Allis G sparking when battery unhooked
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=131022
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Topic: Allis G sparking when battery unhooked
Posted By: rtr
Subject: Allis G sparking when battery unhooked
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 2:45pm
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:help: I have a new 6 volt battery and new battery cables. I'm getting a good ground because when i go to hook up the ground cable I get a substantial spark from the battery post. I have ensured that no battery cable is touching anything. The reason for all of this discovery is because the tractor will not start. I am getting no voltage to the starter....pull the rod and acts like a dead battery. Where can my problem be? |
Replies:
Posted By: wbecker
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 3:08pm
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You get a spark when connecting the ground cable to the battery? With no light turned on? We need more concise explanation or the situation. ------------- Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152 |
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 3:12pm
| If you're getting a good spark, or any spark, for that matter when connecting the battery cables, you have a short somewhere. Other possibility is a light switch or something is turned on. With everything off, there should be no spark or current flow when connecting cables. |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 3:26pm
| I know there is a short somewhere but I don't know what from. There is only a toggle for on/off but it sparks both ways. When cables are hooked up I get nothing when I pull the starter Rod. It acts like there isn't a battery hooked you |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 3:26pm
| * Hooked up |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 5:08pm
Your cut out relay on the generator probably has stuck points. Disconnect it and then see if sparks go away. ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 5:16pm
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or... maybe the ammeter is shorting to ground. The 'fiber' washers MUST isloate BOTH terminals from the mtg bracket..... New ones are tubular plastic..... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 6:30pm
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You need a more descriptive current indicator than the spark at connection. I'd suggest a 6 volt 1 amp lamp like a car dome lamp. Wire that lamp between the battery post and the battery post connector. It won't be destroyed by a short and will indicate by lighting, brighter the greater the potential short circuit current. Then take the circuit apart one circuit at a time until the lamp goes dark. Then reconnect that circuit and disassemble it until you find the cause of the load or short. There isn't anything in electrical circuits that fail more often than not to reliably predict such problems. The diagnosis needs application of a logical procedure that I just described to be successful without simply replacing all electrical parts and wiring. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 9:27pm
I agree. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Ted in NE-OH wrote:Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 9:00am
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Since I had the problem of "no juice" from battery to starter, I decided the starter was grounded out and removed it for repair. I checked the continuity from the (-) starter battery cable and the frame of tractor. My meter beeped saying it was a complete ground. I made sure the battery cable wasn't touching the frame.
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 9:46am
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The beeper test is probably based on continuity for one or two milliamps. The starter requires a connection that can deliver at least a couple hundred amps, 100,000 times greater current so the continuity tester isn't a good indicator for the starter. That's partly why I suggested using a 1 amp lamp, it self protects itself from a short and doesn't show the current from a wet sprig of grass. Have you ever cleaned the battery posts and connectors? My lifetime experience is that they need cleaning twice a year on a 6 volt system because there isn't much tolerance for dirty connections at 6 volts. My dad assigned that task to me about 1956 on his first new car, and 1954 Ford I block 6. I used a sturdy pocket knife blade to remove the corroded metal of the post and the connector until they shined. Today I use a wire brush that seems to be good enough at least for 12 volt connections that need to be cleaned every couple years. Gerald J. |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 10:05am
It's got a new 6 volt battery, and a new (+) ground cable. The (-) cable to the starter has bright shiny copper strands (00 gauge) but the rubber is deteriated. I swapped it out with another cable and got the same results.
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Posted By: JD Dan
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 1:20pm
| Do allis g tractors have a switch right on the starter like the b? I've had numerous problems with that style switch not being built properly or going straight to ground because *somebody* allowed the stud to turn during cable installation.... |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 2:19pm
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I'd look first at the generator/cutout. Disconnect those wires first and see if it still sparks. If so, keep it disconnected and look for a short in the wiring. |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 7:30pm
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If you had a short there would be smoking wires or something hot. I still say cut out relay stuck ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 7:45pm
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If the cutout relay is stuck, then the generator will spin with the battery connected, and the fan belt off. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 9:16pm
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Since you have the starter out, connect the battery and then touch the 2 wires that came off of the starter and see if you get a spark there. The starter shouldn't be a problem unless the starter switch is shorted. Bob ------------- 4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S, |
Posted By: Ted in NE-OH
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2016 at 9:28pm
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It can't spin and turn the engine over, too much load. ------------- CA, WD, C, 3 Bs, 2 Gs, WC, I-400, 914 |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:41am
Thank you all for the help thus far.
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Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 8:05am
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Ok.....figured out the problems (kind of). Bench tested starter and it worked, so I decided to test the "New looking" 6 volt battery on the tractor even though I had charged it and was getting spark with it. It tested at 2.4 volts. DEAD. Reinstalled starter and I went and got a 12 volt truck battery and went to hook it up on the tractor keeping the positive ground system. Got a large spark this time so I decided to unhook the wire on the generator closest to outside (on the very top). When I unhooked that wire the sparking at the battery stopped. Sorry for not knowing which wire I unhooked, as it was dark outside and I couldn't make much of anything. Anyways....put some gas in her, turned on the fuel valve, sanded the points a little, and she fired to life!! Ran good with no smoke for a couple minutes then died. Carburetor was dripping gas, and I tried to restart with some ether to no avail. I got a couple of pops and then it wouldn't do anything after that. I presume that the plugs got wet since the points were still firing. Looks like she'll need a tune-up and carburetor rebuild at the least. What could be the problem with the electrical system? The Voltage Regulator? |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:21am
There was no voltage regulator on a G Allis. If you have one, the whole system has been changed so there is no way for anyone here to diagnose the problem. As mention previously, the cut out relay CAN weld itself shut, causing the generator to act like a motor any time the the battery is hooked up. Remove the fan belt and hook that wire back up that caused the spark. Does the generator spin then? ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:28am
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Ok....it is a cut out relay. They both visually look the same. My bad. I will have to see. probably going to have to remove the hood to do the repairs now.
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Posted By: JoeM(GA)
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:48am
http://s33.photobucket.com/user/Joecdeere/media/tech%20pic/voltcut_zpsjp7kjrfq.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
------------- Allis Express North Georgia 41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's, Ford 345C TLB |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 4:20pm
| Joe I clearly see the difference there but the farmalls use one that looks like a VR. Pretty sure mine looks original except someone added a VR. I can get pictures soon |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 10:25pm
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Just because the Battery is new, doesn't mean its good. Its new to you. Put a slow charge in it and do a draw test on it to make sure its good. Sounds to me like you have a couple problems. Either the Battery is shorted out, or its going dead due to a faulty VR or cutout. Gotta' take one item at a time and check it out starting with the Battery. You'll eventually find the problem... Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 6:07pm
| Can someone provide me with the correct part number for the Voltage Cutout. I also need the length of the original battery cable to the starter (- cable). I'm gonna go to my local starter generator repair shop and get those parts. He has 2/0 cable and he will make the battery cable there. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 6:50pm
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Get a price from your genny shop for a 12 volt generator and regular before you throw a lot of money at it. 12 volt batteries are more common anyway. I don't know how original you want to keep the tractor, but an alternator with a built-in regulator is doable. |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 7:37pm
| I'm going to try and keep this one original |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 9:22pm
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rtr, I commend you for want to keep ORIGINAL. There is no need to make all kinds of changes. They worked fine when new. Most "upgrades" are done as a quick way to bypass a problem that should be repaired My kind of guy. Bob
------------- 4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S, |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 7:01pm
| Does anyone know the length of cable I need? I am supposed to pick my other Farmall parts up this week from his shop and would like to get the battery cable made. Details are in my original post. |
Posted By: rtr
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2016 at 4:32pm
That and the part number for the CORRECT voltage cutout. Sorry....forgot to mention this the 2nd time I posted it
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