Re-engineering 6-12v
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=128721
Printed Date: 29 May 2025 at 10:22pm
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Topic: Re-engineering 6-12v
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Subject: Re-engineering 6-12v
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 8:30pm
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As long as we're playing my brain is longer than yours, Ive got one for the group. Why can't a step up transformer be used to run a 6v genny to charge a 12v battery? I prefer the original look of a genny, but the easy of a 12v battery. Can it be done, if not... why not? AaronSEIA |
Replies:
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 8:35pm
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Transformers only work on alternating current (AC), so I was told in college a few years back. As far as preferring the original look of the genny - so do I! That's why I get my 6 volt generators rewired to 12 volts at my local auto electric place. Doesn't cost anything when they are doing a rebuild. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:01pm
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You can install an inverter and then change that AC voltage back to 13.8 DC, but that would be both inefficient and expensive. It's best to just install a 12 volt generator or alternator. |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:04pm
| I've heard of a lot of 6V tractors (Mainly N series Fords) with "stealth conversions", meaning, like DSeries4 said, the 6V generators are re-wired for 12V, but still look original. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:39pm
Yep, it's the same 6 volt generator, just re-wired on the inside for 12 volts. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
CrestonM wrote:Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:49pm
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How complicated of explanations and related solutions do you want and to what level? What will work, what's the easiest way and what's possible if you have the knowledge and or cash , are your categories to chose from.  I can delve into the deepest depths of all three to the level of another exploding troll flame war without blinking an eye.
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Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 5:46am
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I did some reading last night. Transformers will not work on DC voltage. They make something called a DC converter that would do the job, but they sound more expensive than having the 6v genny rewired. Easy solution is to buy 12v ones in automotive applications. It is otherwise impossible to get a 6v genny to charge a 12v battery, correct? AaronSEIA |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 5:55am
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Price a 30 AMP model of one of those, Aaron. You'll run with your tail between your legs. BTW, rewinding a generator doesn't include matching a 12 volt regulator to it. That can be fun too. |
Posted By: GregLawlerMinn
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 7:11am
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I have used 12V genniea from old Chevies. They are still available, reasonably priced, and need a real close look to determine it is an upgrade. I install the VR inside the tool box and have bolted the cutout relay on the genie to further disguise the upgrade, ------------- What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers. Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 7:32am
Gerald is an electrical engineer. He is going to see this and have a field day lol  ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 8:53am
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Long ago my dad and I rewound a 12 volt generator to produce 24 volts for running a Command set transmitter in our ham station. We simply took all the windings from the field poles and the armature and replaced them with windings having twice the turns with wire of half the cross section. After getting the commutator turned it worked, but wasn't perfectly quiet so I moved out of my bedroom to the guest bedroom for the next 7 years while I finished high school and college because my dad liked to use the radio in my bedroom early mornings and I preferred to sleep. We didn't use a voltage regulator but with constant speed and mostly constant load the voltage regulation for filaments and relays was good enough. When I went to college and took the DC machinery course I learned we worked too hard. The voltage from a standard generator is directly proportional to the shaft speed with the field current held constant. So all it takes to get 12 volts from a 6 volt generator is to turn the shaft twice as fast. It won't take twice as fast if the field voltage/current is raised too, but the field core will saturate probably long about 8 or 9 volts but up to that point the voltage will rise faster than the speed. Turning the generator shaft faster means with the stock pulleys its not going to charge at slow engine speeds, but if the generator pulley can be replaced with one smaller in diameter that will speed the generator. If the regulator puts 12 volts on the 6 volt fields they will run HOT. Heat is the enemy of winding insulation, insulation ages and deteriorates faster the higher the temperature and some will char if hot enough. As for using a transformer, actually the voltage and current in each armature winding is alternating current, the commutator acts as a mechanical rectifier, connecting to each winding when the desired DC polarity is present. If the commutator was replaced by a pair of slip rings the output will be AC. My dad and rewound a couple surplus 24 volt generators to produce 120 volts AC replacing the commutator with slip rings. My dad had done that to a 1932 Dodge starter/generator when I was a year or two old based on an article in a magazine. i still have it. Then with AC output from the generator a transformer could raise (or lower) the voltage and it would have to be rectified to charge a battery. AC runs lights fine, but not ignition systems and direct battery charging. 6 volt systems have worked for a long time. The current SAE standards demand 12 volts negative ground. The modern limits of 6 volt systems are that 6 volt batteries are not common and the selection is very limited with the odds being that the lone battery on the store shelf has sat there for many months without being maintained and its not going to give good battery life when placed into service. Then its my experience (starting with a 6 volt car my dad bought new in 1954) that the 6 volt battery post connections need cleaning twice a year. That's because with 6 volts there isn't much tolerance for a poor connection to the starter. There's more tolerance at 12 volts. I claim 8 volts is just an attempt to give the connections more tolerance for cleaning. Many a classic 6 volt system with a cutout and a 3 brush generator requires the operator observe the battery (without anything but an ammeter that doesn't show the battery is charged with the varying voltage from the 3 brush generator) charge level and back off the charging current to keep from removing water from the electrolyte from over charging and so is harder on batteries. A voltage regulator is a step modern. And alternator (and one could be made for 6 volts positive ground, but you aren't going to find it at any parts store) with a solid state regulator is better for a battery with better control of the charging voltage and is a leap forward in battery care. Going to 12 volts allows using stock alternator or generator and allows for safe jumping with any handy vehicle. I like the original look but understand how much nicer 12 volt with an alternator is. I converted my 4020 years ago from 12 volts positive ground to 12 volts negative ground with an alternator and tripled battery life because the alternator really charged the battery. Its a work tractor with a MF loader so its appearance is a secondary consideration. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 10:57am
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Just have it changed over to 12V. I do it quite frequently lately for our customer's. There's quite a few pluses to it. 1. There's no need to fab or purchase a mounting bracket. Fits right back in the OEM stuff it came out of cause' its the same chassis. 2. You move to a VR if the Tractor wasn't equipped before with a VR. Just remove the 3 pos. switch if so equipped. VR is a nice upgrade. 3. If you don't want to "piggy-back" the VR to the Gennie, you can hide the VR if you wish. On the B,C,CA Tractors, we offer a VR kit that mounts in the tool box outta' sight. I usually build a special system for the customer just for that when they're changing everything over. Steve@B&B 4. You can still use an Ammeter. Just bump it up to a 60/60 sweep unit for the 12V conversion if not already equipped. ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 4:17pm
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Told ya lol ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 4:36pm
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OK, there is another 'cheat' that could be used...there are several makes/models of 'DC boosters. Essentially they boost(convert) 6 VDC into 12 VDC.They are cheap though the more amps you want the pricier they get(though not outrageous). I used one to take 12 and boost to 24 to tun a linear acutator on the shoot on my riding snowblower.works fine. Some of today's 'modern technology' is good... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 4:37pm
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Then there's the best of both worlds....pricey but elegant http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Early-GM-Powergen-One-Wire-Alternator-75-Amp,5867.html?sku=91067170-POL&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CNiYqJzoj88CFQVZhgodJpQByw" rel="nofollow - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Early-GM-Powergen-One-Wire-Alternator-75-Amp,5867.html?sku=91067170-POL&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=CNiYqJzoj88CFQVZhgodJpQByw ------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 4:51pm
| My WD-45 "tractor-ride" tractor has the original 6-V genny charging a small 12 volt battery. Uses the original A-C light switch and cut-out relay. Just adjusted the 3rd brush a bit to get my 2-3 amp charge when throttled up. Three Summers and 400 miles of tractor riding and everything still works just fine. |
Posted By: Skyhighballoon(MO)
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 5:12pm
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My cheap WD45 conversion: One used 12v generator - Free (given pile of used units, made a good one out of couple) One bushing - a few bucks One VR - 40? Some wire, loom and connectors - already had - a few bucks Bolts - less than a buck? Mike     ------------- 1981 Gleaner F2 Corn Plus w 13' flex 1968 Gleaner EIII w 10' & 330 1969 180 gas 1965 D17 S-IV gas 1963 D17 S-III gas 1956 WD45 gas NF PS 1956 All-Crop 66 Big Bin 303 wire baler, 716H, 712H mowers |