Take a stab at my starter problem.
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13515
Printed Date: 02 Feb 2025 at 10:53pm
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Topic: Take a stab at my starter problem.
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Subject: Take a stab at my starter problem.
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 11:53am
| Our 220 has a starting (starter?) problem that has me scratching my head. From the time we bought it once in maybe 10 starts it would click but not turn, when it does this the ammeter shows almost max discharge, like 30 amps. If you hold the start button in the small wire going to the solinoid gets HOT quickly and starts letting the smoke out. Used to be it did this only once in maybe 10 starts and would start on the second try, then it turned to 2-3 now you have to click it a dozen times before it will turn almost every time you start it. We have done major upgrades to the electrical system during all this as the electrical wiring was a mess. Not one wire is original to the tractor now, all new including the battery cables and it has two new 4D batteries. The starting problem remained throughout all the changes. I assumed te solinoid was bad and replaced it but no changes. As you know we also recently changed engines and the problem didnt change with that either. With all the new parts it realy whips it over when it decides to tun over. Had the starter had a local shop that is real good, no problems (as I assumed it would be since it turns over real fast WHEN it turns). Cold, hot makes no differance. We by passed all the wiring and ran a wire from the battery to a switch and to the solinoid as a test and same thing. You can even use a screwdriver to jump from the solinoid and it just clicks. If it did nothing we would assume a open condition in the starter and replace it. What has me stumped, and the starter shop too, is the big time discharge at the ammeter when it clicks but doesnt turn over?? I am not ready to spend $300 for a starter and have the same problem. Take a stab at it. Im out of ideas. |
Replies:
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 12:12pm
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I am sure you have checked these, but dirty or loose connections? Bad ground between starter and engine block? Sticky starter drive? Maybe a "dead" spot in the starter? ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: skipwelte
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 12:28pm
| Sound like a dead spot in the starter Butch thats going to ground, thats why it shows discharge on the amp guage. Theres a few segments grounded, thats why it doesnt do it all the time, as the segments go bad it happens more and more. Evidently it isnt grounded enough to make smoke roll, but enough so the starter wont turn, once it turns theres still enough life in it to start the engine. Youve already replaced everything else that can go bad, so the starer is left.HTH |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 12:59pm
------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
skipwelte wrote:Posted By: BobHnwO
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 1:18pm
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My old TLB has done that for 10 years"click the first time you push the start button"I just hit it the second time.
------------- Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow. |
Posted By: BennyLumpkin
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 1:30pm
| Pull the starter and at least have it bench tested....may show your problem....need to maybe do the same to my WC |
Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 1:46pm
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Butch, 220 is much newer than my knowledge. If you can still get to the brushes, wait till it does it again, turn everything off. take the cover off the brushes, use a screw driver to turn the armature some, put all back together and see if it starts. While you have it off and before you rotate the armature, mark the armature. Red nail polish works if you don't think it will hurt your image. If you use a color that glows in the dark, people will think you are a tramp. Then the next time it goes bad, check to see if the mark came up in the same place. If you cant get to the brushes, you might be able to do the same thing by taking the end cap off. |
Posted By: wheatbreeder
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 1:51pm
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make sure that grease and dirty around the starting mounting is clean I had problems with a 170 to the start off it bench tested many times put the starter on the tractor would not work spent all one afternoon doing various things then finally clued in about the dirt around starter mounting would allow proper ground as the mount is up in the frame of the tractor and is not readily obvious Morley ------------- Farm stuff 8050,6690,175,F2,5050,WD |
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 2:41pm
| My 220 does the same, on a starter that is only 2 yrs. old. I'm thinking it may be the pushbutton switch, as mine just quit completely. I did the same as you, jumping at the soliniod but still just clicks. But when jumping at the back of the pushbutton switch it usually cranks right away. I hope to get a switch in a few days and try again. BTW, mine also about maxes the amp meter when this happens. |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 4:45pm
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I say you may have starter solinoid problems, an internal short that draws starter current from control wire. ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 5:15pm
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I agree with Ted above me. If your small wire is getting hot that fast it is carrying the load current. Even if the armature shorted the battery cables or brushes would get hot, not your solenoid lead. Gotta be something grounding in the wrong place, or your solenoid out post connection to your starter housing in post isn't good. Which posts were you touching with the screwdriver? Tough to diagnose from a keyboard. Good Luck. |
Posted By: Leonard
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 6:04pm
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Butch, have you checked or replaced the starter button. I am unfamilier with how the 220 starts but I had a similar problem in a Chevy pick up once and it turned out to be the starter switch had an intermitant internal short. Just about drove me insane looking for it. Replaced the ignition switch and never had a problem again.
