712Shuttle Electrical Issues
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Garden Tractors
Forum Description: A great place to discuss the Simplicity and Allis Chalmers Garden Models
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=141196
Printed Date: 24 Nov 2024 at 3:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 712Shuttle Electrical Issues
Posted By: Albow44
Subject: 712Shuttle Electrical Issues
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 4:06pm
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So I FINALLY found a 1979 712 Shuttle just like my father had when I was a little kid. It ran and mowed great, until my toddler turned the key to on and killed the battery. I have since charged the battery and changed the plug, solenoid and breaker. It still won't start. Makes a whirring sound and that's it. My next thought would be the coil and condenser? Any help or insight would be appreciated. There is also an issue with the tranny, 3rd gear doesn't seem to want to move much. Especially up hill. Thanks!! Here is a link to a video of the start up sound... https://youtu.be/hlOhlMMprdQ" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/hlOhlMMprdQ |
Replies:
Posted By: Sliferxc
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 7:57pm
| Your starter is not engaging tap it lightly with a hammer and it should work |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 9:05pm
Sliferxc could very well be correct, but to me it almost sounds like the bendix gear is not meshing with the ring gear, sometimes an engine will stop in one of those awkward positions where the starter gear wont mesh. Op manually turn the flywheel a quarter turn then retry the starter. |
Sliferxc wrote:Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 3:22pm
| Thanks for the answers guys. I did have to manully move the starter to get it going again. Now, I'm not getting a spark. No voltage coming from the battery to the ignition cool. Changed the condenser and points. Still nothing and frustrating. Could the voltage regulator have gone bad? Or is a possible ground issue? Battery shows 12v and so does the solenoid. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 4:41pm
Its possible you forgot to put a wire back onto the solenoid hot terminal, this wire feed the ignition switch. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 9:22pm
| Nah, that wire is on there. I meant ignition Coil. No volts to the ignition coil. Stupid autocorrect. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 9:34pm
Will the starter turn over from the key on the start position. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 9:44pm
| Yes, the starter is no longer the issue and engine turns fine. There seems to be no voltage reaching the ignition coil on the points side of the motor. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 10:23pm
The wiring schematics are from the Simplicity equivalent machine. After looking at the schematic I suspect your problem is either a bad ignition switch or a bad connection where the dash harness connects into the machine half of the harness. After disconnecting the plug check for power on the black lead with the key on run.   |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 10:34pm
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I have found over time the grease used to lubricate the ignition switch become hardened creating a film over the contacts. Over the years there could also be an accumulation of dust and other debris. You can first try some contact cleaner, remove the ignition switch then spray in the cleaner via the keyhole then hold the switch upside down to allow the cleaner to drip out.  |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 10:53pm
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Could be, I hope so. I'll pick one up tomorrow and let you know. Thanks! |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 11:15pm
Before you do that, jumper a wire from the positive terminal of the battery the the positive side of the coil then see if the engine starts. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2017 at 11:19pm
| Ok, not to sound like a newb or a smart ass, what's the safest way to do that? Should I be expecting it to start or not to start when the ignition is turned? |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2017 at 12:07am
If the coil and points are good the engine will start. I might add with the jumper wire in place you have bypassed your neutral safety switches and the seat pressure sensitive switch if your tractor was so equipped. Just make sure the transmission is in neutral and your good to go. If the engine does start which it should with the jumper you have now narrowed the problem down to either a bad break in the black wire coming from the ignition switch leading to the positive side of the coil or the switch itself is faulty. If you have a meter or test light you can check for power by probing the plug attached to the ignition switch at the black wire. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 10:49am
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So the jumper wire didn't work. Points are brand new and set at .020 and the coil should be operational according to the voltmeter reading. Still registering no volts at the coil + from battery. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 9:05pm
Looking at the diagram above the contact points must be in the closed position to complete the power circuit. Did you try starting the engine with the jumper wire connected. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 9:55pm
| Yeah, the engine will try to turn over, but no spark at the points or plug. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 10:53pm
Going back over your first post, your toddler left the key on with power to the coil. I suspect the primary winding in the coil burnt out. Change the coil problem solved. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 11:17pm
| Shouldn't there still be power going to the coil though? When I measure the wire from the battery to the + side of the coil, I don't get 12v as I should. I get nothing. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 11:28pm
Any kid from the 50's and 60's could steal a car in less than five minutes using the jumper wire from battery to the coil. If you connected a jumper wire to the battery that wire would be hot, connecting that wire to the positive side of the coil would energize the coil giving you ignition to run your engine. Hot wire to coil, engine still not willing to run, your problem is between the coil and contact points. You installed new contacts so we'll eliminate those and assume the coil is bad. Your toddler left the key on killing the battery, during those long hours with power to the coil the primary windings burnt out. This is how a run an engine on the test bench. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 11:36pm
| Oh yeah, I forgot about the jumper. So, there's a good chance it's the switch and the coil. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 11:44pm
Yea by using the jumper wire we're eliminating the key switch for the time being bypassing every safety switch etc. in your mower. We're using the process of elimination to source a problem. Since the starter still works from the key switch you can use it to turn the engine over once the jumper wire has been installed. I'm not so sure I feel comfortable giving advice anymore. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 1:29pm
| It was the coil. Thanks. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 11:41am
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Changed the coil as stated above and it worked, for one mowing. After that, wouldn't start again or even try to turn over. Replaced the coil again, the wiring harness and the ignition switch. Still the same thing. When I turn the key, nothing. Battery appears to be fully charged, reading 12 volts. I'm once again at a loss. Any advice is truly apppreciated. Thanks |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 11:59am
Have you tested the battery under load.  |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 4:45pm
| Yeah, battery is good. I do see what appears to be a ground wire that attaches the same plate as the ampmeter, but doesn't seem to fit anywhere else. It's under the dash to the left of the ignition switch. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 7:31pm
Why, because your volt meter says 13 volts. I gave you the wiring diagram above, use it to diagnose your electrical issue. |
Posted By: rustydollar
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 10:46pm
What color is that loose wire. If its a ground wire as you say then there's two possibilities the power lift switch and the hour meter both have grounded wires under the instrument panel. Its not uncommon for some deceitful person to disconnect the hour meter to keep the hours showing low for a latter sale. The again maybe your tractor never shipped from the factory with an hour meter and that loose wire is surplus. The wiring harness's from the factory are made to accommodate all the factory options whether their installed or not. From the starter solenoid there's a red wire leading to the ammeter, somewhere between the ammeter and solenoid there's a circuit breaker attached to that wire in-line.. Bad circuit breaker in the red wire you wont have power anywhere except the battery lug on the solenoid. Beyond that nothing. Now that your familiar with jumper wires, male up another one long enough the temporarily replace the red wire connected to the starter solenoid to the ammeter. If the tractor responds with the temp jumper wire in place you'll know the circuit breaker has gone bad. |
Posted By: Albow44
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 1:53pm
| Turns out it was a bad ignition switch from Amazon. Returned it and put on the replacement and it fires right up. |