I took two friends with me, I knew they wouldn't buy it and I enjoyed the look on their faces when I told the guy I would take it. When we got it home I told them my reasoning behind buying it and we fixed most of the problems in a weeks time. The second one I bought at an auction mainly for parts but after getting it home it turned out to be better than the first one. Another week spent with it and we have most of the problems fixed or at least enough that I was able to bale hay with it this year. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 12:04pm
| Sorry to disappoint, but a 200 is a 94 HP tractor. |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 12:57pm
|
I have noticed the inconsistency though. TractorData lists it as 104HP but then they cite the Nebraska Test as 93.64 HP for PTO and 79.12 HP for Drawbar. Where did they come up with the 104? They do the same thing on the JD 4020 listing where they list it at 101 but then say it is 91 PTO and 76 for drawbar. Nebraska used the same test results for 190xt and the 200 too, so they didn't retest the 200. Maybe RedBank soups his up. :-) ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 12:59pm
| Tractor data first number is usually engine/flywheel. Then efficiency drops the horsepower available at the PTO, then drops even more to HP to the ground. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 1:04pm
| Seems "the old days", you saw a tractor HP rating and it was PTO HP. You can't drive anything off the flywheel anyway, so made sense. Then some mfg's started the advertising game, competitive tractor but higher HP! Look into it, they're listing engine HP and the PTO HP would be similar. For a while, even into the 90's and 00's, you'd see different ratings among different mfg's. Then they'd throw kW in there for fun, even bigger number! Tractor data is nice, they do a pretty good job of ordering the numbers for comparison amongst models and brands. They may not be perfect, but they do a good job, and keep making edits where problems are detected. IMO. |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 1:27pm
|
I noticed when looking at TractorHouse that some sellers put Allis 190XT and 200s in the "above 100 HP" listings and others put them in the "below 100 HP" listing. Same is true for the JD 4020. So, I just look in both categories now. Thanks for explanation. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 1:36pm
Yeah, tractorhouse can be a little sketchy. If you're looking for 4wd, or not, better look both places as well!
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Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 2:26pm
| When I was looking at my 200 I had checked tractor house for specs. The horsepower figures they showed were from Nebraska test dated 1965 which were also the same test for a 190xt. I read elsewhere probably in this forum that they never tested the 200 so no one really knows. Do you follow the 190xt specs or the 7000 specs? I don't know, usually in my mind I consider it 100hp tractor. As far as hotrodding I do have a 200 that according to InjEd has a pump from a IH 407 dozer on it. Compared to the other 200 it feels stronger but when comparing 44 year old tractors there are too many variables. In the above post I was merely quoting a figure someone else had mentioned. |
Posted By: allisbred
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 2:30pm
| Our 200 measures 116hp on the PT0, could say that the dyno is off, but same that measures 76hp on the 185 with a turned up pump. Not sure what a 200 left the dealer with, just know that it's strong. I've heard of several that were around 115hp in this area though. That's why I just considered them a 110hp tractor. |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 3:52pm
|
All this 200 talk makes me want to have one! I see it as an improved version of the 190xt Series III. My guess is that the HP had increased for the 200 in the 72-75 year span when compared to a 1965 test. According to Tractordata, they made twice as many 190xts as they did 200s so there would be fewer parts, I suppose. I missed a chance at a nice 200 here in Indiana this past fall. It was on craiglist and appeared to be in original but well taken care of condition. I wonder if a forum member got it? ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 4:05pm
How bad do you want one?  I haven't really run into any issues in parts availability yet. I would like to find a cab for one and a canopy mount for the other one. |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 4:35pm
| uploads/18403/IMG_1650_2018-06-22_16-35-09.JPG" rel="nofollow - IMG_1650_2018-06-22_16-35-09.JPG |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 5:12pm
|
Red bank, thanks for the pics. You are too far away for me to entertain a 200 purchase. [;)] I need to fix my 190 up first anyway. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 5:54pm
| Hey we deliver!!! I need to come to Indiana to drop off some cores anyway. No seriously I understand and to be honest for what I have in them I should keep both. And I think it would neat to have one with a cab and one with a canopy. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 6:24pm
|
