Buda to AC Engines
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=147738
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2024 at 6:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Buda to AC Engines
Posted By: Jim Allen
Subject: Buda to AC Engines
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 11:48am
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I have several questions about the 6BD230 engine and how it evolved into the D262. I'm researching for an article in the "Tractor Talk" column in Diesel World magazine about the D-19. Dr. Allis seems to have a handle on some the engine stuff, so I hope he will chime in. With the limited resources and timeframe I have, I can't seem to find the date when the Buda 6BD230 engines appeared. I have several diesel catalogs from the WWII era with Buda diesel listed and the 230 doesn't appear in any to 1948. I know several ag manufacturers used them, Cockshutt included, starting about that time and before AC owned the company. I don't know for sure, but it appears they were parent bore engines up to the time AC worked them over. By the time the WD-45 diesel appeared late in '54, it had been converted to a wet-sleeve design, still making 230 ci. The first appearance I see for the D262 was 1957 in the D-17 and the bore and stroke increases are obvious. Mainly I am trying to plot the introduction of the 6BD230 by Buda, confirm that it was a parent bore, then confirm that AC immediately did the "wet-cylinder-ectomy" and reintroduced it as a wet sleeve power plant for 1954, bore and stroking it for 1957 to make the 262. Many thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 12:15pm
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The Buda 153 engine in the Cockshutt 30 was exactly like the 230 except it was a 4 cylinder and it was wet sleeve,the 230 in the Cockshutt 40 was wet sleeve the 273 in the Cockshutt 50 was the same in bore and stroke as the 230 but used a larger cylinder hole and had no sleeves. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 12:21pm
| Allis-Chalmers farm equipment dealers had been using wet sleeves in their gas engines since 1934 in the WC tractor. To expect Customers and Dealers to now accept a new diesel engine that required boring the block at overhaul time would have been (in my thinking) unacceptable. So, A-C reworked an existing engine into a wet sleeve design. They owned the Company, so they could do whatever they wanted. I suspect much of the plant tooling didn't even change, as far as cylinder head bolt patterns and the lower end of the block (crankshaft/mains/rods, etc). I know I've seen old Buda Service literature and am sure that is the history of the B-series engines, gas and diesel. The cubes had to get bigger to be able to achieve 50+ HP for the D-17, so the 262 cubes was developed and was never a bored block version....only wet sleeves. The real disaster was when some genius engineer thought it was a good idea to turbocharge the D-262 for the D-19. The sleeve lip was hardly enough as it was in the D-17 nat asp version, but the turbocharger saw to it the sleeves couldn't stay up very long and got pounded downwards allowing head gaskets to promptly fail. In the case of the D-19, a bored block (with a turbo) would have actually been a better deal............... |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 1:21pm
I think I read where Allis started using wet sleeves by 1918 with the intro of the model E. Nothing to do with Buda so maybe useless info but that is all I know  ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Jim Allen
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 2:39pm
| Some interesting info but not what I was looking for. I'm trying to discover when the 6BD230 engine was introduced. I have a gap in my Buda literature and documentation from '48 to 54. It doesn't appear in a '48 catalog, nor a '45, '42 or '39. Interestingly, some Cockshutt materials indicate the 6BD230 was wet sleeved in the late '52 era. The same materials indicate the 153 was wet speeded as early as 1947. Also, it states the 6BD230 that appeared in the Cockshutt 40 for 1950 was wet sleeved. the 6BD273 that appeared for 1953 was parent bore. The info I have is thatAC seal the deal on Buda in November of '53, so if wet sleeving was done to a parent bore in time for the intro of the WD-45 diesel, it was a world's speed record development. Anyway, this is all from the Cockshutt club's book, which is the only thing I have found so far that sheds any light at all. It's most likely correct but rather than rehash incorrect information, I'd rather verify with a second source. I know the WD-45 diesel was wet sleeved. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 3:22pm
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All the 230 diesel and gas engines used in the Cockshutt 40 tractors were wet sleeve engines the only thing I can see when AC started using the 230 D in the WD45D was to make the water pump opening on the head a little larger.And on the Gleaner combine engines they increased the size of the water pump hole again and some where along the way they increased the valve size on the gassers don't know if they did the same thing on the diesel.Always thought AC should have offered a WD45D with the 273 and larger rear tires and called it the WD45 Super Diesel. I bought over a dozen heads off 230 engines on Gleaner combines to put on Cockshutt 40 and 50 engines don't think I ever saw 2 that were exactly the same. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 3:52pm
