Dumb Engine Size Questions
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=131753
Printed Date: 29 Aug 2025 at 6:41am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Dumb Engine Size Questions
Posted By: CrestonM
Subject: Dumb Engine Size Questions
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 11:51pm
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I hear these terms used all the time. I know what 301's, 426's, 516's, etc. are, but when people say things like 670T, 670I, 649T, Mark II 2900, 3500, and 25000, etc. Some of those are the same engines, right? Just different terms?
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Replies:
Posted By: DanD
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 12:09am
| They changed to metric designation so the 301 (2800) became a 649...6 cylinder 4.9 liter. T indicated turbocharged, I intercooled. So for example you had a 433T 433I 649 649T 649I 670T 670I etc. |
Posted By: SteveC(NS)
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 5:42am
Do you mean the U.S. of A. changed something to metric designation? Wow! wonders never cease.
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DanD wrote:Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:26am
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But we wisely kept the english system for most everything else... Heritage, not hate... Back in college, I had to convert from inch to metric, and back, so many times, I was sick of it. Hadda prof ask me to convert a pint to metric, so's I said, without missing a beat 473 ml, he asked me to do the math, or show how I arrived at that figure. So I calmly pulled out an empty bud tall boy, and pointed it out on the label... He never asked me again...
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Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:47am
Changed about the same time AC went belly up BTW,when you're the #1 economy in the World you get to have a lot of things your way. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:51am
But if you sit on your laurels the rest of the world will pass you by. |
Posted By: Gary Burnett
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:54am
True and we've done it for awhile but that's about to change,fortunately for us most of the rest of the World has done worse than we have. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 6:55am
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part of the 'world economy'... 'free trade' etc. is the 'need ' to go metric.. 2 ways, soft and hard... soft, only the numbers on paper are Metric hard, the 'stuff' really IS Metric Ford up here found a HUGE problem when going 'hard' as wheel nuts lookd a lot alike and bins full of 1/2-fine got impacted onto Metric studs ! NOT one of their finer days...... All 'world class' vehicles made since early 80s are METRIC... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 7:26am
| So the US built the largest economy ever using fractions. When the rest of the world figured a way called metric, so they could try to understand how to keep up, but still couldn't, that we need to dumb down to make things more even. How has that been working out for our economy? Looks to me like the dumbing down has been working well. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 7:38am
| You tell me where the improvement is when changing to metric? Does the nut clamp better,hold better,last longer,cost effective,(heaven forbid)easier to remember, and have you seen the size of a mechanics tool box these days? Maybe we sent a man to the moon using the metric system, but how the heck did a man walking on the moon help me and my family or your family in a personal way? Sure it's interesting to learn about the moon and planets and we sure need them in place for everything to work right, but at such an ungodly cost to the taxpayer, or that benefits us as individuals? I'm not aiming these thoughts at any of you, so please don't be insulted. I have no idea how I got from metric wrenches to walking on the moon and everything in between. Guess I'm getting older and dumber. Waiting on the wiser part and it hasn't shown up yet. |
Posted By: JW in MO
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 7:58am
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I'm just a dumb old farm kid who works in an industry where everything has to be very precise. What confounds me is I deal with cabinets that sometimes can't vary more than 1.5 degrees either way but everything is in celsius, or centigrade as I learned in school. Fahrenheit is a much finer and more accurate measuring system but totally ignored in the medical field. I just play the game by the rules provided. (something I wish I'd learned to do in college) ------------- Maximum use of available resources! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 8:27am
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There is ZERO technical reason to ever go 'Metric'.... and even when 'they' do, like us Canucks north of the 49th, 'they' STILL rely on IMPERIAL measurements for IMPORTANT issues ! We've been metric since the first Trudeau( mid 70s???).. YET EVERYTIME 'they' want us to help 'them' find a bad guy, he's reported as being... 6 FOOT two, 220 POUNDS....... IF we're supposed to be Metric, what's with the feet, inches and pounds ??? Idiots..... Now 'supposedly' we're selling to the 'world' market and they are mostly metric BUT , build a better ,cheaper mousetrap and they WILL buy it, be it in inches or sillymeters..... The real problem is WE can't build ANYTHING 'they' want...better,cheaper than they already can... One interesting tidbit is that BILLIONS of itty,bitty integrated circuits are STILL manufactured on 1/10th INCH spacing for the pins,made in them 'metric' countries ! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dans 7080
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 9:31am
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Ever notice tire sizes? 285-75 r16 why is the tire in metric but the rim is always standard? ------------- When someone tells you Nothings Impossible, Tell them to slam a revolving door |
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 9:46am
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Even tho the country went metric years ago, the country roads are still 1 mile apart! Or is that 1.6 Km? And we still measure our harvest in bushels per acre. Wait a minute----wasn't this post about engine sizes?? LOL |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:19am
