226 common stroke numbers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132447
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Topic: 226 common stroke numbers
Posted By: Charlie175
Subject: 226 common stroke numbers
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 11:10am
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So how does one arrive at some the CI numbers I see for 226 motors? 283 390 341 others? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Replies:
Posted By: mjbower
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2016 at 12:00pm
| 226 is 4 bore 4 1/2 stroke so 4 x 4 x .7845 x 4.5 x 4 = 226 to explain numbers 4 = bore .7845 is just a common 4.5 is stroke and 4 is 4 cylinders. From what I have heard lately a common big CI stroke has been 6 inches. And bores are upwards of 4 5/8. Many combinations out there. It amazes me to this day the cubic inches that are made out of something that was as small as 201 CI.Hope this is the answer you were looking for. Lots of different bore and stroke combinations out there. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 12:07pm
| A little off topic, but I recently (within the last week) saw a complete, stroked rotating assembly advertised for a 226, but I can't find it now... |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 12:18pm
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http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82268&title=201226-rotating-assembly" rel="nofollow - Here's an old post from Marty Nelson (wi50) that might answer your questions about displacements. I was searching for the ad I mentioned in the previous post and found Marty's old post. If I find the ad, I will post it. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 10:25am
| Murphy's 6.5 stroke crank and rods are quiet common .Hayden Gibson has one now with 4 3/4 bores and 63/4 stroke |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 10:56am
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So that is 388 ci with 6.5 stroke and 4.75"? So 403 ci is the largest you can get out of a 226? Seems small when you see some of the ci numbers of JD, Case and MM. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Shawn PA
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 11:33am
| 4.750 and 6.750 Is like 478ci. That's pretty big and I can't see it staying together very long. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 11:34am
| It ran at tunica but think it collapsed a oil ring but that's just a hone issue hone another .002 out of it for dry block and that will stop |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 2:00pm
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So as Shawn from Pa. said, it didn't hold up. It needs to be taken apart and repaired. Please explain how an oil ring collapses from an improper hone job? |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 5:30pm
He's talkin with his buddy spanky, to se what he wants posted...
 |
O.P.S. Heads wrote:Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2016 at 7:08pm
... or he really IS... |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 7:32am
| Oil rings typically don't get a ring end gap as large as the first or second ring so when the piston to wall clearance isn't enough for a dry block and everything grows the oil ring butts and fails or collapses |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 9:30am
| If the oil ring "fails or collapses", I would think there would be considerable piston/sleeve damage. There isn't much room for pieces between the piston and sleeve, without catastrophic damage. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 9:41am
| Probably scuffed the skirt a little and anothe .002 out of liner will clear an it up if it did scuff . He flat schooled the allis Chalmers guys at tunica like he normally does |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 11:05am
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LOL, I see the entertainment twins are back. So do you really hone your bores oversize when you run into tight rings instead of fitting the rings or were you just seeing if anyone was paying attention?? |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 11:13am
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Good to see he's finally getting the decimal point in the right place after years of tape measure follies. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 11:44am
| Yes Butch I'm sure Hayden Gibson file fit his rings to his finished hone bore size .However that where we think it may have went wrong .Ross runs about .004 piston skirt to wall clearance bit you have to open it up several more thousandth when running a dry block |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 11:45am
| Marty I think it still got by birdsong does he still use you or has he given up loosing all the time and switched builders |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 12:25pm
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I had sold Birdsong a wd45 block that was line bored, other than that it was unmolested, some Farmall H rods and a set of cheap automotive pistons to fit stock sleeves I had laying around. I put a few kits together with for the weekend warrior who wanted to bolt together an engine for their 3.5-4 mph pullers and make 55-60 hp. No clearance work, cheap and common parts and they can still use the tractor for some light work if they wish and spend little more than the cost of an overhaul to build. But in spanksters world I suppose if gave someone some bolts or gaskets, then I must have built the engine. I am glad he's graduated past tape measures, found the decimal point and has now realized that the minute marks on a clock are further apart on a larger clock.... same degree but different distances. Lets all take a second and congratulate pankey on these achievements. BTW, not to brag or anything but take a minute and look at the NTPA results (look for the champions) you may find some of mine..... you know winning with the toughest pulling competitors in the country. That's right, Region champ, state champ, etc.... ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 12:50pm
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To answer the original posters question, 4.5 is stock. A common stroke would be 4.75" if using a Chrystler rod or 4.8 if using the Buda rod without welding a crankshaft. But if welding then the 5.5 fits nice with Chrystler or Farmall rods, there's common pistons heights that work well. Or if going with billet rods then 6" fits easy with room to spare, 6.25 needs just a little touch up on the block oil pan rail. On any engine, I tell people to measure the crankshaft to camshaft centerline distance. Lets just say it's 5" on an engine. Now we have 5" to work with, we could have a camshaft minimum shaft diameter of say 1", and lets say 2" on a crankpin. We have to leave just say .4'' clearance to fit a rod cap (thickness of cap at minimum point where it will intersect the camshaft, just say .300" for example), bearing shell thickness (.062 typically) and clearance to swing. Taking the centerline distances and the above sizes we have half crankpin diameter, 1" plus half camshaft diameter, .5" and the .400" for clearance and we have a total of 1.9" for our parts. Take the 5" distance of centerlines and subtract 1.9" we have 3.1" of crankshaft offset, or double that for the stroke length so 6.2" stroke will fit easily. But with my numbers above I would only have .038" of clearance and we need more than that for an engine to run, things flex. Now we have to look at the orientation of the camshaft and how the block is cast and what will fit or distances to those items