Can B transmission ratios be changed?
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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Topic: Can B transmission ratios be changed?
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Subject: Can B transmission ratios be changed?
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 12:41am
| This may be a dummy question but do other model tractor gears interchange with a B transmission? Say I wanted to change my third gear to a lower ratio giving me more ground speed, would CA or WC gears interchange? Or how about a splitter/ overdrive like a Sherman in Fords? I suppose I could do mods engine wise to increase usable unloaded RPM and it would not be obvious, I plan on increased compression, static balancing, hardened seats and Torrington cam thrust bumper anyhow so I could get away with 2000 RPM maybe? I am also looking at taller tires to gain some ground speed. Just been mulling over possibilities is all. |
Replies:
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 5:20am
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The way I see it there is no practical way to change gear ratios in B/IB/C transmissions. Ring and pinion. Same in both B/IB and C. I know you can replace a B trans axle with one out of a CA. A friend actually did this swap in a B. What you end up with is what you would have for gear ratios is the same as a CA. The addition of a Sherman High Low gear box ahead of the transmission in a CA works. But will the same Sherman work in a B or C? If you want to go faster get rid of the 24" rims and go with 28s. make a high crop out of it. Wind it up to 2500 rpms too. I think Shermans for Allis applications come two ways. Direct drive and high or direct drive and low. Have not had any experience driving using a Sherman in a Allis. Came close to owning a CA that had one in it once a while back. I think the guy who got it still has it. I may see him Saturday at the Lone Star Tyler Texas Show |
Posted By: Orange Tractors
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 8:03am
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Two questions. 1. How fast do you want to go? and 2. Why do you want to go faster? I put lot of road miles on a 9N Ford that had a Sherman overdrive and 11-28 tires when I was a kid. That combo would run somewhere north of 20 miles per hour, if memory serves. It wasn't really a good idea with a brake pedal on each side of the tractor, I did a lot of stopping with the right brake and my left foot on the clutch instead of the brake. That's not even mentioning the drifty steering of the old tractor that was never meant for those speeds.
Robert
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 8:37am
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The CA has a constant mesh tranny, gears are totally different. I doubt there is any easy way to change gear ratios, just swap out the tranny for a CA tranny. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 10:11am
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My mowing C Allis that the engine was built using in spec used parts except for bearings and car rings filed to fit has mowed going on six years at over 2000 rpm's. I did remove .150 off the head in put in small block Chevy valves. No hardened seats just seats ground into the head as they came from the factory. Care was take but not machine balanced. I did this to show that a person does not need a new engine kit to build a long lasting engine if care is taken that every part is within spec. I like to see people learn the craft beyond being parts changers. That is not to knock parts changers if a person is not interested in learning the craft. http://public.fotki.com/DickL/allis_chalmers_engi/" rel="nofollow - http://public.fotki.com/DickL/allis_chalmers_engi/ |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 11:03am
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One thought on change gear ratios you could pursue is is if you have a local technical college that has a machinist curriculum. Years ago when I went to college at NDSCS in Wahpeton ND I had a few machining classes and one of the things they had us doing was making custom parts for local farmers and people who needed some more customized machining done on the cheap than any typical service or machine shop would do. One of the more common items I recall the higher level machining class students doing was making custom gears for old equipment either as stock replacements for broken or worn out gears or custom ratio sets for the JD slow race cheaters. (one tooth less on the first gear driver and 1 - 2 more on the larger driven.)  Typically all they charged for was the materials with a bit of a donation to the department of course, being the actual machining and related work was considered class work. I don't think they ever turned down any jobs being most any gear or gear sets were considered for weekly individual or group class projects depending on their application, size and complexity.  Just something to think about.