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Somewhere along that history Allis Chalmers changed to Deutz Allis and the Deutz company that bought the remains of Alllis was European and by that time I think European standards insisted on metric measurements and metric standard hardware for imported equipment. Unfortunately there are multiple metric standards around the world for hardware and they don't always agree on standard sizes and thread pitches. Imperial as used in the UK is different than inches used in the USA. For bolts and nuts generally the same diameters but different thread pitches. 8mm looks the same diameter as 5/16" to the eye and the micrometer (within 0.0025") but the threads won't mate. 11mm and 7/16 are very close and 19mm and 3/4" are only .0.002" apart. 5/8" and 16mm are .005" apart. Most other common metric dimensions aren't so close. As I recall, the engine in my '73 Pinto wagon was metric but everything else was fractional hardware. Gerald J. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:22am
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I KNOW here in Ontario when we 'went to the dark size'...... a LOT of farmers got done in by the official govenment 'conversion' charts as to what the M-stuff was. fert rates, etc. were all WRONG.....Now the 'old guys' who kept doing what thay'd done for 30-40-50 years were fine...but the 'city slickerwannabe farmers', well, they didn't fare so well... as for engines... how are CARBS rated these days? CFM or ????? Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 10:26am
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They use carbs in anything other than small engines nowadays? |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 6:51am
HAHAHAHAHA! Oh man! I can relate to that one brother! On so many levels! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 6:55am
I understand your rant. But just for fun, can you please tell me how Fahrenheit is "more accurate"? |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 6:57am
Because 285-75 R406.4 would look funny?
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Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 7:00am
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Anyone know the first US President to consider switching to the metric system, but after consideration considered it to be too expensive? .... .... Thomas Jefferson! True. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 9:25am
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In Centigrade there are 100 degrees between ice and steam from distilled water at sea level. In Fahrenheit there are 180 degrees for that range. So the tehmperature change for one degree is smaller in Fahrenheit. Both schemes were devised based on physical constants. Fahrenheit picked 0 as the coldest temperature he could get ice with salt, and 100 as normal human body temperature. He wasn't perfect as today we figure 98.6 F as normal body temperature. Celsius picked the freezing temperature of pure water as zero and the boiling point at sea level pressure as 100. And its now known that freezing of water is 32F and boiling is 212F. The only troubles with these as calibration points is that they are affected by the purity of the water and boiling by the atmospheric pressure so even more by altitude. There are other standards for temperature. At least Reaumur, Kelvin, and Rankine. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 11:07am
Yep. All of which has precisely nothing to do with "accuracy". |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 12:55pm
| that was a good question i was wondering about the numbers also |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 2:46pm
So why is a 301 also a 2800? Is 301 the cubic inches and 2800 just a model name?
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Posted By: ctbowles 58
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 2:54pm
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Posted By: Skyhighballoon(MO)
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 3:03pm
Yes, 2800 was the model name for the 301 naturally aspirated diesel. 2900 for turbo. 3400 for 426 naturally aspirated, 3500 for 426 turbo and so on. You also had the 265 cu 6 cylinder gas model named G2500 and the 301 gas was G2800. Mike ------------- 1981 Gleaner F2 Corn Plus w 13' flex 1968 Gleaner EIII w 10' & 330 1969 180 gas 1965 D17 S-IV gas 1963 D17 S-III gas 1956 WD45 gas NF PS 1956 All-Crop 66 Big Bin 303 wire baler, 716H, 712H mowers |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 3:08pm
| Thanks, Mike! Now maybe I'll actually understand what guys are talking about when they say those --00 numbers, instead of just nodding and saying "Mmm hmm...yeah". LOL |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 3:12pm
| The 2000 series......2200 was a 4 cylinder gasser......2400 was the diesel version?........2500 was a 6 cylinder gasser.....2800 was gas or diesel.......2900 was turbo diesel........2950 was turbo intercooled diesel. |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 5:27pm
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Some were in 70's there was a big push to make the U S metric,probably Carters doings. Out here with all the progressives it even went so far as distance on Highway signs was in both systems. I cannot remember if any are that way anymore or not. I think this caused A C to convert,and am guessing this could of coincided with the introduction of L and M combines. I operated a 75 MH combine in 79 and believe they were already using the D2900 as the engine model.I have a parts book for the 78 model MH2 combine and it says D2900, so this is long before the Deutz name was connected to Allies . Now if I can keep this all strait as I don't deal in any of the older AC engines. I have used the metric enough to see the advantage of everything being 1/10 or 1/100 instead of the odd ball fractions we get in are current system. BUT THIS OLD DOG HATES CHANGES so don't pitch me to the wolfs for saying that. I also get put out at Detroit that cannot make up its mind which fasteners it is going to us. Maybe Snapon tools pays them off as everybody needs a complete set of both tool sets. All the way back in the 70's and still building 50/50 models. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 8:36pm