Leonard
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Posted By: Ages Cat
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 7:33pm
| Check the integrity of the ground cable , where the wire goes into the lug at the frame. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 7:38pm
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It can't be a motor problem. The motor doesn't draw any current through the solenoid engage wire. I would look very closely for a short circuit at the solenoid engage post. If the solenoid can be opened, look to see if the engage post has been turned and is touching the metal case. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 7:52pm
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Yep, I agree the little wire that powers the coil in the solenoid shouldn't get hot at all unless there is a short in the coil. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 8:29pm
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Normally the initial current in the small wire is high, but is helped when the solenoid makes contacts. When the small wire is a bit too small it keeps the solenoid from smacking in solid to make contact to add helping current to the solenoid coil and connect the starter. Many a starter circuit has had that problem that starts with a switch on the wimpy side, smallish wire and dirty connections. The cure for 6 volt VW and 12 volt 4020 is an auxiliary relay. Something like a Ford starter relay or a 35 amp universal cube relay works. Run short heavy wire from the starter solenoid coil terminal (in place of the wire from the start switch) to the NO contact on the relay, and another short heavy wire from the C contact on the relay to the battery cable at the starter solenoid. Then wire the relay coil to the starter switch where the soleniod used to go. Which probably means grounding one side of the relay coil and letting the start switch supply 12 volts. Getting a full battery voltage to the solenoid is key when its just clicking. On my first 6 volt car clicking was also a sign of a bad connection, usually a battery post and clamp that needed shining. A connection that would supply 30 amps for the solenoid but not 300 or so for cranking. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 8:41pm
| Thanks for all the suggestions guys, we have a few things to try. The starter has been off the tractor twice. Once for a Butch(OH) inspetion and today to the real deal shop who said "you dont have starter problems". The problem has also stayed over two solinoids and a rewiring job. I happen to keep a Ford solinoid at the shop since we have a fleet of them around here and I can wire it in as suggested. One thing I have not had is a helper around to run the switch while I probe around with a meter, so guessing is where it lays for now. |
Posted By: Dave H (NE)
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 8:42pm
| Butch I may be wrong but it sounds like the starter drive may not be engaging the flywheel gear when this happens. does the drive gear have the right no. of teeth? also check the teeth on the flywheel. if the drive just butts the flywheel, you are feeding 2 windings in the solinoid, the pull in and the hold in . that will make the small start wire hot |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 8:55pm
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This is about the simplest circuit on a tractor. Power from the battery to the amp meter, other side of meter to the start switch,. through switch into the coil in the relay. the other end if ther coil is connected to the chassis (ground). No direct connection to the starter, so it doesn't even enter into the equasion. Try jumping from the battery terminal to the relay start switch connection with a heavy jumper cable.
What gauge wire are you using on the starter switch circuit? maybe it's too light for the load. Bob
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Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 8:57pm
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Also might remove the relay from the starter body and sand the paint off of the starter and remount. Bob |
Posted By: JPG AUSTRALIA
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 6:48am
| I'd say dave h is right,have lots of engines do this and when you do every thing thats been done here it will be the pinion not engaging properly.Starter will test fine on the bench,but if the back starter bushing has abit of wear in it the pinion can misalign and jam.We had a harvester that did this from new,in the end we had to file the starter holes to give the pinion more side clearance from the flywheel ring gear.Never clicked again. |
Posted By: PaulRoidt(WI)
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 7:22am
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Butch,
I regularly install starter relays in the key switch curcuit. Many starters send some current to the armature through the s terminal to rotate the starter gear to engange the starter solenoid main terminals to the armature. My starter supplier says it could be up to 100 amps on some starters. So by installing a relay you send the heavy draw through it rather than the key switch. Just put one on a Massy 399, done many 7000 series AC's, and most other brands that did not have relays from the factory. We have to remember the many of these old starters have been "rebuilt" many times over the years and will never be the same as when they were new.
Paul
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 8:47am
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Check the flywheel ring gear for a bad spot in it.
Did you take the starter back to the same shop? Same fella, same equipment, same results. Oh, wasn't you the second time, ok.
Ok on with next test ...Take a screwdriver and put between hot post on solenoid and switch terminal , OH, you said you did that already. That means its down in the starter area, if it still clicks. (clicking usually means low voltage/bad connections)
OK, Grab that dang screwdriver again and make contact with both the hot and starter post, does it turn ? (the starter) Now try your hot post to ign post again. What happens? If nothing happens now put a remote start button on hot and ign and press that button then stick the screw driver in between hot and starter terminal posts. Something should happen more than just sparks flying. If that last action does something, then your starter is in need of full inspection such as the starter engagement pinion, or lever... or alignment or bad spot on flywheel
Let us know what you find.
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Posted By: Dan (SE MI)
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 11:30am
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I agree with Gerald J., adding a relay to engage the solenoid may help. I haven’t worked on a 220, but I know 7580s came from the factory that way. We bought a 7580 last summer, and it developed a similar condition in the fall. At first it only happened occasionally, but it got to the point where you would have to push the button several times to get the starter to engage. It turns out that apparently the relay had gone bad, and the previous owner eliminated it. All the current to engage the starter solenoid was going through the dash push button and associated wiring. We went to NAPA and got a Ford style starter relay for about $20, hooked things back up like they were supposed to be, and haven’t had a problem since. By the way, we also have an older style JD 7520, and it is set up the same way. The key switch energizes a relay which engages the starter solenoid. Hope this helps. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2010 at 10:58am
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Man! This was back 5 pages already.
Just bringing this up to the front to see if Butch has found the gremlin in his starter system. I am kinda waiting to hear what he finds and what the solution was to fix it.
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Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2010 at 6:47am
| Sorry for so long in coming but just a note that the starter problem is now fixed. We had the injection pump off the 220 for corrections to the governor and had to wait on it's return. The fix (thanks) is an additional solinoid between the switch and the pull in solinoid on the starter. We used the common fender mounted "Ford" solinoid. |