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Posted By: irlbeck A-C'S
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 12:44pm
 This was in a C. ------------- B,C,CA,(2)WC's,(4)WD's,(2) WD45'S, 45Diesel, (2)D12'S Series 2, D12 Hiclear,(2)D12 Series 3, HD3, D17NF (3)D17 Series 4 Diesels, M-100 Grader,8550,A few Lawn tractors lots of other AC stuff |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 4:34pm
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A CA trans and taller rear tires are going to be the easiest way to get more ground speed besides more engine speed. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:12am
| I do not want to kill the original look of the tractor, optional accessories like a Sherman would be cool. Rated RPM is 1400 so with my calculations that would give me about 8 MPH. The tractor cruise definition as acceptable speed is 10 MPH cruse speed so I am quite short of that. I did a dual trans on my Power King tractor and made the second trans an overdrive as it came with an optional rear diff that made the thing go about 4 MPH at full throttle. Yes it gets unstable at 35 MPH but I never go that fast with it. We have a few Fords and JDs that will do 20 easy ( one with an over under Sherman) and if the front end is tight with good tires and alignment they drive fine. I am thinking of using the tallest AG tire I can which is the Carlisle HA 45 11/24 and increasing engine RPM will get me to 10 MPH without beating the engine to death. Everything is going to be new and modernized in the engine and drivetrain completely rebuilt with Timkin -2 grade bearings so I should be OK there. The engine will be static balanced and hardened seats installed along with a Torrington roller cam thrust bumper. I am also going with 5/16 Cromolly push rods. The lifter bores I am thinking of installing guides in also to tighten things up and increase valve train stability. The engine has immense wear and the crank was shot so I am starting from scratch with everything anyhow. I am planning on using the tractor mainly for cruises and show unless I can find a 1 bottom 16" trip plow, which are impossible to find. I have a two bottom 14" trip JD but the B will never pull that, the B JD was a much heavier and more HP. The oil pump was also hosed so that will need to be replaced as one of the vane springs broke and ate the end plate up, once I get a more acceptable core then I with rebuild and blue print that along with a slightly higher rate relief spring to increase pressure from 19 PSI to 30. I thought maybe if the carrier, ring and pinnion or gears could be swapped I could take some strain off of the engine but I do not want to destroy the original external appearance of the tractor. The front axle I am having the spindles welded and turned, beam milled and bored true then sintered bronze bushings made to correct the nasty wear on the front end. The pivots I already installed new square head grade 5 bolts and I have bushed every pivot on the tractor including the clutch pedal and governer. So slop will not be an issue just getting run over by a Farmall might be an issue LOL. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:17am
| If 1400 RPM yields 8 MPH now, 1750 RPM gets you 10 MPH....2200 RPM gets you 12.5 MPH. |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:28am
| Of course that is full governed throttle, I would not want to run for hours at full throttle either. I am not sure how fast I would want to spin the engine for long durations? Bursts of 2500 would not grenaded it I am sure but I guess I will have to look more into what internally I can do to the engine to make it more RPM friendly. I just did my nephews Model A with a Scatt crank and that of course added counter weights to the crank like a modern engine, something not possible with the B engine so I am limited as to what I can do I guess. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 10:29am
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It might be easier to get the cruses to allow 8 mph tractors. I'd think 1750 would not be hard on the engine built for 1500 since by today's standards those are slow. My latest small car engine is redlined at 6500 with only three cylinders where its rated at 123 hp, 42 cubic inches. it does appear to be well balanced where the B 4 cylinder isn't. MY JD 4020 has a foot throttle that overrides the governor to run the engine speed up enough for 23 mph on the road. I'd think it wouldn't be hard to do that to the B or just change the governor spring for on a little stiffer or adjust the throttle lever to governor spring to pull a bit harder on the governor spring. Rear tires would have to be 25% larger in rolling radius to get 10 mph instead of 8 mph. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 12:36pm
Still aint gonna keep you ahead of the Farmall. I tip my hat to IH. They knew the meaning of road gear. |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: cdon_FL
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 2:44pm
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Be careful what you ask for. 4th gear in my CA at much above idle speed is faster than I want to go. Sloppy steering, trike front, weight up high, etc. ------------- Chris in NE Florida |
Posted By: Tcmtech
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 3:05pm
Yep. Unfortunately it took them a couple of decades to figure out how to add some more ratios between high field gear and go like hell road gear. That 3+:1 jump from high field to road gear was a bit much of a span to work with on most tractors.
 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 3:36pm
| Used to have a neighbor with a Farmall "M" and a WD-45. They farmed a farm 5+ miles away from their place and there was a couple of pretty good hills in the 5 mile trip. Even tho the "M' would out run the WD45 empty, when it came to pulling a load of hay or corn back home.....the end result was they arrived at the same time. One had shifted down several times from road gear and the other just stayed in road gear. |
Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 9:52pm
| If high gear is direct drive, there would be no gears to swap anyhow. Unless you change the ring and pinion or the final drives. But either would change every gear's speed. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2016 at 10:17pm
| Road gear on a B-IB-C-CA-D10-12-14-15 isn't direct drive. They input thru the top shaft and output thru the bottom shaft. If you could find someone to make you two spur gears of a different tooth count, you could actually speed up road gear. The tranny design is completely bass-ackwards from WC-WD-WD45 and up. |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 1:38pm
Bet they are rare too $ CA- CHING! |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 1:42pm
| Yeah it is a odd set up, nothing like the other transmissions I have done. It is like the countershaft is the main sort of. |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 2:25pm
| Sounds like the easiest route is either a CA transmission or go for the high crop bigger rear tires. |
Posted By: wbecker
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 2:33pm
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The CA in 4th would be the same as the B in third, direct drive, 1 - 1 ratio.