from crankshaft centerline. The 201 and 226 AC blocks have a 5.25" camshaft to crankshaft centerline distance. With the above numbers, we could go to 3.45" offset or 6.7" stroke and clear without butchering parts to bad, maintain a 2" crankpin and rod cap with decent strength and not have to butcher the camshaft. Now we can see what rod cap angle we need to make the rod swing past the camshaft, if it is in the way, or if it's something in the block or how it is built. A flat spot on a camshaft or a flat spot on the rod cap will allow for more clearance, or a larger crankpin, larger rod or longer stroke depending on the application. Hence, shrinking the rod, the crankpin or the cam allows for longer stroke or more clearance, but what's going to last and what isn't? It's not rocket science, just basic math and geometry. Somewhere I had pictures of a simple tool I made to simulate different stroke lengths and parts. I simply turned a slug to fit the main bearing bore and put a 3/4" hole in the center through it, one to fit the rod bore for the rod in question and put a hole in the center tapped for a 3/8" bolt. A piece of 3/4 shaft with the end tapped for a 3/8" bolt. Now a series of arms or flat pieces of steel with a hole in each end and the center to center distance of that hole to simulate the crankshaft offset or (1/2 stroke length). Now I have a tool to use for various engines, rod and stroke combinations to mock up and do a quick check of what fits, how a cap needs to be orientated if making a billet rod, where to position bolts or what to clearance off a rod, block, cam, etc. I can do this before starting a project so I don't have suprises when done and can clearance an engine without having to assemble and disassemble the nice (and heavy) parts. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2016 at 1:58pm
| A mutual friend said you were down on cylinder head flow and hp this year on just a case so did all the school in this season help you for next .lom |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 9:04am
| do these big c.i. engines have the water jacket poured full of cement ? |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 9:39am
| My guess is that this great big engine was in a 3500 or 4000 lb. low gear class and failed. Am I right?? A well tuned 250 - 300 inch engine would gain the same results with a lot less headache and time and money spent. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 10:40am
Not cement as in Portland cement but they use various hardening materials in the blocks. Advantages are they can use very thin sleeves, it seals thing up and keeps the water separated from the oil and it also stiffens the entire block. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 11:58am
You're an even slower learner than I thought. Is there something in the water there that causes you to be unable to tell the truth? We all try move ahead every year and advance, going backwards on power doesn't win you a championship when the rest of the field is advancing. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 12:04pm
Typically they are filled with a hardblock, moroso filler etc. All those are grout based and hard on tooling should you have to machine into it in the future. I use a product called Rokblok (spelling I'm not sure on) but it's available from Competition Products in Oshkosh Wi. It's fiber based, use water and mix up to a pancake batter consistancy, it hardens in 15 minutes or so and is full cured in 24 hrs. I'll plug the holes in the top of the block and I have a little plate with a air fitting so I hook on the water pump port, I'll put 5-10PSi air in when I fill to force it anywhere things could leak and I pound the block with a dead blow hammer for a bit also. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 7:05pm
| From what I was told he schooled a 4.5 bore 6.5 stroke and anything smaller but how they were tuned is questionable but I would think people would have there tune on par at tunica |
Posted By: Robacpuller
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 8:11pm
| Marty Tunica must b the only place Panky and friends pull at.lol. Never been there but I wander what is so hard about pulling at Tunica. If it wasn't so far I would take my big cubes and have some fun with them. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2016 at 8:53am
| If it's to far just go to Maryland and pull against Brian Morrison allis and Brad Petersons case .lol |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2016 at 9:43am
The general layout of the United States is now included on the rather large list of things in life that escape you, LOL |
Posted By: Robacpuller
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2016 at 4:21pm
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I am going to waterloo iowa in February though. Weather permitting it is much closer for me 2 hrs. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2016 at 7:10pm
| so how many cubes , or bore on a 226 when it has to be poured solid ? and what about the head would some areas make for more porting ? bigger? thanks hud |
Posted By: joetom08
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2016 at 8:21pm
| Im building new motor now it will be 4 5/8. There is not much block left between sleeves so I'm going to rocblock it up to the bottom of water pump. Hope it holds together |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2016 at 6:52am
A good thing to remember when modifying engines for performance is that few questions such as those have a definitive answer. When I built custom rifles I was often asked "how far can I push speed before I get in trouble?" and my answer was always the same. Add powder one tenth of a grain at the time until it blows and then back off a couple. The smart knew what I was saying, the dumb would ask how the heck can that work???Same thing applies to building a hi-perf engine, if you run into an "expert" who claims different be careful about what you take as gospel from him. Marty (WI50) has always been good about pointing out power vs longevity and I am sure he willc hime in with an answer you can take to the bank. Some here boast about how big they build and might say "X" sleeve thickness is it,,,yet at the same time they sit on the sidelines among piles of busted up parts. The big gun mentioned earlier that won a class at Tunica is currently not running. How thin were his sleeves/ maybe the so-called expert will clue us in but what I know about the Allis block I would have to say DAMN thin. It was obviously hard blocked BUT hard block has it limitations too. Did his oil ring collapse or did his tin foil sleeves fail? I have my guess but that is all it is based upon experience with other engines that had very thin sleeves and hard blocked to back them up. Fact is you cant run tin foil for sleeve material and depend on hard block to save your dreams from destruction on past the test stand. If you are doing nothing but pulling then hard block has many pluses but also carries some baggage that cannot be ignored, Marty also has made mention of that. |
Posted By: cms
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2016 at 9:35am
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Holding the sleeves are no problem. What everyone forgets is how to hold head on. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2017 at 8:44pm
| A person who's never built a big engine can speculate things to death as Butch does. When you hard block a engine the piston manufacturer will tell you to open the piston to wall clearance up .Most of the time it opens up double of what a machinist is use to going by the dimensions provided on the manufacturer box piston are supplied in . |