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Back right after the US stopped trying to change to metric, I was taking a class at the local Community Collage. The instructor was a retired machinist. He stated the reason that the US stopped changing to metric was that there was a couple of countries were using a different metric system. So the US said we are not to change until the world adopted one standard metric system. Dusty I've often wondered if we change to metric. How do we change things that already exist, such as all our country roads ? Dusty
------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 8:57pm
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In metric we just have country roads at 1.6 km intervals instead of 1 mile intervals, like they get along in Canada. To replace a rubber piece under the front fender of my 2015 Fiesta hatchback there were three fasteners, one #2 Phillips, one Torx, and one 9/32" hex or 7mm. It sure was hard backing out the Torx with the #2 Phillips and I couldn't get a good look at it without taking off the front wheel to know it wasn't Phillips until I got it out. Its been said, "I like standards because there are so many to choose from." The world hasn't settled on a universal metric standard in the past century and it doesn't look likely. Gerald J. |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 8:58pm
| Well,there's been many great and wonderful things designed and built in the USA over many years using the inch measurement.I couldn't have been that tough on the engineers.Moving a silly decimal point to soften life isn't the American way!!My brother is a draftsman (near retirement) and has little good to say about the metric system. I can see no advantage to metric sized anything. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2016 at 11:59pm
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In my day job, we set up a lot of foreign equipment in metric measurements. I hate trying to read a metric tape measure. All those little mm marks are hard to read and most metric tapes you buy will have metric on one side and standard on the other. In certain situations you have to read both sides of the tape and it's always the one with the wrong system. I've gotten to where I take all my measurements with a standard tape and use a handy smartphone app to convert when needed. While I'm on tape measures, I also hate the tapes with the fraction markings on them. It's just too much clutter. If you are going to use a tape or a ruler, learn how to read the darned thing without having to rely on those stupid cheater fraction markings.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 4:07am
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I didn't care one way or another which system I was using as long as I knew what I was working on. Foreign cars all use metric and as a rule hey use even-sized metric bolts. U.S. automakers simply picked the metric size closest to the old SAE size. They used a 13mm bolt in place of the old 1/2" bolt. You can generally use a 13mm socket on a 1/2 bolt, but you can't use a 1/2 socket on a 13mm bolt. As for engine sizes I can't imagine anything in cubic inches anymore unless I'm dreaming of the days when a muscle car would have a 409, 427 or other such engine. Even the old 350 is now a 5.7 in my mind. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 5:32am
Yeah, and she's real fine my 409, just works! try to rhyme something with 6.702 liters
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Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 6:27am
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One per peeve, I have is the idiotic 'need' for a 5.5mm headed bolt or nut !! Anyone else have 'fun' with oddball unecessary sizes ? BTW, you should NOT use Metric on Imperial and vice versa, sooner of later you WILL strip the head on that bolt and end up with a true circular headed fastener, that even NEW vicegrip just can't get a grip on !! While some sizes are really,really close like 19mm and 3/4" you should always use the correct sized tool. or the BFH to get that 5.5mm rounded head out of your life ! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 6:33am
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OK, nuther one... back on topic..engine sizes ALL small engines are now in CCs and NOT HP. 'They' decided to do that trick years ago, probably a mrketing gimmick or the fact you can calculate HP in 4,5,10 different ways but the volume of an engine is constant. I even talked to a B&S eng about it...man was HE cornfused..... Rule of thumb for 1 cyl OHV engines... take CC / 30 = HP +- 270CC /30 = 9HP Somewhere I read /29 is the 'number' but I'm 63...I can't /29 mentally to save your azz! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 6:48am
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It's not that hard on the engineers, still buttons on a calculator or computer. It is hard on the poor machinist who's been turning the same crank for 40 years and expecting a certain result. He has plenty enough intelligence to "divide by 25.4" but he's lost the feel for what he's doing. That, and the cost, the cost of changing all those cranks and the markings and lead screws and gauges and everything that goes with it. Huge cost, to what gain? There are some obscure standards in certain "metric" systems, but it's more in the definitions and standards than the units of measure itself. Would have nothing or maybe very very little to do with what it would take to manufacture something. The true system is called SI (Systeme International), and is the most widely used system of measurement, and is the system used by anyone manufacturing anything in another country you would ever encounter. Our company is mandating a change to metric....and it is PAINFUL! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 6:55am
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To ease the pain going over to the 'other side' ONE thing NEEDS to be done... Remove,get rid off EVERY imperial tool ! Big or small, they ALL have to go. Then and ONLY then do you and the company have a snowballs chance of converting. One smart company GAVE all their imperial tools,fasteners and machine, big,small, ALL ,to it's employees. Hand stuff..free, lathes and things a small fee. Over a long weekend 100% of the shop was 'made metric'. Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: JoeO(CMO)
