pull start a 180 diesel
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14432
Printed Date: 04 Feb 2025 at 7:52pm
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Topic: pull start a 180 diesel
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Subject: pull start a 180 diesel
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 4:42pm
| has anyone ever been able to pump up the power director clutch sum how so that it engages, that way the tractor could try to be pull started? i am a john deere mechanic and we can pump off the park brake with a porta power i was just wondering if i could do the same thing by pumping the power director either on to the high side or low side so that i can pull start the engine as to break it loose possibly or just try to start it? |
Replies:
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 5:50pm
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As far as I am aware, when the engine is off there is no hydraulic pressure to activate the clutch packs section of the PD, mine will not hold when parked to leave it sit in gear without having the brake locked engaged or the bucket loader stuck into soft ground. |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 7:57pm
| what im trying to do is lock the power director in manually with a porta power or something so that i could put the transmission in gear and pull start the tractor. i am aware that the power director will not engage without hydraulic power or a running engine. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:01pm
| Won't work....too much leakage around seals.....you'd have to keep pumping it up continuously and never exceed 400-500 psi or it could split the clutch itself. Also if you had the tranny in say 3rd gear and pulled it 15 mph the PD clutch could explode from over RPM's. |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:12pm
| i was gonna hook up another tractor to it and run off the scv's on it to power up the pd while pull starting it. my problem is the starter wont spin th motor fast enough or good enough to even prime the fuel system let alone start the tractor. |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:14pm
| and i have tried 3 different new starters and none of them start the tractor they will spin it 3 revolutions and then stall out i can let off the starter button then it will turn 3 more revolutions. |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:39pm
|
It sounds like you have an electrical problem or an engine about to lock up (I doubt the latter). Check your ground connections and the battery condition. What is your voltage dropping to when you crank the starter over? It shouldn't fall below 10 volts. It should be holding around 12.5 after being fully charged. It does take a while to bleed the fuel system on these engines. I would use the plunger pump to bleed as much as you can into the pump (I want to think there is a plug on the pump that can be removed to let out air, but can't remember right off, DrAllis will probably be able to correct/confirm this). Then crack the injector lines and once you get fuel and no air coming out of one, tighten it off and go again, the next one should be coming up. I have found the engine will usually run under it's own power after 2 or 3 of the injectors have been bled, then you can go ahead and bleed the rest while it is idling under its own power. What you are describing is not normal, I would take your battery in to get tested first, and if that checks alright, your starter, all after cleaning the terminals. You could have some corrosion up under some insulation in one of your battery cables. I hope this helps you get going. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: SIMPLICITY
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:39pm
| you may be able to try air pressure |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:44pm
| i dont think u read the message earlier it wont crank more than 3 revolutions, it has a new starter, 2 new batterys, all new cables my voltage drops to 10.97 on my multimeter, and my batterys jump right back to 12.7 vdc within a few seconds after i let off the starter button. i made sure my ground point was cleaned and i buffed the mating surface that my starter bolts too. and i noticed my positive cable gets hot real quick. |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 8:47pm
| well i was wondering about the air pressure thing also because thats how we test the 2 speed clutches on 30, 40, 50, and 55 series tractors |
Posted By: Dave H (NE)
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 9:00pm
| any chance you are building hydraulic pressure ? valves in neutral? |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 9:08pm
|
I wouldn't go pull starting that thing, even if you could. There's something not right and you risk doing more damage than good. Is this engine a fresh rebuild or something? It sure sounds like something is locking up on you and that's why you only get 3 turns. Pull starting it, if possible, would just probably cause some damage. Can you pull the injectors and try to spin it over with them out (so you have no compression). That will give us a better idea of where the problem lies. Make sure everything is in neutral as suggested above also, just in case you are building hydraulic pressure that fast. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2010 at 9:43pm
|
I agree with Hurst, sounds like something is dragging it down. My guess would also be hydraulic. If it were mechanical, I would expect it to not turn at all. Is there any way to unload or remove the hydraulic pump and then see how it cranks? ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 8:33am
| Sounds pretty simple to me, figure out why the engine does not turn over properly and correct the problem. The engine was designed to be started with the starter motor, all tractors operate this way, something is not right,fix the problem |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 9:41am
|
I would try pulling then have someone pump the porta power. The power director should engage with a couple pumps then the engine should spin the hydraulic pump after that to keep the power director engaged. Note: this advice is worth what you paid for it. |
Posted By: Brian F(IL)
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 10:15am
|
Do not try to pull start! Large cast housings/PD clutches have exploded when trying to do this. The last time I knew of one the situation ended with extended hospital stays, many surgeries, and lawsuits. The only winners were the lawyers. Dr. Allis gave you good advice; I'd follow it.