I've covered this before, but here it is again. When the XT came out, it was tested at Neb. The inj pump was superseded several times and the early one was set to 63-65cc. That is where the 93.64hp rating came from in my opinion. Later ones went to 65-67, then the last ones with the advance pump 9GR were 70-72cc. The 200 is same setting as this. So in my simple mind, the 93.64 hp and 65cc pump spec would indicate the later was 10% higher fuel delivery, so the hp should be in the 103-105 area. The 7000 pump spec is 65-68cc and rated to 106 hp. 7010 & 8010 are 67-71cc, same 106hp, but the larger chassis could have required a touch more fuel. 7020 is 79-83cc, so 15% more fuel, but gets about 17% more power, which the innercooler helps support the added fuel. My experience has proven for every 1 percent of fuel increase, you get 1 to 1.5 pto hp, on turbo diesel farm tractors, to a point. Obviously you get in to pulling situations, it takes a bunch of supporting engine work to support the added fuel. Some of the ones I build are well over 400% on fuel delivery. Odd thing is the 7020 is 123 hp with turbo & innercooled 301, and the 210 is 122 hp, but with the 426 straight turbo engine fuel spec is only 71-75cc. So with all this info, I always consider a 200 to be just over 100 pto hp right out of the gate. I know many will say the dyno is off lol! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 10:01pm
| So, how do you factor in the 3450 psi injectors on a 200 engine to 2900 psi injectors on an older 190 XT engine ??? I see in my Service Book a 190 XT with 2900 psi injectors was set at 65.5 to 67.5 cc's @ 2,200 RPM. A newer 190XT with timing advance had 3450 psi injectors and fuel setting was 71 cc's. All 200's were as you say 70 to 72 cc's but also with the higher 3450 psi injector settings. After all the rear end problems I don't think their goal was to increase HP. They were maintaining HP with higher injector pressure settings. Dyno a 190 XT with 2900 psi injectors and then re-test (same day, same air temps and humidity) at 3450 psi. No way will you gain HP....it will have to show some HP loss. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 10:35pm
|
My neighbor bought a 1974 200 for $1,200. It needs engine rebuild but the rest of it looks pretty good. Of course he is taking the sellers word that trans/power director is good. It will be a parts tractor for his other 200 if things dont check out. For $1,200, I Hinkle he did well. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2018 at 10:52pm
|
The 200 has the improved rear end, other than that I’m not convinced the 200 is a better tractor. The 190XT is a simpler machine with nearly the same hp. In some ways I like my XT better than my neighbors 200. Not a fan of the short shift power director and they seamed to have had more issues. The longer throw PD on my XT makes it much easier to feather starts when running a baler. No doubt the 200 is a good tractor, especially if you find a we’ll maintained one. ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2018 at 7:15am
|
I certainly learned a lot from this thread despite it wondering away from Wilfords original topic. Thanks drallis and injed. I think Wilford is new to the forum and probably thinks we're a bunch of kooks. Redbank if you drag a 200 to Indiana, you are welcome to stop by. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Wilford1999
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2018 at 7:29am
| I have been looking stuff up on this forum for a few years, just never made an account.I just absorb all the knowledge being shared. |
Posted By: Red Bank
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2018 at 7:59am
| Wilford did you make an offer or did we scare you away from it? |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2018 at 8:21am
|
Wilford, that's good and glad to see you post. You already know how this can go since you have been lurking. I have been trying to engage more since I have benefitted greatly from this site. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: Wilford1999
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2018 at 8:47am
| The guy deleted his post, so I'm assuming he sold it or got tired of people coming to his house cause when I called him he said he had a lot of tire kickers coming to look at it. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2018 at 7:37pm
The specs I have are the Stanadyne specs, and they are all set with 2500 psi 12SD12 test injectors. I've found over the years, the pump will still pump similar quantities, even at varying opening pressures. The increase is opening pressure was attempts at cleaning up smoke. Remember in those days 3000 psi was a lot. The 2800 engine was 2850 psi, but turbo 2900 was 3150, by the books I have, for XT & 200. The 7000 shows 3700 psi for AC or Bosch inj, 7010/20 show 4050psi for AC inj, 4000 psi for Bosch. Back then they didn't know how much the pumps could withstand lol!
------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: Joe(TX)
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2018 at 2:51pm
The first 200's had the PD lever like the 190. Later ones used the notched plate. A common problem on the early ones was linkage wear that caused the power director valve to not fully engage. There is a side plate that the PD valve bolts to on the right side. ------------- 1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 7:08am
|
Alright, I remember reading in the Allis-Chalmers bible, Norm Swinford's book I think, where the 200 was company tested at around 105 PTO HP. AC didn't want to spend the money to retest at Nebraska so they sold it under the original 190XT specs which allowed the 200 to be sold in Nebraska without being tested. Nebraska law requires or required testing at the U's testing site before a tractor could be sold in the state. I don't know any facts, I wasn't there but I'm going to take Norm Swinford's book as true at this point. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2018 at 12:28pm
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I never knew that Nebraska required the testing by law. I just assumed it was a moneymaking scheme by the University. That also explains the missing 200 test. Thanks for that Lonn. I guess I need to read that Swinford book. ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |