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Spark Plugs

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=146919
Printed Date: 28 Sep 2024 at 10:39pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Spark Plugs
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Subject: Spark Plugs
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 5:01pm
I've always run Autolite 295 plugs in my WD for years and never had a problem until this last plug change a few weeks ago.  I noticed it didn't seem to run as well as it usually did, but thought it just needed warmed up a little.  Well, this morning I started it up at -20C to plow snow and couldn't get it to run on any more than three cylinders and when opening the throttle it backfired quite a bit.
I pulled the new plugs and one was quite oily, but not black.  I checked the boxes and they are now made in China!! AW CRAP!!
 Any I had in the past were made in Mexico or USA.  I installed an old set of 295's that I had cleaned and regapped that were made in USA and the tractor ran like it used to and I pushed snow for the next 3 1/2 hours with never a miss.  Guess I have to find another type of plug or keep lots of good USA made ones on hand!



Replies:
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 5:12pm
I now use NGK. B6S and find the quality to compare to American made plugs from 20+ years ago.

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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY


Posted By: rustyorange45
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 5:42pm
NGK in everything I own with an engine. Chainsaws, mowers, trucks, tractors. B-4 is plug # I use for CA and WD45.

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1953 WD45 WF/Model 90 Loader, Oxnard Rear Blade, 80R Mower, Model 209 Disc, WD Rear Mounted Scoop, Model 184 & 160 Rotary Mowers, 1952 CA NF/L306CA mower, 1953 CA WF/Model 8 Loader.


Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 7:05pm
We'll be up the proverbial creek when Japan starts farming their stuff out to China.
 
Edit: Cross reference for the Autolite 295 shows as a NGK B4.  The B6 is a couple of heat ranges higher. Probably doesn't matter in a tractor.
 


Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 8:25pm
I have also started using NGK plugs as well and have had good luck with them so far.


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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080


Posted By: cpg
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 10:10pm
I have a set of Champion J8C's in my WD and it's my snowblower tractor and haven't had any issues with them. Same with my B.


Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 11:03pm
If you can find an old spark plug tester, where they put them under pressure and then run spark and you can see how it sparks, you can eliminate the bad plugs right there. Even test the new ones.
  A story my uncle told me, He had bought a 68 Chevrolet brand new and at 30,000 miles, he had a tune up on the car with new AC plugs. Again at 80,000 miles he told the Chevrolet service department that he wanted a tuneup and use AC plugs in it... picked up the car and went home... didn't run right, popped the hood and there were Champion plugs in there. He was not happy, took it back the next day and told the service dept that he specifically told them to put AC plugs in it.  And the nitwits tried to tell him the plugs were good.  That infuriated him, and he growled at them that they take the plugs out and put them in their tester and if everyone worked perfect, he would shut up and pay them for their service ... But if just one failed, they owed him free replacement with AC plugs tested and a genuine apology.  They tested the plugs with 30 miles on them and found three bad plugs... The service man went to the bins and pulled out another box of champions and started testing them and found two in that box... Then sent a fellow to the parts store to get AC spark plugs for the car... That was the reason why they had put Champions in, they had them on the shelves but were out of the AC plugs.  They checked the AC's and not one misfired at full pressure.  Plugs were put in and everything was retested on the car ran like it did, smooth. The establishment apologized and said that from then on they were going to test every plug that they put in.
 As for the car when it needed a tuneup, new points and condenser was put in, and the plugs checked and regapped. He drove it to 130,000 and then sold it to my nephew and he drove it to 180,000 when the transmission quit.

  We had one of those "Champion" experiences here too.  Back around 1975, I bought a set of Champions for the D17. Spring time and dad was plowing and had come in for dinner. I went and did a 'tuneup' on the tractor, new points, condenser, rotor and plugs. He went out to plow and about 20 minutes later he came hustling home and he was mad... He says, "What the HELL did you do to the tractor!!!?"  I told him...  He said put the old plugs back in... I regapped the old plugs and put them in. He went back out and plowed until he was done and came into the barn while I was choring... I asked how the tractor ran with the old plugs... 'Good' he said, Don't buy anymore Champions.  


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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2018 at 11:38pm
I've never heard anything good about Champion, myself. My B had them in it when I got it, and it ran like a dog. A set of Autolites fixed it. 
Right now I'm running AC R45's in it, and everything else. No real issues yet. 


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 8:28am
Not trying to say anything against Creston, but, I heard someone say say not to use the resistor plugs in our old tractors. Something about the extra resistance was hard on the rest of the system. Would burn up the cap and rotor, or they would ruin the coil.

I'm have a new set of AC R45 plugs laying on the shelf. Haven't put them in for that reason.

Maybe someone could clue us in more on this.


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Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 12:13pm
Very hard on the magneto, extremely hard on them with carbon core wires...
  electric ignition/distributor and coil are made to handle it... or are suppose to be...
... have heard some of these new foreign made coils don't work to well either.
 WD45 has R45S   and in the 170, it has R45XLS in it... all the tractors have copper core wire
 The R stands for resistor, and that is a gap inside the porcelain..  Does about the same thing as holding the spark plug wire away from the plug far enough till it jumps the gap and makes the fowled plug work...  basically making the spark intensify to jump the gap thus when it goes across the electrode to ground, it is just a hotter spark.


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He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."


Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 1:37pm
Though Pertronix wants you to use resistor wires when you use the Pertronix II system. That system has a “brain” and I suspect the brain doesn’t like RFI.


