12 volt 1 wire alternater
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Topic: 12 volt 1 wire alternater
Posted By: 1947WC
Subject: 12 volt 1 wire alternater
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 3:25pm
| How do I know if my alternater is working? |
Replies:
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 3:49pm
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look at the ammeter ? not trying to be smart but an ammeter will show charge and discharge. A voltmeter won't tell you that and it could be a long time before is gets low enough to say 'oopsy'... you could turn on all the lights and see/hear what happens when you rev up the engine a bit, lights getting brighter is a sign the alternator is possibly working. ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 4:15pm
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If you measure the voltage you should be about 13.8 or so if working depending what type of alternator you have will depend on how to test - but on the older 10si units there is a hole in the back cover that looks like a mouse hole (U upside down) - by taking as small metal tool and grounding the tab behind this hole it will bypass the regulator and full output the alternator . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: 1947WC
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 4:16pm
| Thank you jaybmiller |
Posted By: 1947WC
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 4:18pm
| Thanks to the guys also for the help |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 4:51pm
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Get yourself one of those 6 light testers from Advance Auto or off ebay they'll test it.They have a magnetic back so you can leave it on something while you're running the tractor.Around $10 or $12 |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 5:13pm
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for a quick test on any car/ truck/ tractor , I just measure the voltage across the battery terminals with motor off.... should be about 12 - 12.6 volts .... then start the truck and again measure the battery voltage... should be 13.8 - 14.6 volts. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: tomNE
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 5:56pm
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if it's a gas burner or propane, just unhook the ground cable on the battery! ------------- AC from the start of my families farming career till the end! |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 7:54pm
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For a starting battery with with full charge specific gravity of 1280 the full charged voltage is 14.200 volts at 68 degrees F. Pushing a greater voltage like 14.6 guarantees overcharge and loss of water from the electrolyte. The charging voltage can rise a little from 14.2 for higher and lower temperatures. That is at the battery posts. If you use a voltmeter somewhere else in the wiring the voltage will be higher because of voltage drop in the charging wiring. The best indicator is the ammeter. After starting the charging current will be maximum, and if the voltage is regulated properly will taper to zero as the battery gets fully charged. The ammeter must be wired so that the charging current goes through it and also all equipment loads like lights, ignition, fans, etc that are discharging currents go through in the opposite direction. For negative ground the negative post on the ammeter goes to the positive battery post. The alternator and all loads but the starter are connected to the positive post on the ammeter. Sometimes you can see the effect of the alternator charging on the brightness of the lamps but that can be subtle. Gerald J. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 9:13pm
| Touch the back of rear bearing with knife blade. If it is a magnet it is working. MACK |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 5:32am
X2, on what mack says. However it can magnetize, with a bad diode or diode cluster(internal regulator) Do NOT pull the ground or hot wire off while running, this will blow the diodes in an alternator. Might be OK to do on a tractor with a generator, but NOT on one with an alternator...
 |
MACK wrote:Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 10:44am
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Yeah, diyDave is right. I pulled the battery cable off.my Town Car one time.to.see if it was charging and blew the ecm computer out. 365$ just for the part. Expensive lesson! ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 3:29pm
Jay is right to a certain extent. Here's what you need to know. Pretty simple. With a Voltmeter installed the normal charging rate is 13.9-14.5 Volts. 14.2 being ideal. If the needle is in that range, your good and everything is normal. If you make a habit of monitoring the Voltmeter, and its showing a charging rate of below 13.9, its undercharging. This will bring to your attention that the charging rate is down and the Battery and the system is not getting charged correctly. If its above 14.5 its overcharging, and there's something going on to cause that. Pretty simple. No guesswork involved. You don't have to be an electrical engineer or master mechanic to understand that. Now, if there is a short (load) on the system, the Voltmeter will show a very high charge rate telling you something is going on and it needs to be looked at ASAP before smoke and flames appear. Now here is where Jay is correct. With an Ammeter down stream of an Alternator, if there is a short, the Ammeter will let you know theres a problem even quicker than a Voltmeter because its already burning and on fire in the instrument panel that's located between your legs. So yup, the Ammeter will actually show you more than a Voltmeter would. No doubt about it.....  Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: cdon_FL
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 7:46pm
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I have often wondered why GM continued to make multiwire alternators and use them on millions of cars and trucks long after the 1 wire setup was figured out. (?) Call me paranoid, but I have always used the multiwire alternators when doing a conversion. My thinking -- must be something "negative" about the 1 wire alternators. ------------- Chris in NE Florida |
Posted By: cdon_FL
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 7:52pm
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Another way to check for charging is to pull on your headlights and see if they brighten even a bit when you throttle up from tick over speed. Granted, this method is more qualitative then quantitative. And works way better when it's dark out. ------------- Chris in NE Florida |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 9:10pm
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The multiwire alternators can easily be wired so the internal voltage regulator works off the voltage at the battery or near the battery so that voltage drop in the wiring is compensated for to get better battery charging and starts charging with the engine at idle as soon as the engine is running and power is applied to the alternator start terminal. A one wire alternator samples the voltage at the alternator output terminal and so doesn't compensate for voltage drop between the alternator and the battery and the one wire alternator doesn't start charging until it is spun up. One spun up it charges down to idle, but on my gas 4020 with the smallest available alternator pulley and something like a 7" crankshaft pulley it takes about 1650 engine RPM which may be over 5000 alternator RPM before it starts charging. That need for goosing the engine doesn't always make the simple wiring profitable. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 10:05pm