| June 12, 1950 was the Nebraska Test date for the Cockshutt model 40. If all the B-230's were wet sleeved, then A-C didn't have anything to do with it. They didn't purchase Buda until 1953, I think. The 230 and 273 Buda's were both 4 1/8" stroke. The A-C 262 was 4 3/8" stroke with a 3 9/16" bore. Maybe the sleeve lip flange on the 230's was adequate compared to the 262's.??? |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 4:23pm
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The 153 4 cylinder motors were identical to the 230 6 cylinders other than the two cylinder difference,so since the 30 had 153 motors in them starting 1947 no reason to think the 230 was any different then.The 273 was used in some industrial applications as I have run across them so maybe that's why they were not sleeved.Also had a 153 diesel power unit from Navy surplus that seemed to be older than the Cockshutt 30 1947 start date it was wet sleeve engine.Buda also built a 4 cylinder version of the 273 think it was a 182. |
Posted By: Jim Allen
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 4:24pm
| I am in contact with someone with some Buda expertise and will talk to him tomorrow. In digging around in disparate sources, it does appear that the 4BD and 6BD engines were all sleeved (except the 273) prior to AC's purchase in November of 1953. I will verify that tomorrow. I am featuring Jim Stammen's D19, who lives not too far from me, and his block dropped some sleeves back in the past and had to be welded. I'll keep you all posted... |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 4:38pm
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There is a thread back in March 2014 on here about someone working on a 1952 Cockshutt 40 with the 230 the poster was having trouble with the wet sleeves.Alot of information in that thread comparing the 40 engine to the WD45D |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 6:06am
| If memory serves, there was a company in South LA that had an abundance of BUDA parts as they serviced the marine engines back to the 30's or 40's? I came across the info back in 2002(?) but cannot put my hands on it currently. At the time, they still had a contact number but were hard to reach. Reportedly had a very large inventory of older engine parts and had many drawings as they had a close relationship with BUDA prior to A-C. Maybe an internet search can ferret out some info. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 6:20am
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Information on the Buda engine company in LA is at the top of the page now. |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 6:55am
| Had not had my first cup of coffee yet! |
Posted By: Jim Allen
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 10:23am
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Just off the phone with Phil Heisey, who is a Cockshutt guy but knowledgeable about the Buda. The B-Series Buda started of in '46 with wet sleeves but there were parent bore versions in the family, notably the 273 and 182. First off, a question. In Allis-Chalmers official language, what were these engines called. I see people here referring to them a "D230" or "D262" but I don't see those designations on any official materials I have... which is not a lot. I don't have any Buda literature from '61-64 either. Just want to get the terminology officially right. Phil couldn't pin the exact date down, but in the late '50s, probably '57 when the 262 debuted, AC/Buda went from the B-Series to a "G-Series" engine. Some of the changes included changing the way the liners were sealed from having the seals on the liner to having the seals in the block. That's apparently the time when the spin-on filters appeared and the oil pumps were improved. This is also when the 175 four cylinder debuted (a four cylinder version of the 262). Maybe this is the "silly update" AC did that made dropped sleeves so much more common, eh? Other changes for the "G-Series" engines included the water pump being relocated to the block from the head. What say y'all?
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Posted By: soo junction
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 6:47am
| Just wondering what page you saw the CA info on. Found out the Buda engine Co closed it's doors last week. I'm desperate to find parts for a Buda B-182 and was told they may have sold their stock to a place in Ca. Thanks for any help you or any other member can offer. Thanks |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 8:07am
That's the 4 cylinder version of the 273? I have a couple 273 engines |
soo junction wrote:Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 6:48pm
Per Swinford, 6BD230 diesel came on line, mid July, 1953. In October, 1954, it was for sale to the public... When the D-19 came out, in 1961, they were a 262, with the turbo.
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Posted By: Mlueken17
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2024 at 8:21pm
| Hello, I’m looking for a 4BD-153 diesel Buda engine for sale close to southern indiana? 812-639-1097 thank you |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2024 at 6:38am
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You might check with 'fork lift repair' companies. I had one in my A-C forklift,real bad blowby. Was going to rebuild ,cept guy quoted $5K AFTER I got it out. Bought a Cockshut 30,was going to put gas engine in for 1/3rd the rebuild but eventually forced to sell forklift. One thing I learned... there's TWO rebuild kits...one has 3 rings, the other 4 and no way to tell until it's all apart... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Mlueken17
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2024 at 11:52pm
| Thank you.. I have the block and everything just needing some extra parts and mainly injectors lines but willing to take any engine doesn’t even have to run |