Posted By: tractorboy
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 5:58pm
after many sets of 295s, I stumbled upon a company called A L Doering spark plug co. my wd 45 is worn out & fouls 295s pretty quick.  I found some on flea-bay, a lot of  30 plugs for around 30.00. One set usually lasts 2-3 yrs, I clean'em then then go bout another yr before i replace. The box looks to be from the late 50s or 60s, dont know if they are still in business. I do know im pretty much set for spark plugs !!!!  they are called Aldor disc-matic  size 6 H  for wd 45.  made in Lindenhurst NY    


Posted By: polarbear
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 6:20pm
I PUT r-45 AC in my wd and wc work great


Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 6:28pm
I'm going to go in to my local Napa store tomorrow where I got the plugs and see what other lines they carry.  The owner is a good friend of mine and we will look through the catalogs and see what we can find and where they are made. 


Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 10:47pm
Resistor plugs, and resistance-type wire is not a 'performance' choice, it is a design parameter requirement.  It's not a 'simple' electrical concept- it's high voltage/high frequency electrical discharge physics, and it's occuring inside a contained pressure environment that's heavily filled with stuff that isn't just natural every day 'air'.

Important to understand that while the hot-rod performance supply houses and their suppliers will marked products based on 'voltage', the voltage at that wire is only at very high voltage up UNTIL the time the arc is struck.  At that moment, the arc voltage drops to nothing, but the CURRENT jumps through the roof.  It's because the resistance of the spark plug gap is very high until it hits a critical point, where the gases in between the plug electrode and ground reach a high enough voltage differential to 'excite'... the gases glow, and become extremely conductive.

The presence of resistance limits current in a circuit... specifically, AFTER the arc has been initiated.  In the case of a spark plug, it determines how rapidly the coil's magnetic field is allowed to collapse once the arc is struck.

A common misnomer is that when the plug fires a coil, the arc will only strike once.  This is NOT the case, although, it's what the ignition designers would 'prefer'.  Light the mixture off properly on the first attempt, then be done with it.  Not the way physics like to play though.  Instead, the coil 'reacts' a bit... it swings like a pendulum a bit, before it finally assumes zero state.

On a magneto system, the 'magnetic field' that is being built and collapsed, is created by mechanical action of the mag armature, and the ignition points.  The field doesn't need to be rebuilt, because it's a permanet magnet.  It just needs to be properly phased to the points and rotor.

On a battery-coil system, the magnetic field is BUILT and collapses by the making-and-breaking of the coil's primary winding.

In the case of resistance in the SECONDARY (plug wires and plugs) circuit, it does not prevent VOLTAGE from going high... it simply prevents arc current from going to infinite value.

The result of running resistance wires and/or plugs-  the arc that starts, creates a 'burn'... and this arc's 'burn time' continues from the time corona appears at the gap, until the field has not only collapsed, but after it's done OSCILLATING.

If you use resistance wires and/or plugs, the burn time will be extended, but the oscillation energy will be substantially reduced.    The oscillation energy will usually re-fire the plug a bit, and if you have a condenser and three, five, or seven other cylinders, well, that may wind up interfering with the contact points' need to line up for firing off the next cylinder in line.

Always use non-resistor plugs and non resistance (solid core) wires, with a magneto.
Always use resistance plugs AND/OR resistance wire with any battery-coil ignition system. Wink


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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.


Posted By: drobCA
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2018 at 11:51pm
always glad to see there's a DaveKamp posting 'cuz that means I'm likely to learn more about the physics behind what makes stuff work.
thanks Dave and the rest of the great info posters.

I've got 6v magneto and 12v distributor systems and now know what to use in each... and why.


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3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not.


Posted By: truckerfarmer
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 6:44am
Thanks for the info. Now I can put those plugs to use.


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Looking at the past to see the future.
'53 WD, '53 WD45, WD snap coupler field cultivator, #53 plow,'53 HD5B dozer

Duct tape.... Can't fix stupidity. But will muffle the sound of it!


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 9:57am
The condenser across the points is part of the oscillation circuit. Changes the spark from yellow for a single arc without the condenser to a fat blue arc from the oscillation with the condenser is good and the proper size to match the coil. And really makes a huge difference in how the engine runs and produces power. And engine will run without a good condenser, but is very weak and sputtery.

Gerald J.


Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 12:29pm
Up until around 1970 Champion was a good spark plug.

Dusty


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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"


Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 2:16pm
Food for thought, DaveKamp: Resistive plug wires.  How long should they be?  Would a 4 inch wire from the distributor to the plug be long enough?  What about balance?  Should all the plug wires be approximately the same length? Pertronix requires resistive wires when using the Pertronix II unit, but makes no mention of resistor plugs.


Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 2:26pm
I don't know if it was imagination or what, but after I got the engine on my B unstuck, I couldn't get it started on new AL 295s (even after I fixed a mag problem), but after making some other changes and changing back to the 20 year old Champion J8s (cleaned), it started and ran well.  Could have been something else, but I suppose I should change back to the 295s and see if anything changes. 

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1951 B


Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 2:34pm
Modern Champion plugs seem to have two defects. One is that the center insulation ceramic inside the engine doesn't clean once it has been wet by condensed gasoline from cranking choked or covered with carbon from running choked. They have modified the vintage tractor plugs also by adding a series air gap on the theory that ALL vintage tractors burn oil and need more voltage from the coil to get spark in the oil filled cylinder. The two changes have made them junk.

Gerald J.


Posted By: johnkc
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2018 at 3:40pm
Nicely explained Dave! About the only thing I really understood was the word “Corona “ and I don’t think my understanding of Corona is the same as yours .....

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I support the development of hybrid automobiles and alternative fuels as I need DIESEL fuel for my ALLIS CHALMERS!



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