670t question
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=140462
Printed Date: 15 Nov 2024 at 10:11pm
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Topic: 670t question
Posted By: mbtek
Subject: 670t question
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 10:23am
| I have a Gleaner M3 combine that has a A/C 670t engine. I had to have the injectors rebuilt and when I go to the AGCO parts book or the dealer parts counter they show copper seals that go under injector and I got some of them. The injectors of the actual engine dont have these seals, there's nothing there but it does look like copper. I looked in the hole with a borescope and I cant see any seals. It didnt look like it had ever been apart and it didnt leak any compression. I think I'm missing something. |
Replies:
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 10:38am
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I'm not a diesel engine expert, but seems to me that with the high compression and combustion pressures of the diesel that the copper seals are important. Nothing softer can survive. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 10:43am
| If your oil filters are on the grain bin side of the engine, that is NOT a 670-T.......it is a 649 T or 649 I.......no copper washers used. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 4:22pm
| The more I think about this, the more ruffled my feathers get. How any repair shop (AGCO dealer or an injection pump shop) could not simply look at your old injectors and with some sort of KNOWLEDGE of (A-C) diesel engines know that copper washers weren't used, really shows how ignorant (uneducated) some parts/service people are. Had you tried to use copper washers and managed to get the bolts started and torque them down, you would have ruined the copper injector tubes and be looking at cylinder head removal or replacement to get fixed right. |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 8:31pm
|
just curious , what was wrong with the injectors??? ------------- When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money.. |
Posted By: mbtek
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 1:30pm
| The oil filters are on the grain bin side, the only thing the parts people asked me was the serial # of combine which I gave them. I couldn't find any sort of engine number but they didn't ask. They used the AGCO parts book on line and my injector looks just like the one on page 144 which is for 670t and shows a seal. The one on page 136 for the other engine doesn't look like my injector. I thought it would be a good idea to ask somebody with A/C experience. The fuel injection shop I use went off the Bosch numbers on the injectors to repair them. |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 5:15pm
| the first clue was it's an M3. Which was never available with a 670. If it had one, somebody took out the original and replaced it. If your AGCO parts guy looked up the parts, it wouldn't show a 670 |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 7:29pm
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M3 were available with the 670T in the last year of production as Allis had the engines built and wanted them gone. I saw 2 new ones in 86 or 87 on dealers lots.
Crazy engine for the combine I know but they did it
|
Posted By: mbtek
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 7:36pm
| They did look them up, I was watching them and then I looked later at the same web site they used which was the AGCO parts catalog. It shows all of those engine under the M3 maybe it's not correct. Any way I think that one of the cups under the injector was leaking compression badly enough that it needs to be replaced, this cylinder #2 was miss-firing. This combine had a history of fuel and fuel tank problems before I got it, and since I've owned it everything was gone through except the injectors. That injectors holes were plugged up but I dont think thats all of my problems ,you can see a blown out area and if you look with a bore scope closely theres no way I think its going to seal. How do you change those cups? |
Posted By: Amos
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 10:00pm
| To change the cups you pull the head and take it to some one that has the proper allis chalmers tool to press the new cups in. Every one I have seen that leaked leaked antifreeze into the combustion chamber especially when shut off. |
Posted By: DanD
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:43am
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The M3 and L3 share the same parts book so that's probably why they were confused. You have to remember that even a 40 year old parts man was 8 years old when AC was done and a 50 year old parts man was a Senior in high school. I find it's vitally important to just figure out the parts I need myself from the parts book listing when I go get parts for the AC machines because the guys there have no knowledge of the older machines. Not their fault and not holding it against them. Bet they know a lot about the new stuff which I know nothing about. Now, if you can find a 70 year old parts man...that's a different story! |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 1:00pm
| Here's a real easy way to identify engine.How many exhaust ports? 3 or 6? 301/649 has 3....426/670 have 6 |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 1:23pm
|
If you have a 649 with the copper cups, make sure you get the head checked for cracks before replacing any, and you may be better off in the long run to replace them all at once. They are available aftermarket from hy capacity last I checked. The other option is to replace the head with an older head that uses copper washers from a 2900 series engine. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 4:35pm
| I think what you saw was a 649 with an ambac pump. I sold the last L3 Allis had, still have my price book, and no 670 was offered . Not saying Gleaner may have put one in special order, anything is possible, but was not offered as an option |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 10:33pm
| Just a reminder that there was two different head gaskets used on the D2900 series engines. The head without the copper injector tubes used a gasket with the small diameter water passage holes. When the copper tube head was introduced in the seventies they added a new head gasket with larger water passage holes to increase water flow into the head. |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 11:04pm
| Good point Dan |
Posted By: ILGLEANER
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 1:48pm
|
M3 green stripe combines had the 426 in them seen one on the lot brand new . I don't care if anyone says different, sold them bought them or ate them, There were M3s that came new from independence with 426s in them. Not all of them, but there were some. ------------- Education doesn't make you smart, it makes you educated. |
Posted By: HagerAC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:00pm
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My green stripe m3 has the 649 in it, but I know of another green stripe not far from here that has the 670 in. They bought it new that way. ------------- 30+ A-Cs ranging from a 1928 20-35, to a 1984 8070FWA, Gleaner R52 |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 4:29pm
Thanks Hurst. I just want to make sure I understand correctly. 2900 has no copper injector cups in its head, but uses copper washers at base of injectors. 649 uses no copper washers, but does have copper injector cups pressed into the head. If I have that correct, do these same 2900-649 head changes also apply to its smaller brother, the 2300-433?
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Hurst wrote:Posted By: Peterson
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 10:39pm
Our late model 185 has the factory 649 with the regular old head. ------------- 7095-685I at 255hp, 8070-225HP,8050-210Hp,8030 with 155HP,220 with 670T engine with A-pump, 7580, 185 with 140HP, 2-6080's,6070, S4 D17,wd45,CA,st34 agco, S1 D17 with 3500MK2 |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2017 at 10:04pm
|
I'm not sure how the change carried over into the naturally aspirated engines at the end, so dounless check. On the turbo engines, the copper sleeves started with the 7000 and the 2900 MKII engine. I'm not sure when the change was made to the 4 cylinder little brother, as it wasn't widely used in tractors, just combines before the 6000 series, and I'm not really familiar with the combine side of things. I'm pretty sure the 6000 series engines were all copper sleeves from the factory. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2017 at 7:28am
| If there ever was (that is a big IF) a 301 non-turbo with the copper sleeved head, there weren't very many and they would have been near the end of engine production I'd guess. All 4 bangers with a turbo had copper sleeved heads, so at least from 1978 and up in the K2-F2 combines. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2017 at 7:29am
| 1972 model L combines had copper sleeved 301 heads. |
Posted By: ACjack
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2017 at 9:10am
I agree with what the doc said. I worked at the Harvey engine plant from 3-68 through 12-79 and never seen a D2800 (301 non-turbo) with a cooper sleeved head.
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Posted By: mbtek
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2017 at 9:31pm
|
Found engine tag and its a 649I, cleaned up the holes in the sleeves in the head, reinstalled injectors and now it runs fine, no leaks. The only problem having is that it runs rough after it first starts , it starts up quickly but runs like it has air in the pump for about a minute then super smooth. I took the fuel line off the pump before I started it the other day and almost no fuel came out . I wonder if the fuels bleeding off when it sits but I'm not sure how it works seems like there should be a check valve or something maybe in the transfer pump. It's had this rough running on start up problem problem for some time according to the previous owner. The fuel filter is higher than the pump. I'm not sure what to look at next |