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 7:01am
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.....And WHY DO WE GO TO THIS DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME??? Hmmm... Back to engines! ------------- |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 7:03am
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I agree that's how it should be done Jay. I can only hope. Rip the band aid off quick.... But.... They won't. It's going to suck, they're going to do it like 1 product family at a time (out of like 5). And then they'll bitch about our scrap rate. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 7:04am
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I am in the do it all the same camp. Sadly when I worked in industry we bought most of the normal components from vendors like motors and gear boxes even though we built custom equipment and if you buy a servo motor it is not made in the United States even if it is a Rockwell motor made in Mexico so the bottom line is you either use metric and all the nuts and bolts are metric or you use English and have a mix of what you designed versus what you bought. In the end it is much easier for the person taking it apart if he knows all the tools are metric. And yes it isn't easy for a machine shop to switch but if the manufacturers in the US had switched back 40 years ago when the talk started we would all be over it now the problem is the decided to stay the odd man out and now we have mixed stuff. Mixed fastener types and sizing sucks. We fired one engineer from a company I worked for because he couldn't get it through his head that you didn't want to use 4 different tools to remove one metal skin about 4 feet square from a machine. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 7:04am
I love daylight time! But I wish we would just stay on it all year instead of changing. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 8:26am
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The differences between 5/16" and 8mm, 7/16" and 11 mm, 3/4" and 19mm is smaller than the standard enlargement of the wrench opening for each of those sizes so for those fasteners the metric and fractional wrenches interchange without fastener damage. Other sizes never fit so good, though 5/8" and 16mm should match, but I've never used those with the other wrench. I've had double sets of wrenches for more than 50 years. This week Menard's sale has a couple $9 wrench sets, buy on get the other for free, one metric and one fractional. Fractional isn't the same as Imperial. Daylight Stupid Time, enough said. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:05am
I agree, but imagine how over it we would be by now if Thomas Jefferson carried it through instead of thinking it would be too expensive! Hahaha |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:11am
Yeah, but, a metric wrench has a standard enlargement as well...I've seen it where a 6 point socket or box will fit but a 12 won't. And good luck with those $9 wrenches, God knows what the "enlargement" is on those, and probably not stiff enough to stay on size anyway! They'll probably fit anything within random anyway and you'd never know. I just like Daylight time so that when I get home from job 1, I have some daylight to work with at job 2. Driving to work in the dark and coming home and it's dark get's pretty depressing after a while. With Daylight time, I'd drive to work in the dark, but have a chance for some sunlight once in a while, it's nice. Just glad I don't live out East, no wonder those people are so grumpy!
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 12:25pm
I recently purchased an Ariens snow blower and the engine is rated in torque, not HP. I might add that it is rated in foot-pounds, not newton-meters. Ariens' small engine manual claims this is being done because every equipment manufacturer was making their own claim as far as engine HP was concerned, even though their competitor used the same engine and claimed more HP. Small engine manufacturers decided to level the field. Don't ask me how this makes anything different since there is a straightforward formula for converting torque to HP. |
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2016 at 9:46pm
| And then you have the air compressor hp ratings. I don't understand how I can see a 8hp new air compressor at Home Depot and the motor or compressor won't be one third of the size of my old Ingersol Rand 3 hp compressor. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 10:12am
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Small gas engines are sold on displacement today instead of horsepower because manufacturers rated them at operating speeds nearly unachievable and not usable with mowers. And then exaggerated the numbers. Some air compressor makers rate their electric motors on peak horsepower, probably based on the power input while starting. Electric motors tend to draw at least 5 times running current while starting, sometimes depending on the winding and the line voltage 6 times that running current. The more reliable rating for an air compressor is the cubic feet of air per minute which can be done with a small air pump turning really fast compared to a much larger displacement compressor turning 800 RPM. Basically the small displacement compressor turning fast can move as much air, but it probably will be noisier, and wear much more rapidly than the slow speed compressor. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Roscoe62
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 11:45am
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Never knew that about the 4.9 liter stuff. Learn every day.
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Posted By: Dans 7080
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 11:51am
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That's how Detroit's were sized Roscoe. 6v71, 6 cyl "v" configuration 71 ci per cyl. 453 4cyl 53ci per cyl ect. ------------- When someone tells you Nothings Impossible, Tell them to slam a revolving door |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 1:15pm
| Those old 71 serries sure did hammer away forever. A motor you can't beat but that will make you deaf... |