Brian F(IL)
|
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 11:12am
|
Yeah I agree. Do not pull it 15 mph try 2 mph with the tranny in 4th gear and the PD lever in high. |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 11:37am
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I don't think it's a matter of finding a way of pull starting the tractor. It's the fact that something is binding and that problem needs to be solved before you go trying to yank on the engine. What ever it is needs to be fixed and pull starting won't do anything but cause more damage, that is all assuming you would be able to build up pressure on the clutch plates in the PD. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: skipwelte
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 12:32pm
| There is a "rest of the story" here, Josh you need to figure why it turns over so hard. Pulling to start isnt gonna work, even if you did lock up the clutch and you dont blow it up, something else is wrong and it could leave a big hole. |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 6:31pm
| first of all hurst and skipwelte can go and poor word choice themslves, i have been a mechanic for many years and am smart enough to know i have something wrong. second of all i have pulled the hydraulic pump off the engine and it still has this problem, the reason why im trying to spin the motor is because i think i have surface rust on the cylinder walls. the tractor had been sitting for about 6 years and was partially outside. the engine only has 3045 hours on it so im ruling out the idea of bottom end engine failure because when i changed the engine oil it had neither fuel or water in it and no filings whatsoever. my next point is who in the hell would be stupid enough to pull something at 15 mph anyways i just want to pull it down my drive way at like 2 or 3 mph and spin the motor and get things lubed up again. i have sprayed yield and free-all down the intake to try to lube the cylinders up and dissolve the rust. i have pulled the valve cover and all my valves are opening and closing properly, i have not pulled the injectors yet as i ran out of time to work on it this weekend. i came to this site hoping to get some good old fashioned know how and advice not stupid people and stupid comments. i do appreciate the sensible advice i have recieved though. |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 6:33pm
| oh and by the way chris/ct u can go fall off a cliff with your dumb comment. |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 6:34pm
| I guess if you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question? |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 6:42pm
|
Josh, There are many people here that ask questions and many that give their best idea of an answer. Skip and Hurst and Chris all contribute to this page. No one on this side of the computer can know your abilities so most of the time if advice is given, there are also words of caution given just in case the asking party isn't a qualified mechanic. Your smart ash comments will get you nothing and I believe you owe at least 3 people an apology. Just my 2 cents worth. Charlie . ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 7:05pm
|
I'll just assume you're having a bad day (I've had plenty of them working on tractors) and put the bad part of that post behind me and continue to try to help you with some ideas. I've been inside a 301 and there are people on here who have been inside more of them than I have probably seen in my life. Can you give us a little more details on the tractor's condition after sitting. Did you find the tractor stuck and you are starting to get it loosened up? If you can, see if a friend will lend you a bore scope so you can actually get a good look inside the cylinders without pulling the head (those head gaskets are around $100 a pop, so I would try this in case everything looks fine). If not, I would strongly encourage pulling the head off, if for nothing else, a little bit of peace of mind. While 3000 hours may not sound like much, it could have been plenty of time for the sleeves to have pitted from cavitation and dumped coolant into the crank case (like I said, I don't know how much history you have on this tractor, so if you know the tractor was running fine before parked, this is probably not an issue). If that is a possibility, there very well could be problems in the bottom end in addition to the bad sleeves. Again, that is just pure speculation knowing what I know about these motors (that they are very prone to cavitation). Again, if you tell us what you do and don't know about this tractor's history, especially pertaining to the condition when it was parked and how you found it, that would be a big help. If you think you have rust in the cylinders, at least get a scope down there and make sure the walls aren't pitted if not pull the head and check for any other problems. Popping the pistons out to check that all the rings are in tact would be ideal, but that's getting pretty labor intensive and near the point of just OHing the motor. Fill us in and we can try to give you some more ideas. I am not trying to be condescending when I say don't pull start the tractor, I am saying that so you are not having to ask if anyone has a good used PD assembly. I have been around several different brands of tractors that had similar set ups and every manual has stated they should never be tow started as doing so can result in serious injury or death along with damage to components. I hope this is of some use to you and keep us filled in. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 7:13pm
| i understand your point mr ctuckernwil, but if you looked at my opening statements of this post i stated i am a john deere technician. therefore some people should also have to apologize to me i gave the appreciative comment on the end of one of my previous posts that i appreciated the sensible advice i was given. |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 7:30pm
|
I haven't seen anything on here that wasn't sensible advice. We all try to look out for each other on here, meaning a lot of times people will post warnings on something that may seem blatantly obvious, but it's better than reading about someone in the obituary too... I have learned a lot of what I know by reading the words of others on here and having them talk me through repairs, even when I have a service manual right in front of me. However, that service manual doesn't lay out every little bit of knowledge out there for you, and there have been numerous times people on here have saved my butt by giving me advice to things I thought I already knew the answers to. It's better for people to put everything they know that may in some way pertain to your problem than to just tell you only the little slice of the answer you are looking for and have you come back and ask why no one warned against the risks. If you just want straight cut answers for your original post: No you cannot tow start a 180 without causing damage and/or injury. Broadening from that a little more, if you suspect that the cylinder walls are rusty and that's the reason it's only going 3 turns before stopping, then all you will more than likely do by towing it (if you could tow it and make the engine turn over by some contraption) is break the rings. Does it make sense where we are coming from now? Maybe you will see our replies as a little more sensible. I'm trying my hardest to be helpful. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 7:41pm
|
hurst i can turn the motor several times by hand with a prybar through the starter hole so no my motor is not stuck, as for the cavitation problem like i said earlier i neither have nor had any coolant water or fuel in the oil when i changed it. |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 8:25pm
| Had a 190XT that a neighbor brought over here to "freshen up" for a tractor pull, he drove it over we changed the injectors and pump and put a bigger turbo on it went to start it and the starter refused to spin it fast enough to start, the batterys were poor, the cables a mess, so put new batteries in it, made new cables would roll but not turn fast enough to make it fire, tried either, a booster still wouldnt roll and drew tons of juice, so I figured the starter was junk, it was hot, so removed a new starter from my own 190XT bolted it on the neighbors would roll it faster but still not fast enough to start, just couldnt understand it. I had the valve cover off previously and adjusted the valves, and spun the engine over with a ratchet and socket it spun free, the guy drove the tractor here ran fine changed nothing that would have had anything to do with making it turn over so hard, finally gave up on it and told the neighbor he would miss the pull the tractor just refused to fire. 3 days later I decided to check it out more, put a wrench back on the dampner tried to turn it by hand like we had done in the past, and it was tight, dropped the pan and the #5 rod bearing had spun. It must have started to spin on the drive over here but the engine ran didnt knock or show any indication that it had a spun bearing, must have just started to spin as the tractor was shut down, and with the engine sitting cooling down having the bearing dry for a week while it was here must have been just enough of a brake on the crank as to not let it roll fast enough to fire, which in hindsight was a gift from god because had the tractor went to the track, more likely than not the engine would have gernaded. I know this isnt an answer to your direct question but I wonder if that isnt what you have going on. I have not seen a scope that is small enough to fit in the injector hole,we have tried, and if your rolling it by hand I would assume that the rust that may have been in the inside of the cylinder walls is knocked off, and if you have been squirting lube in there I would think by now the cylinders would be slippery enough to let the engine roll. Have had older WD45 that had rust in the cylinders but it would stop the revolution dead, and neither the crank or the starter could over come the rust spot till we removed the cylinder and honed out the rust, so I dont think that would be your problem. But much like the neighbors tractor, the last guy that had worked on the engine was a moron and pulling the engine apart yielded a weath of information on why this engine didnt run right, if you dont know the history of that tractor or why it was parked for so long, or who "tried" fixing it in the past you could have a bunch of issues lurking, hope this helps and I hope you get to the bottom of it. |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 8:28pm
|
Does it matter whether or not you have the clutch pushed in as to how many times it will turn over with the starter before stopping? Any chance you have access to an oil purger/charger. If it hasn't started in 6 years, I am thinking your bearings in the engine are dry and just binding after turning over at the starter speed a few revolutions. I have seen this happen on an engine that sat for a while before (not a 301, but a gas engine) from not having oil in the bearings. If you don't have access to this, I would pull the injectors and turn it over without compression and also try to find a gallery plug and poor clean oil into this to get that oil system primed and oil to the bearings. The way you describe it makes me think the bottom end is binding or something in the transmission is binding (which is why I am wondering if pushing the clutch in makes any difference). Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 8:54pm