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Your thought process is correct. A three wire Alternator wiring system is always better than a one wire setup. With a three wire unit, you monitor the system with the voltage sense circuit. The Voltage regulator does its job in keeping the system (and the Battery) fully charged because it adjusts the Alternators output through the voltage sense circuit. A much more accurate and effective system in keeping all functions operating the way they should, at the same time keeping the Battery happy. A happy system is a reliable system. Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 9:18am
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The one wire alternator is easiest to install, but I'm not sure goosing a cold engine to get it to start charging is a great idea for engine life. And if you use the generator pulley rather than the smallest available alternator pulley it might take goosing the engine above its rated maximum speed to get the one wire alternator to start charging. Once started it charges pretty good all the way to engine slowest idle speed. Gerald J. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 11:43am
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I've used the CS-130 series of alternators, configured as 'one wire' and never had a problem( knock on wooden head..) HOWEVER I also used brand new wiring during the conversion. Have to think the IsquaredR losses can't be too much for 4' of wire. hmm.. I need an 'excuse' to buy some $2 voltmeters, be interesting to see how well they work. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 7:42pm
The only people that don't like one wire alternators and claim they won't work it seems are the ones that don't use them.I'm running 8 right now on tractors and have found most of the 'faults' supposedly with them to be totally untrue. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 8:25pm
I2R loss can be significant at 30 AMPS, even with 4 feet of wire. A half-volt loss may not seem like much when you put it to a component, but it is significant when you calculate the effect it will have on charging a battery. The good news is that as the battery charges, the current through the wire drops, reducing the I2R loss. When the battery is charged to the point that it is only calling for 5 AMPS, the voltage drop will be insignificant. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 12:10pm
2 wires from the regulator are now used for ECM control of the voltage, not necessarily the turn on signal. GEM MON and GEN COM. MON is the ECM's feedback from the regulator, COM is where the ECM commands the voltage set point. The days of over 14v being considered overcharging ended back in the late 90's. In extremely cold weather the ECM will command up to 15v to increase recharge rate and warm the battery. If the regulator sees no signal from the ECM but detects a spinning rotor, usually above 1500 RPMs, the regulator will set constant at 13.8 IIRC. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 4:02pm
You need to get one of the good 1 wire alternators off ebay for $60,I have 8 on tractors and every one will start to charge as soon as the engine fires up no matter how slow the throttle is set.Fired up the AC 185 today to see how'd it'd start after sitting for over 3 weeks fired right up and starting charging with the throttle slightly cracked up from idle.Battery didn't run down either in 3+ weeks(anther 1 wire myth). |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:19pm
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I don't know if you're referring to me with the comment on the people who don't like one wires is because they don't try them, I've had many a one wire on race cars, hotrods, etc. That's one of the main reasons why I tell my customer's to use a 3 wire. Has nothin' to do with not using them. Has all to do with handling loads in the system much more efficiently. The more loads you have in a system, the more you should be running a 3 wire system. Hey, if you're having good luck with the one wires on your Tractors, great. I not saying they don't work. They work more efficiently when the regulator can monitor the system when larger loads are put on the system. Obviously, you're not using a lot of power on board your Tractors while their running so they work for you. Nuttin' wrong wit' dat'.... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:10pm
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Most old tractors have very little current draw almost none if its a diesel unless the lights are used and if they are replacing a generator then any alternator is going to supply way more power than any generator ever did.When I started the 185 today it charged a lot for maybe a minute then the needle dropped back after it had charged the battery back up.So it must be 'monitoring' what needs current. An Old tractor ain't a fully loaded 2017 SUV so you don't need the same electrical capabilities. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:13pm
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The battery sets the charging current providing the generator or alternator voltage is regulated at 14.2 volts. As the battery charges the current decreases to zero when the battery is fully charged. The alternator regulator just controls the voltage for that to happen. A three wire alternator can be wired so the regulator senses the voltage near the battery so that wiring voltage drop isn't a factor. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 5:12am
So if you think the 3 wire is so good why haven't you put one on the 4020? |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 9:57am
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So far the one wire has worked adequately with simple wiring and with the small alternator pulley doesn't require over speeding the engine (only about 1650 rpm) to get charging started. The one wire I have can be connected with three wires. I used 10 gauge wire from the power connection of the alternator rated at 55 amps. I used silicone insulated wire because it would run hot and is close to the engine block. The resistance of that wire limits the peak charging current to about 35 amps according to the ammeter that I added to the 4020. That is not full performance for the alternator, but the original generator was only 20 amps so its a definite improvement on the 4020 gas original design. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 11:21am
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Go on ebay and get a one wire one from DB Electrical think you'll find that to be better,definitely will not have to rev your engine up to anything close to 1650 RPM |
Posted By: macvette
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 12:20pm
| Put one from DB on my A.C. 620 with the failed charging system. Stuck a volt meter on it in place of the ammeter, and starts charging as soon as engine is running. Sure is a welcome change. Have had it on for a little over a year, with a small garden tractor battery replacing the big auto size battery that was in this series tractor. Seems to work well. Has a snowblower on in the winter, and is not run very often, yet still seems to start well. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2018 at 5:40am
I'm thinking of doing the same thing on my Simplicity 9020. Also surprised someone hasn't tried to tell you that's its not working you just think its working(LOL) |