7020 Excess Smoke Followup- Ran it on a Dyno Today
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Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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Topic: 7020 Excess Smoke Followup- Ran it on a Dyno Today
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Subject: 7020 Excess Smoke Followup- Ran it on a Dyno Today
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 1:54pm
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I finally got a chance to drive it up to my local independent mechanic to run it on the dyno. PTO output was 132 HP at 2300 RPM. Mechanic suggested that I have the injection pump rebuilt and replace the injectors, as there are several updates to both. Once the turbo spools up, the boost reaches a max of 10 PSI. His comment is that is right on the money, and these Allis tractors tend to smoke. |
Replies:
Posted By: ryan(IN)
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 2:06pm
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What "updates" did he say the injection pump and injectors need? Boost number seems low to me. ------------- ryan 1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 2:12pm
| Boost number is very low. Should be 15 + at that HP number. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 3:24pm
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not sure either about updates? For 132 hp it should have had 13-15 psi I'd guess, so at the 132 hp was it smoking heavily? That is only 9 over stock of 123, so I can't see that adding up. There's a problem somewhere. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 7:18pm
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Yes, it was smoking pretty black on the dyno. It was an hour drive to get there. Tractor had a visible black smoke trail the whole trip there. Thick enough that I could see it out the back window of the cab. That's just bare tractor at wide open throttle in high gear, not towing any load. If 10 PSI is not enough boost, where do I start looking? I have already checked all the air intake tubes before the turbo, and put in new air filters. Could someone have put the wrong turbo on it? If so, where do I look to find the part number to identify the turbo? |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 7:22pm
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From what I've seen/heard, yes, the Allis's tend to smoke. Especially the combines. But it does sound like something is wrong, with only 10 pounds boost. The Doc and the others will get you fixed up I bet!
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Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 7:39pm
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I see that I can get a new turbo off of Ebay for less than $300. If I'm going to just start throwing parts at it, that seems like the cheapest place to start. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 7:40pm
| I just re-read your earlier post, so that scraps my message about bird nest in air intake/filter. |
Posted By: HD6GTOM
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 7:54pm
| AC tractors do not smoke with premium #2 diesel. Black smoke is unburnt fuel. They are as clean burning as anything unless you turn the pump screws or have another problem. Good luck with your tractor. I hope you can find someone to help. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 8:59pm
| Well, this is about enough of this posters 7020 engine complaints. I have taken the time to brush off the dust on my 7010/7020 Service Manual. From page A-137 are the dynamometer test specs for a model 7020 tractor engine. NOMINAL PTO HP & RPM - 117.5 PTO HP @ 2300 ENG RPM ----- MAX INTAKE BOOST PRESSURE - 24 PSI ----- MAXIMUM EXHAUST TEMP -1200 DEGREES F* ------ TORQUE CURVE (lugged down to)--- 106 PTO HP @ 1800 RPM WITH 19 PSI BOOST AND 1350 DEGREES F* EXHAUST. These are the facts, like it or not. "Nominal" PTO HP means that they may have been rated at 123 max HP at Nebraska test, but the average HP may have been a little less on some and a little more on others. If you tested ten tractors at the same time, all ten would be a little different. Max boost of 24 psi means maximum, but a number of 20 ish would be very normal and 10 sure as he77 isn't enough. Cooler ambient temps always make boost numbers higher. Normal boost numbers are usually rated on 70 degree ambient temps. If the turbocharger shows no signs of any black paint on the compressor housing, it has been replaced with something. The turbo MUST be replaced with the exact CORRECT replacement for the engine to perform to these rated specs. They aren't like a loaf of bread....any will do. They are spec'd to an exact configuration. Your technician might be a great guy, but he is somewhat ignorant on this 7020 engine when he says the boost is just fine. By the way, even running this engine when you know you are getting coolant in the engine oil is really asking for a hole to be punched in the block. I'm putting my Service book back on the shelf. |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 9:40pm
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DrAllis, thanks for the detailed info. It looks like I need to be focusing on the turbo, unless I can find a boost leak that has evaded detection so far. I don't recall seeing any black paint on the compressor housing when I changed the manifold, but I will give it a more thorough examination tomorrow. I was a bit dubious of my tech's statement about 10 psi being enough boost, because of the previous discussions here. He is definitely not an AC specialist. One thing I am thinking of now. If it's putting out 132 HP now with roughly half the proper boost pressure, what's the fuel screw set at? And what kind of power would it be turning out if it was getting proper boost levels? Am I right that the fuel screw must be turned up quite a bit to get more than rated power, with inadequate boost. BTW, Dyno test was done with a 20 degree ambient air temp. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 9:50pm
| 20 degree ambient temps with SUMMER FUEL in the tank would yield more HP but, with your low boost numbers I'd suspect he has an old M&W dyno which traditionally read 20 or so HP high at that HP range. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 9:51pm
| Also, testing on 540 instead of 1000 RPM makes it look better too. |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 9:56pm
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You guessed right. He has an old M&W dyno, and I am running the 540 PTO. As for fuel, it's whatever the FS driver filled the farm barrel with in November. What's the appropriate part number for the turbocharger? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 10:00pm
| AGCO p/n 74009148 Air Research brand. Maybe Injpumped can fix you up. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 6:25am
 ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 6:55am
| Yup....you'd be correct. It was another guy that started with a "B"..... |
Posted By: WD45Diesel57
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 7:39am
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i dynode my 7020 a year ago it was turning out 126 hp at 1000 pto rpm and boost at around 19 psi, turbo had a nice audible whistle to it, not a lot of smoke, its all stock no tweaking of the pump. my opinion on those cheap turbos on ebay and what ive been told is to stay away and go with a good oem turbo bout $900 from agco WITH warranty!! ------------- 1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100 |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 7:50am
| I have in the past got several turbos from Shoup, and had no trouble with any of them, usually much less than OEM Quite a few for 4440 Deeres, they seem to kill them for some reason... |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 8:20am
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I can get new or reman turbos that are genuine Garret/AirResearch, not the cheap chinese ebay stuff that flys apart, and fills the engine with shrapnel. Does this have a muffler or straight pipe? If a muffler was plugged/broken inside, it could cause the issues. The pump being turned up 25% should not make it smoke going down the road. Going down the road by itself should not have loaded it any more than about 30 to 40 hp worth I'd guess. When the pump is turned up, you won't actually see that until you put more than 120hp load against it. There is some reason the engine is not getting the air moved thorough it like it should. Or the timing could be wrong, but it would be hard to start. I'm in N IL too. Where are you located, and who was the shop you took to dyno? I may know them. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 8:57am
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Ed, I do have a muffler. It was brand new, paint wasn't even burnt off when I bought the tractor. Previous owner said it had a cobbled stack op the cab corner that he didn't like. Starts fine above 40° or so. Gotta be plugged in colder than that. I am just east of Mendota. I will send you a private message after I take a look at my turbo and try to get a positive ID on it. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 9:20am
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In my 2013 Shoup catalog, they show their part number AC8058 turbo fits AC 200, 7000, 7020 and combines L and M2, replaces 4007187 or 4008214. $689.00 Gerald J. |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 1:04pm
| I pulled the elbow off of the turbo and took a look. There's a fair amount of side play. On the intake side, there's a few scuff marks where it looks like the compressor wheel has made contact with the housing. There is no black paint anywhere on the compressor, and the only identification I can find is a casting number M11 and AirResearch. |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 6:02pm
| There's an intake manifold leak. If I spray ether at the gasket while cranking the motor, it will fire with the fuel shut-off pushed in. So, hopefully it's just going to cost me a gasket and having the manifold looked at by a machine shop. |
Posted By: victoryallis
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 6:10pm
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Make sure you didn’t rub a hole in the steel pipe between the aircleaner and turbo. ------------- 8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760 |
Posted By: Shawn PA
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 6:41pm
| I'd say if there's any play in the turbo like you explained I'd think it needs replaced. Especially if it's hitting the housing. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 8:28pm
| Valve adjustment can have an effect on how it runs and smokes. Everything has to be right on the money for the tractor to perform right I think the Doc said. You can tweak the pump. You do that and then it's the turbo. Then it's opening the valves up a little, then something else. Most mechanics today can't do that today. So you need to set down and figure this all out yourself, and ask questions like you're doing. Very interesting read and I hope you get it. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 8:31pm
| Oh, I forgot, how many guys do you know that knows how to adjust the valves? Not very many I imagine. |
Posted By: Michael V (NM)
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 11:10pm
| Adjusting the valves on a 301 are NOT done with the engine running...bring it up to operating temperature, adjust the valves by baring the engine over.. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 12:06am
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As you correct these known issues (intake gaskets, turbo, valve adjustments, timing), it would be interesting to watch how it's dyno & boost perform differently per each fix. So maybe without fixing anything, drive it the hour to dyno. Dyno it again for a new unfixed baseline. Then wrench-in intake gaskets and dyno again. Then wrench-in new turbo and dyno again. Then wrench-in valve adjustments and dyno again. Then wrench-in timing and dyno again. I know right, I asked for too much. PS- Take welding gloves to safely handle hot engine components while wrenching on it. #@&!! |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 9:02am