------------- Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 6:05pm
| The B and C transmissions in 3rd gear are in over-drive and not 1 to 1. Top shaft input gear has 27 teeth driving a 22 tooth gear on the bottom. |
Posted By: wbecker
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 6:28pm
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So is the CA an overdrive 4th gear also? If so, same ratio?
------------- Allis B, IB, Low B, G, D10, JD M, 8KCAB, C152 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 6:39pm
| CA-D10-12-14-15 all drive from the top shaft with 49 teeth to a 24 tooth on the bottom shaft in road gear. |
Posted By: OhKen
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2016 at 7:44pm
| Guys you can all laugh at this , but how about a set of G axles ? If speed is what you are after , with this you could probably do it in 1st gear .Tractor would be pretty much useless for anything but roading. To compound you would need a taller tire to get the tractor to set level again , or some kind of dropped front axle . Now how about that for a little more road gear ! |
Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 8:55am
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"Top shaft input gear has 27 teeth driving a 22 tooth gear on the bottom." That information, coupled with the exact center distance between shafts could help with new gears for a different ratio. Next thing to check would be if there is room for a larger upper gear. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:08am
im not familiar with the G. are you saying G axles will bolt up or just suggesting some kind of straight axle conversion? you would have to flip the differential over but it would certainly be high speed
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: OhKen
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:32am
| I'm not sure they would bolt up , but if they would you would eliminate the bull gear reduction . |
Posted By: OhKen
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:40am
| You would eliminate the bull gear and with the axle now turning in the direction of the removed pinion -----you would now have 3 very high speed reverse gears and 1 high speed reverse !!! So I will say this would be a pretty stupid thing to do !Good for a chuckle anyway ! |
Posted By: orangereborn
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 11:53am
We moved between farms in 1949 and we had a 1947 C (which my Dad bought new and I just now acquired it) and the neighbor a red "H." Similar loads and soon the "H" was over the horizon. But beyond the horizon were hills and the "C" always arrived first. Never left hi gear. On the humor side, grew up around "bass-ackward", "over the pond" and "cack-le-ber-ry," etc..Starting to hear those publicly referenced again. One, I never knew the logic, but knew what he meant, "couldn"t pull a fart out of a whirl-wind."Truly appreciate you rapid fire knowledge...Dale
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Posted By: TramwayGuy
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 1:17pm
| I'm curious whether anyone has ever tried to put a CA transmission in a 'G' and ended up with a 5-speed 'G'. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 1:28pm
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The G and B used basically the same transmission. The B does have the final drive gear reduction... You can flip the bevel gear in the differential to the other side to make the output run backward... for a fork truck, or 3 Rev 1Fwd speed... ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2016 at 9:43pm
| I think I'll go with increased engine RPM, the cost of custom cut and hardened gears would be about the same money or more. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2016 at 7:58am
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So, if you can get 1800 rpm out of it, you should be able to run close to 10mph. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2016 at 8:14am
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The way that the G travelled forward with the same transmission as a B without a reverse direction from the final drives is that the engine drove into the rear of the transmission on what would be the PTO drive of a B. The ring gear CAN NOT be reversed in a B the way it can in a WD because of the cut in the ring gear teeth. The pinion drives the ring gear below the centerline. If someone wanted to put a CA transmission into a G tractor, they'd still only have a 4 speed. The LOW Creeper was outside of the transmission case in the frame. It just might be possible if someone wanted to do some remachining, but not a bolt in swap as with a CA into a B or C.
------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2016 at 8:41pm
| Yup keep it simple and not noticeable, increase the RPM and tire diameter. I am thinking 2500 RPM ceiling with a 11/24 tire which gives me a couple inches over the ( stock) tire on there now. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2016 at 6:43am
| You'll wear the engine out a lot faster at those higher Rpms. |
Posted By: Jonny B 1938
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2016 at 10:08pm
| Well I am doing internal modifications to compensate such as a roller Torrington cam bumper, balanced rotating assembly, stiffer oil pressure spring with a blueprinted oil pump and hardened valve seats. Also looking into a counter weighted crank. I have done other engines such as early Ford this way but off the shelf parts are unavailable for an Allis so some custom parts will need to be made. I did a Ford 8N engine using the same methods and it regularly gets used for mowing over 5 acres twice a week for the last 7 years, no issues yet running at 2500 RPM all day. |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 6:06pm
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I hate to revive a post from the dead, but I hate to make a new thread for the same topic more. Background, I would really like to take my Dad's A-C B on the Mackinac Bridge Tractor Crossing at some point. Sure, I could use a different tractor, but frankly, I don't want to. This was my Dad's tractor, he grew up on a farm in Michigan and my Grandpa (his dad) started off farming with an A-C- B (though not this one). If i do the bridge crossing, I want it to be with this tractor....so any efforts to try to talk me into another will be in vain. Anyhoo, they test the tractors and they have to be able to do 10 mph, as pointed out above, a B will not do 10 mph stock. There has been some talk about using a CA transmission. I looked into this a bit. With the help of the ratios and method found here: http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/ratios/ratios.htm?i=1" rel="nofollow - http://rodnh.byethost12.com/acb/ratios/ratios.htm?i=1 I worked out the speed for a B in 3rd gear at 1400 rpm- which is actually 8.28 mph using this method. The oft-cited Nebraska test number of 7 3/4 mph was an advertised speed on the BE engine at, we would guess because it does not say, 1400 rpm. https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1925&context=tractormuseumlit" rel="nofollow - https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1925&context=tractormuseumlit When tested in 1950 with the CE engine, a closer analog to my '51 with the CE, it lists an advertised speed of 7 1/2 mph, but that does not make sense given at the very least you get 100 extra rpm because the CE is rated at 1500 rpm. https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1144&context=tractormuseumlit" rel="nofollow - https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1144&context=tractormuseumlit It is likely that the advertised speed is not the actual top speed at the highest rpm, but again, the Nebraska tractor test did not actually test that. So, I am going to assume that the B differential ratio and final drive ratios were the same in 1951 as they were in the 1942 tractor noted in the link above. Please correct me is I am wrong about that. Using the ratios in the 1st link, we get an actual theoretical top speed of 8.28 mph at 1,400 rpm for a B and 8.875 at 1,500 rpm (assuming 11.2x24 tires). Now, if I substitute the CA 4th gear for the B 3rd gear (I know the whole transmission needs to be changed, but I don't care about anything other than the top gear), assuming it is 49/24, 2.23, as stated in a post above....and leave the differential and finals at B ratios....it appears that 10 mph will be no problem whatsoever. In fact, it would appear that at 1400 rpm, there is a theoretical 15 mph....assuming the torque. I think the CA has lower differential or final ratios or both than the B that accounts for the lower top speed, but I'm sure someone here knows for sure. I will check these numbers again, but it would appear I am looking for a CA transmission or an overdrive for a B. Not inexpensive, but I would love the opportunity to make this work.
------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 6:22pm
| If the speed is 8.3 MPH @ 1400 RPM's it would be 11.8 MPH @ 2,000 RPM. A simple D-15 governor spring fix. Nebraska Test only gives rated RPM speeds, not full throttle. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 7:03pm
|
--"RATED" speed of 1400 is where you get max HP.... that MAY be the fastest the motor runs, or may not (I dont know about the B-C) ... but on NEWER engines, you might have a MAX RPM of 2000 and a RATED RPM of 1700.... so the GROUND SPEED may not be at RATED RPM. --I have read that gear ratios in the B and C final drives were not the same tooth number... i can not comfirm that, but it would explain the difference in MPH figures. --I agree with DOC... simple way to get more MPH is to put BIG TIRES, and UP the RPM by modify the GOV. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: KMAG
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2022 at 7:43pm
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Good reading on topic: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/4-speed-transmission-for-b_topic44886.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/4-speed-transmission-for-b_topic44886.html https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/ca-transmission-in-a-b_topic27282.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/ca-transmission-in-a-b_topic27282.html https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/ca-trans-swap-into-a-model-b-c_topic181685.html?SID=9210-13626e9e49z11za11z3e6148726852#1542850" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/ca-trans-swap-into-a-model-b-c_topic181685.html?SID=9210-13626e9e49z11za11z3e6148726852#1542850 https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/opinion-on-ca-b-hybrid-tractors_topic178383.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/opinion-on-ca-b-hybrid-tractors_topic178383.html |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 5:59pm
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You will find it VERY difficult, more likely impossible, to substitute a CA 4th gear, for the B 3rd gear. CA transmissions were constant mesh helical gears. The B is a spur gear, where the gear actually slides in and out of contact. You CAN remove the B transmission, and bolt in a CA transmission. Like said above, rated RPM is NOT the maximum. If it won't go 10 MPH the way it sits, put bigger back tires on it for the ride. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 9:55pm
| 12.4 x 24 firestone sat II with new 10" wheels , sure sped up my c and they look good on it now i need more power |