| i can push in the clutch but im not 100% sure it is disconnecting becasue someone had stolen the starter from the tractor back when copper prices were high and u know the rest. the reason im not sure if it is disconnecting is because im sure the clutch got some moisture in it with an open starter hole to the flywheel. the lady i bought it froms husband finally died 2 years ago after being bed ridden since he parked the tractor so i cant get much insite on the whole thing. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 9:13pm
| Clutch pedal probably moves, but everything is probably rusted up in the clutch housing. Since you are a mechanic, why not take it apart to see what you are dealing with (including the engine)? The cheap and easy way does not always work. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 9:44pm
|
Mr john deere man, Just because you are a mechanic does not mean you have to be rude. Now I apologize to you for being blunt on that fact. Everyone that commented gave their thoughts freely to you, not expecting ears to be rolled backwards. How would you like me to berate you for being a mechanic that is going at this problem in a caveman fashion? No, I don't think we need to go there either. I had an engine that I could turn over almost 350 degrees and couldn't get it past top dead center. ... Carbon build up. had engine that would turn stiff on the starter and pry fairly easy through starter hole, engine condition was unknown to me. Took pan off and found main thrust bearing metal stuck to crankshaft. removed the material from crankshaft and put new thrust in and have been using the tractor since 1986, uses no oil between oil changes. another engine, would turn a few turns and lock up, some one had dumped oil into intake and when it started spinning, it would suck it up and then stop. while sitting the oil would go past rings. It eventually started but engine had a squeek in it... parts engine. then there was the one that would suck gas up from bad carb and washed the cylinders and got stuck then rusted. and another where water ran down the exhaust manifold and caused the engine to have bent push rods. And yet another where if the tractor did not start on the third crank, it would not start because battery would be hot and the cables too ... That was caused by a pole shoe in the starter having come loose and dragged on the armeture real hard yet could spin starter by hand and not think anything was wrong.
Like several others have said, find out what is causing the dragging on the starter.
Hope you have success,
|
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 10:02pm
| well thank you guys all of you i see everyone has gone soo far from my question of wether or not there was a way to physically lock in the powerdirector with hydraulics or pneumatics so i can pull the damn thing and get it were i want it. im sorry i must not meet several of you guys's mechanical know how "the cave man comment". this would have been much easier if my father who was a 40 year allis chalmers mechanic was still alive. |
Posted By: DeanSWMO
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 10:10pm
| Been around a 180 my entire life as well as worked with old time AC mechanics. It cannot be done all you will succeed in doing is tearing it up more. If it was mine I would take the head off and investigate a little more. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2010 at 11:46pm
| It sounds to me like you've already got enough answers on locking the power director up to pull it, Im with the rest of them, if it was made to be pulled they would let you know it. No matter what your problem is there a way to resolve it other than pulling it, but by all means it is your tractor so if you want to risk the life of yourself and whoevers helping you and risk the possible damage to the tractor I would say go right ahead but you've been warned. I haven't been around a 301 very much but if I was doing it I would pull the head off and make sure it didnt have rust in it if thats what you think is the problem and hone it maybe even re-ring it if needed. Ive torn apart engines that have set and people have tryed pull starting them, and have seen bent pushrods and so on...not saying that would be likely since you have already turned it, but Im pretty sure that if you took it to the local agco shop they wouldnt be pulling it around the lot with a contraption to pump up the clutches. This is just my opinion, and im sure you have probably had more hours working on tractors being a John Deere mechanic regardless of the color. I dont think anyone on here was calling you stupid. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2010 at 6:17am
|
DRAllis told you early on before things got ugly that you can't pull start it. He's a darn knowledgeable guy from what I've read hear over the years. I'd take that answer and move on to some of the other suggestions given here. You are taking things too personal. No one here knows you or just how good a mechanic you are so you are going to get some basic advice,you may already know, whether you like it or not. Don't get offended just for that. Now here is what little I can offer you. My 7050, not the same engine, was a hard starter. I bought it from a farmer who had just put a rebuilt starter on it. It started hard still. I put another rebuilt on it after I put new heavier cables. Still didn't start good. Took my brother 7030 starter and put on it and bam. Started like it had never started for me before. I had owned it for a couple years by that time. So went back to starter rebuilder, of course too much time had passed by since I bought previous starter, got 3rd starter and that's what fixed the problem. Two rebuilt starters in a row were bad. Hope that helps some. PS the 301 is a good engine and a 180 is a good tractor so may be worth going a little deeper into the engine if it comes to that. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: TexasAllis
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2010 at 7:49am
Just a shot in the dark. The tractor has sat for a while, any chance the PD clutch is engaged and stuck there?