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The turbo on the 7020 was a TO4B80 with a .6 A/R intake and a .58 A/R ratio on the exhaust. The 200/190 and other non intercooled versions had a .69 exhaust A/R ratio. Thu the years some power plants had the smaller exhaust housing for a bit more boost - as in some M2's we have seen and some stationary power plants that had lower rpm rated load. AND anytime one sees where the compressor wheel had contacted the scroll - you have a bad turbo.. ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: joe
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 11:50am
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It would seem to me that if it blowing lots of black smoke, the problem could be in the injectors or pump, but with only 10 psi boost, I would certainly be looking at the turbo first, given that it is well out of spec. The thing that bugs me about the spec that Allis provides is they don't list PSIA or PSIG. ( I looked at it in my manual, and it's just listed as PSI) Today, boost is mostly given in PSIA, which would make 10 PSIG right on the money. 24PSIG isn't way out of wack though, so I'd tend to treat that number as believable. The Dr. may have practical experience with it though. He may have actually seen a 7020 make 20+ PSI boost.
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Posted By: nick121
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 9:11pm
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Well I wouldn't be putting that $300 ebay turbo.. just asking for trouble in my opinion. Don't have a 7020 but run a M2 combine and F2 and 7040, While they are known for black smoke, I have never noticed excessive smoke unless under heavy load. M2 gives off smoke but more of a haze.. A cloud when going from low idle to wide open. It has a 301 turbo charged 130 hp at the fly wheel, so not as high as your 7020. The boost gauge on the M2 will be around 15 psi when it's under load. Maybe you have a boost leak somewhere? Restricted air filter? Injectors but that doesn't explain the low boost psi.
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Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 10:07pm
| If you had a boost leak at 10 PSI I'd think you'd have a significant whistle on the compressor side. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 10:55pm
| About ten replies back he said the intake gasket is leaking. |
Posted By: allis g
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2018 at 8:03pm
| Don't know if this guy can help but I know a Turbo guy in Lake Havasu City Arizona. His name is Tom Spictich (might not be spelled correctly). His company name is Turbo Research. He really knows the business. |
Posted By: WD45Diesel57
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 7:30am
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if the intake gasket is leaking that's the first thing I'd fix, that could explain low boost and lots of smoke. ------------- 1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100 |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 3:41pm
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I took the manifold off this morning. The bottom half of the gasket was crumpled up in front of the intake ports. So, there was NO gasket across the entire bottom of the manifold. So, I am surprised it had any boost pressure at all. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 3:48pm
| And, when there's a leak like that, it's kinda hard on the turbo as it is constantly over speeding due to low back pressure. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2018 at 5:30pm
| All floating bearing turbos are kinda loosey goosey when grabbing shaft. I was told you should not be able to make wheel scrape housing.If you can,it needs replaced. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 9:52am
| Been almost a week. How much boost now with a good intake gasket ?? |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 9:52pm
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hey Doc. Several times in the past we have had issues of low hp and smoke and found the large plugs blow out of the intake manifold.. especially on combines. Ever seen this? I don't remember an intake manifold blown - but just had one do it on my old turbo'd 185 very ... rare..... ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 2:30am
| Did you check the manifold for flatness? If you don't have it back on, it might be a good idea. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 7:03am
| Intercooler manifolds blow gaskets at back quite often. MACK |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 7:06am
| Yup....seen plugs that fell out before. Have replaced a few intake to cyl head gaskets on the 7050-60-80's before, but never one on a 7020. |
Posted By: Blustery Knoll Farm
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2018 at 9:51pm
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The results are in. I've been so busy using it the last couple days, that I haven't had time to check back in here. I did take the manifold in to my local machine shop to have it planed, but the machinist checked it out and found it to be in spec. as is. I got it back together last Friday and used it for hauling some manure over the weekend. It smokes a lot less, and builds boost a lot sooner. If I load it down to 2300 RPM with the brakes at WOT, it will build boost a little over 20 PSI. Thanks so much for your help. This sure was cheaper than having the pump and injectors rebuilt :) |
Posted By: nick121
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2018 at 5:39am
| That's great! Hopefully she keeps running good for you know. Once again shows how helpful this forum is. |