INJECTION PUMP TIMING
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=143998
Printed Date: 12 Sep 2024 at 1:07pm
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Topic: INJECTION PUMP TIMING
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Subject: INJECTION PUMP TIMING
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 5:34pm
Have read numerous posts lately regarding pump removal/re-installation on different models(but am/was wathcing the XT 190 thread) and Ed said something that has me puzzled ;how do you time a diesel to within a few degrees? I am no mechanic nor do i pretend to be one on tv ,but pretty sure you don't hook a timing light up to the battery and #1 plug wire LOL! Just curios,thanks
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Replies:
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 6:36pm
| OMG NO ,, its easy, on an XT diesel theres a timing mark on the crank pulley at like a certain number when its timed TOP DEAD CENTER ; than you have to remove the Roosamaster timing window cover and there will be a thin line, that should be equal to the line on the stationary part in the pump, first time i done one I thought how complicated,, its not at all , worst part is dealing the umbrella seals |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 6:54pm
| The installing the pump is completey understandable, injEd said to leave mounting bolts loose to "tweek"final timing. How do you know how much to "tweek" without a tool,engine sound,smoke,hard starting? I am just asking about "DIALING" it in. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, we have beans in the field yet too |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 7:02pm
| Aline the 2 marks then its timed, supposed to rotate the engine 2 rounds then recheck , that's where the fine tuning comes in , loosen the nuts a little and rotate the pump till the marks line up; all the ones ive messed with 180, 190, 190 xt, 6060, 6080, D21, 220,s all have at least 2 degrees off thru this process but it must have been in Allis specs |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 7:09pm
| Thanks, as bad as I hate to say it, I took it to mean you could rotate pump assembly like a distributor to tweek timing. Told you guys I was NOT a mechanic LOL |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 7:14pm
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I have never stated to leave the mounting bolts loose and adjust timing with it running. I know some guys say "I've done it that way for years" and that is fine, but it is not an approved method of timing adjustment in the eyes of Vernon Roosa lol! The Roosa pump can seize if it gets crooked, and having it loose at the mounting flange can let it get enough out of alignment, screech! lol! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 7:31pm
NO SIR you did not  LOL!! That just was the way I interpreted your statement . I am pretty good at changing oil and filters though !! In all seriousness ,our xt is gonna need the pump gone through sooner than later,if we can't find a rebuilder local(haven't looked hard yet) do you work on pumps from out-of-state? The farm is in N/C IND, thanks and my apologies for mis-reading your meaning on the loose bolts.
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 8:49pm
| To get fine timing, always turn engine in direction of rotation to desired timing then check marks in pump. This takes the back lash out of the gears. Can make a few degrees difference in timing. MACK |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 8:55pm
| Starting to make sense now. Does 1 degree 1 way or another make a huge difference? |
Posted By: lowell66dart
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 7:19am
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Depends. STOP the engine and move it a little one way and see how she starts, idle's, etc. If there was no change or you felt it runs worse move the pump the other way. Sometimes it makes a difference. I like them to start well. I did my 200 and had never done ANY injection pump before. With Ed and the boards help I got it running great. ------------- AC 6080 (8030,7060,200,175,D-17HC, 6040,160,6140 all gone) Farmall 1066 & 656 Hi-Clear (for sale), White 2-62 High Clearance, JD 4255 Hi Clear. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 8:05am
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I work on pumps for people from all across the country. Many from right here on this board. As Mack pointed out, always check final timing when rotating engine the normal direction of rotation. One or two degrees can make a noticeable difference on a diesel engine. I always err to the side of more advance than less advance. So in other words, if spec is 18*, I'd rather be 19 than 17. Some engines may not like that extra degree, but most respond quite well to it. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: calico190xt68
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 9:52am
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This was an excellent question. After I got my 190XT running, I was too scared to mess with it anymore. These answers make me wonder if I should try adjusting it though. I have a related question to this thread. Would the tractor smoke more or less by making this adjustment? Or is it just starting and idle that is better. Would you get more horsepower out of this 1 or 2 degree change? ------------- 80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 10:22am
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If it hazes a slight amount of white smoke when idling, then a slight adjustment of timing will likely help. Advancing it in 2* increments is a good way to find what it likes the most. When finding optimum timing for running, may find it is harder to get started. The factory spec is usually a great place to start out with, and is usually a bit of a compromise in one area or another. When one is turned up for performance applications is when this is most important. Increasing a Roosa pump's fuel delivery has a direct affect on the beginning of injection of the pump. Turn it up, equals earlier beginning of injection. Normally a basically stock rebuild will run about as good at stock timing as it will anywhere. clear as mud? lol! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: LB0442
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 8:27pm
Here is the best thing I have used for diesel timing. I know this is out of most people's budget for hobby use. I bought it in the 80's for the 6.2 and 6.5 diesel's, I think it was 3 or 4 hundred then. Hook it up to the #1 injector line, hook up your timing light to the bar inside it and it transfers the injector pulse to the timing light so it works like gas motor. You can check it running and check your advance curve also. Really works great with a adjustable timing light. It has been setting a while little dusty.  |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 10:07pm
| On a AC a little retarded timing can make them start better. More like a JD or Ih lol. MACK |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 7:15am
| Most A-C engines from 1963 onward were timed pretty fast, especially if there was an advance on the pump. A D-21 for example was timed at 34 degrees BTDC and started not very good. You could retard the timing for better starting and then the exhaust temps would soar. A 7060 was around 38 degrees BTDC when you figure in the advance and you do NOT want it any faster than that. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 7:26am
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The digital timing meter or a light can only be used on a roosa system if you know what the meter needs to read. You can't put one on a D21 which times to 34*, and expect to see 34* on the meter, unless you can apply full load like on a dyno. The roosa pump beginning of injection varies with load changes. Those meters were designed for the automotive diesels which used Roosa pumps, but incorporated light load advance mechanisms, and they had come up with specific timing specs for use with the meters. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 7:28am
| All that timing light ever did for me was verify if the advance mechanism was working correctly or not. The actual timing numbers were skewed most of the time. |
Posted By: WD45Diesel57
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 7:29am
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that will explain why dads 185 starts so hard! when he had the pump redone, his mechanic buddy installed it and advanced it 3 or 4 degrees and now starts terrible, but runs awesome once running. my 7020 I have set at 18 degrees BTDC and it will start no pre heat or starting fluid on a 40 degree F day no problem! ill have to do some fine tuning on dads 185! I was always intimidated but diesels aswell but not anymore there the basic principle of a gas distributer, but need to be timed right for best results! ------------- 1-B's, 2-C, 2-CA's,2-WF, 1-WC,1-G, 3-WD's, 2-WD45, 1-RC, 1-D17 Diesel, 1-D14, 2-D15,1-D17 row crop,1-D19 gas and All Crop 40,60,66,72,90 and 100 |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 6:31pm
| This is exactly the info I was looking for! hanks DR. And INJ ED!! |
Posted By: FREEDGUY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 6:32pm
| should say , thanks |