|
joshjohndeere wrote:Posted By: FredW
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2010 at 12:45pm
| I guess if I was in his shoes I would feel the same because John Deere tech. guys dont like to ask Allis guys how to fix anything, seems they are above that. I will take exception to one I know now works at our local AGCO dealership, couldnt find a nicer fellow. I suppose I should take a hike also but just wanted to add support to the ones here. Fred |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2010 at 6:51pm
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im not above anyone otherwise i wouldnt have gotten on here and asked for advice. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2010 at 8:01am
|
Snap-On makes a bore scope that will fit through a glow plug hole for a 6.0L Ford. I think if it were me working on it, and removing the head was not an option, I would pull the injectors and shoot a top quality penetrating oil in each cylinder. Something like Kroil, BG's In Force, or 50-50 ATF/Acetone.
On another note, I'm surprised my D17D did not have any bad noises from the rotating assy. I pulled the crank and it was obvious it had set for at least the 15 years I was told due to the rust on the crank journals. The sleeves all had rust "stains" on them too.
Someone elses thought about prelubing the oiling system is probably a good one. You can "rent" one of those pre lube tanks at O'Reilly's. I would give up on the idea of trying to pull start if it were me. If you did find a way to put some pressure on the P.D. clutch, you're not going to know for sure it's holding. Me being an auto trans tech, I see what happens when hydraulic pressure is lost frequently. The P.D. clutch is very similar to what you find in an auto trans. I'm thinking it would be hard for there to be too much drag from the P.D. being in neutral to keep it from starting if the clutch disk was stuck to the flywheel. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2010 at 12:52am
| Any headway on this project Josh? |
Posted By: michaelwis
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2010 at 8:41am
|
WOW and some think the political forum is rough !!!!
oofta ! ------------- WD WD45 DIESEL D 14 D-15 SERIES 2 190XT TERRA TIGER ac allcrop 60 GLEANER F 6060 7040.and attachments for all Proud to be an active farmer |
Posted By: BennyLumpkin
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2010 at 11:36am
|
yeah did you make any headway with this?? Im real curious to hear what you find/found to be the problem..... ------------- Central PA Allis Express 1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2010 at 9:48pm
| hey guys i talked with a co worker he has been in the deere world for 49 years and dicussed what all u guys told me. i took off the new starter i put on it and might have the problem figured out. i can tighten down the inside bolt first and the starter cocks on me so we loosened up the outer and lower bolts alittle so the lock washer expanded alittle and it cranked over about 40 seconds this time before it slowed. soo i think im on the right track my starter or flywheel are binding somehow. will update u guys more as i progress. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2010 at 9:31am
| <<<wonders if shims are needed? |
Posted By: joshjohndeere
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 12:10am
| just an update on the 180 starting problem i puled my injector and found water had leaked into #3 and #4 cylinders i just ordered a new full overhaul kit and started stripping the block down hope to have her running by next weekend. i will update with pics of my progress and by the way i have to say thanks to all who gave me advice on here a coat of paint and 700 dollar overhaul kit and my $800.00 missouri 180 will be a runner. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 6:06am
|
Never had a starter bind up like that on any 180 thru 7000 series. Was the same starter used as the rebuild every time? I'm thinking the drive was bent? You got that baby cheap. Good luck and maybe you can post a video of it when you get it running so we can see what a $1,500 and new paint (not to mention some head scratching) 180 looks like. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |