? for 180 pullers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130240
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Topic: ? for 180 pullers
Posted By: PaulB
Subject: ? for 180 pullers
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 6:05am
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This question is for all the 180/185 Diesel pullers on what you found that works for you and also more importantly what you not do again if you had things to do over.
Classes and rule limits. 4500 to 6500 pounds. 23.1X30, 20.8X34 or 18.4x38 tires. Engine must be of the same manufacturer and same number of cylinders and bolt in without adapters or non OEM made backing plates. CID limit of 414. 1 turbo, any size. A pump and no RPM limit. Intercoolers and water injection are allowed.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 6:25am
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Turbo size?? and how many turbos??
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Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 8:56am
A 301 can be made to 410 cubes as a turboed diesel and still be very reliable. A 180 - 185 should be able to run road gear with these class rules and good money spent on good parts. You will need an A pump capable of delivering 600 or more cc's if possible. The correct turbo selection will be very important.
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Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 9:43am
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Fun sounding class,,, a One Eighty fits right in that one
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Posted By: bradley6874
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 10:19am
Paul I HOPE this is a class at glad hill for your club for next year my 190 drops right in there and yes it sounds like a fun class
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You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul
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Posted By: mattb
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 1:30pm
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how about destroking a 426 would have a better flowing head
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Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2016 at 1:38pm
Already though of that. According to the rules posted it has to be the correct block for the driveline if I am interpreting them correctly.
"Without adapters or non - OEM backing plates" means no custom adapters can be used to put any other engine in a tractor other than what the driveline came with. Either way, for an Allis, the 301 block is the only choice unless someone gets a D21 down to 6500 lbs. or less.
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Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 1:52pm
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Correct: A 426 is not a direct bolt in for a 180/185. I've found out that one place I could pull at has a limit on the turbo; 2.4" inlet and 3" exhaust. What turbo would work here? What could be expected to get from a stock 2950/649I (301 intercooled) from either an M3 or 7020 with the screw turned out all the way and extra speed. Do these still need the rods hardened? At what HP does that needed to be done? Which injectors are better The Allis ones or the Bosh?
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
|
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2016 at 2:15pm
All good questions: I think in order to answer them with any amount of accuracy you will have to fill us in on what you intend to do. This might boil down to how good do you have to be to compete or what is your competition doing with their rigs.
In theory, with an A pump rule and no limit on the turbo, That equals a potential of 13 - 14 - 1500 HP. If someone can get 750 cc's or so out of an A pump, and a good intercooler, and turn a 3.4 inlet turbo at open RPM (yes, this could happen) at 410 inches you could have that much to deal with.
Going back to your 2.4 inlet turbo question, I doubt a Roosa master pump would turn that affectively on 301 cubes. Maybe on 410 with an intercooler and a good cylinder head it would.
So you see, it all depends on what you want to do. Going big costs money. What it take to compete depends on what your competition is doing.
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Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 6:35am
At the moment there is no serious competition that is running a turbo. I would be happy with near to 500HP maybe even 300, is that possible with a 2950 without going overboard? What is the HP limit with the Roosa Master pump on the 301 with an intercooler? I don't need to go with a big turbo for now. I see that a 301 has potential to get into serious HP. It's nice to know that the 301 can be built to 410. Does this require a longer stroke? Although
as for now I'm looking for ideas of what to not do and what needs to be done for reliability. Whatever I can start with I must be able to get under 4500 pounds. below 4000 would be even better. I like the idea of the 23.1X30 tires. That leaves the option open to go to taller tires, when I get into more HP. To begin with I'd like to know what needs to be done with the rear and transmission, to eliminate potential problems. I'd also like to know more about the parts to eliminate the PD and still have the two ratio choices. Are there gears made to change the 1-2 and 3-4 slots to get in between the 5-6
and 7-8 slots?
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 10:49am
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3 years a go pulled 5500-6500 with it 3k rpm at this time. had 3LM466 turbo 500cc a-pump 7th gear inter cooler 40lbs ice 18.4x38 top cut 301 cube
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Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2016 at 10:50am
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sorry for got to add the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ4nrvWoAVw
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Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2016 at 11:21am
Yes you could make 300 - 400 HP with a Roosa Master pump, however, if you are thinking forward and want something to build on in the future, I would skip the Roosa pump and go right to an A pump. With this set of rules somebody someday will build a killer. You want to have cards left to play. This will also insure that you can turn the 2.4 inlet turbo.
If you stay with stock cubic inches (which is sounds like is the plan) you should have the factory connecting rods heat treated. That's a must do. After that, a good head gasket with fire rings would be needed. From there add slightly larger intake and exhaust valves, good springs, keepers and locks, and have the head ported. Use the 15:1 pistons which should be machined with valve reliefs to accept a more aggressive camshaft with faster ratio rockers. 350" deep reliefs should be more than enough. No other machine work to the pistons will need to be done. Balance all internal moving parts. At 500 HP the factory main caps will be just fine - no need for a girdle.
Purchase a case of John Deere 80% ether. Keep a can nearby at all times.
You will need a good, twin or triple disk clutch and a steel flywheel.
Okay, that was the easy part: Now, I am not sure a 180 could make 4500 lbs. 5000 - yes. 4500 - doubt it. I'm not sure how that would be done unless you used a D17 transmission and final drives. If so, you would want enough HP to run direct drive or you will likely break the transmission. I think you would want the use of the 180 torque housing with a mechanical coupler to be able to remove the factory power director. The over / under gears in the 180 (or 190) torque housing would be heavier than a D17 I would assume. Next you have to figure out how to couple the D17 trans to the 180 clutch shaft and still have the high / low feature. Two different splines on the output end of the clutch shaft vs. the D17 input shaft. That would be the tricky part if you are truly committed to making 4500 lbs. Even if you could make the D17 driveline work, you would still really be scratching to make 4500 with the rest of the tractor being mostly 180. Aluminum everything. For the headaches and money involved in losing the last 500 lbs., I might just be satisfied running the 5500 and 6500. That should make for a large enough group of competitors to piss off.
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Posted By: rowcropmafia
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2016 at 8:41pm
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If you're serious about it I think 4500lb is doable in a 180. Mine weighs 5000 with a 3 bar cage and the rear end full of oil. with no aluminum on it other than the radiator. An aluminum hood and floor pan would be easy to build for a 180. A 2 bar cromoly cage would also save alot of weight. I'm not saying it would be cheap or easy just doable.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2016 at 10:01pm
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Getting there is one thing. Being able to balance it and drive it in a controlled manner is something else. There's only 6 gallons of oil in the rearend...42 pounds. Changing to aluminum hoods might save 50 lbs, so there's 92 pounds with no oil in the rearend. You've got 408 pounds to go and find a 100 lb driver.
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Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2016 at 6:24am
I see that it is doable. I know that back in the early 70s, 180s were running the 5000 pound class with no extra allowed weight for safety equipment. At the time most that I knew of had 200+ drivers. I have no problem there, I easily weigh in under 140. Also about all of them were running the factory narrow front and frame rails with no aluminum anything. I'm thinking of an aluminum front frame and lightweight wide front with no hydraulic powered anything. I do want to run the rear to full on oil and wonder if there are some bearings that should have a jet of lube sprayed at them.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
|
Posted By: TeamAllis
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2016 at 7:01pm
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Paul, could you give me a call for more information on the class, we run a 6,700 lb. open rpm 3" inlet on turbo. Spoke with a couple of people for directions in pulling in your area. Had back surgery last week so we are out this season, but would love to pull in this area, we run a 180, tractor runs good. give me a call t 252-945-7937. Thanks
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