190xt won't lift disc mower
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=124051
Printed Date: 23 Aug 2025 at 5:36pm
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Topic: 190xt won't lift disc mower
Posted By: jdodds79
Subject: 190xt won't lift disc mower
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 5:27pm
| My 190 xt will only lift my 10ft disc mower about 4in, on the 3 pt and the same on the cutter bar. Ive tried turning the relief valve up a little and no help. Have good pressure, just wont lift. Help!!! |
Replies:
Posted By: Joe(TX)
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 8:24pm
|
Check he screen in the sump. It may be clogged. Other problems could be a malfunctioning flow divider or the pump needs rebuilding. ------------- 1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A |
Posted By: allis/cattle
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 9:36pm
|
where is this flow divider??? |
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 9:43pm
| How much pressure are you developing at a remote valve coupler? |
Posted By: Skyhighballoon(MO)
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 9:49pm
|
I assume you already checked to make sure you had plenty of hydraulic fluid in the torque tube. Mike
------------- 1981 Gleaner F2 Corn Plus w 13' flex 1968 Gleaner EIII w 10' & 330 1969 180 gas 1965 D17 S-IV gas 1963 D17 S-III gas 1956 WD45 gas NF PS 1956 All-Crop 66 Big Bin 303 wire baler, 716H, 712H mowers |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2016 at 10:29pm
| I have plenty of hydraulic fluid. I havent put a gauge on it yet, but if you crank a line by the pump it has pretty good pressure. Where is the screen in the sump? |
Posted By: screwloose
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 1:23am
| Under the torque tube. Has a drain plug in the center of it. It's the humdinger that the 2 bigger metal tubes bolt to on both sides of the bottom of the torque tube. You can buy a 5,000 lb. Hydraulic gauge for around $35. And check the pressure at the remotes. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 5:45am
|
Pretty good pressure is very little information. Dad's old XT gasser had a weak pump to the point it wouldn't lift a round bale of hay. Pump needed to be replaced it was so worn out.
------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 6:04am
| "Pretty good pressure" and "I tried turning up the relief valve a little" ?? Those are really funny statements for a guy who doesn't have a pressure gauge!!! Keep goofing around like that and you may have a hydraulic pump body split wide open. Just because you think the tractor should be able to lift this mower easily, doesn't mean you aren't exceeding the weight capabilities of the 3 pt hitch. Locating the top link in the top hole on the tractor is one way of increasing the hitches lifting power. The bottom hole reduces the lifting power. GET A 3,000 PSI GAUGE AND PLUG INTO A REMOTE OUTLET. |
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 7:32am
| There are two relief valves in the lift section. One for the main lift and the other is for the traction booster. The main relief is the hard one to get at. It's fairly easy to adjust the pressure if you have an accurate gauge. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 8:01am
| 100 psi is a lot of pressure when you loosen a line, but 100 psi won't lift the lift arms. Like others have said, you don't know the pressure until you put a gauge on it. MACK |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 8:10am
| Where is the main relief valve located? |
Posted By: thendrix
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 8:38am
|
Have you used the tractor to lift/raise the mower/cutter bar before? If you have before then I would say you have developed an issue. If not, a 10ft disc mower is a heavy SOB. You might be asking a bit much of your tractor. ------------- "Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: Trinity45
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 8:45am
| I lift a 9' New Holland with our 185 fairly easy, our 175 will lift it but the front comes off the ground a bit making it very hard to steer. So I think he should be able to lift it, if the pump is working correctly. |
Posted By: Play Farmer
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 10:32am
Yup!
 |
MACK wrote:Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:04am
| Do i need to drain the hydraulic fluid to check the sump screen? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:20am
| You don't take directions very good. The suction screen isn't your problem. Yes, you have to drain all the hyd oil to clean the screen, which isn't your problem. You might have a pressure problem (and you might not) and that is only verified with a 3,000 psi gauge plugged into a remote outlet and pulling/pushing on a lever to activate the hydraulics. You didn't answer the question as to whether or not you've ever picked this implement up before, or if this is the first time for this tractor and implement. You need 2,200 to 2,400 psi at the gauge. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:26am
| Firts off, if i want directions ill ask my gps. This is the first time with this mower on this tractor. The tractor also will not lift my moco which lifts off of remote. So as of mow it won't work any implement. I dont currently have a gauge, so im trying to check what i can until it arrives. |
Posted By: Play Farmer
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:34am
|
Ouch. That attitude won't help you much. Dr Allis isn't some Jonny come lately, he's a darn smart guy who is trying to help. Remember the fly & honey deal. All I can say is good luck. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:38am
| Drallis very well might be the best source for info on here. I hadnt disrespected any one on here and expect the same in return. |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:49am
|
No one should ever talk that way to the Dr! He said nothing to disrespect you. He only suggested you do one thing, and you persist on doing another. He's an expert for a reason. He's one of the top 5 smartest guys on here, as far as I'm concerned. Seems he always has an answer to everything related to big machinery, whether it be a One-Ninety not lifting, a 7080 not moving, or a Gleaner L3 with air in the steering lines. If you so choose to talk that way, I sure wouldn't expect an answer back! JMHO |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 11:52am
All true. However, "You don't take directions very well" sounds pretty insulting, whether meant that way or not. Everybody can be grumpy at times. |
Posted By: Play Farmer
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 12:17pm
If that had been Dr Allis first post then maybe, however just a few posts above that he offered a semi-lengthy explanation and suggestion, which the OP chose to completely ignore, only to come on and ask again after trying something else. When I had an issue with my 7000 I had a few ideas too, however the second I did as Dr Allis suggested the issue was solved. I'm sure he has other things to do then sit here and repeat the same answers/suggestions time after time. I'm guessing some of this is just a case of the keyboard not giving the same meaning as a face-to-face conversation.
|
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 12:23pm
|
^^^ Oh, I get it. Trust me I get it, it can be extremely frustrating both trying to communicate sometimes, and to have people seemingly outright ignore you, to trying to get through an obvious misunderstanding about intent. I simply meant, I think the comment by the Dr. is what ticked the guy a bit. Justified or not, intended or not. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 12:23pm
| As I stated, i do not have the gauge currently. I figured I'd go a head and check what i could with what i have. Seemed logical but apparently not. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 12:31pm
Hang in there. It get's better. It can be double frustrating to have equipment trouble, especially when you're in a bind and need it, then be hamstrung in communication by the limitations of a keyboard, or worse, a smart phone and a bad auto -correct insertion somewhere. Hang in there, take a step back and breathe, a lot of very good people on here who mean well. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 1:18pm
|
As stated earlier by others, without a gauge you are playing with fire by adjusting the relief valve at all and could end up splitting the pump. $2,000 buys you a new aftermarket pump and $700 might buy you a well used one. If it's that critical to get going right now you may have to hire or rent. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 1:42pm
I don't have a dog in this fight but here is my take.The reason the Dr gives directions like he does is to eliminate and or isolate the problem. When given advice from him or others that are very competent, they want to exclude or eliminate any other source of problem. They have been down this road many times. Start with what is most like cause and work from there.When you try more things than one at a time ,you are asking for trouble. I have the same problems with my line of work, I do things for a reason, and inturn expect the desired results. I ain't no genius , and have probably tried their patience too, but and much thankful for their help ans assistance. They have both helped me numerous times. This thread is one of the reasons some with the knowledge to fix your problem, just read and go on. JMHO, Always willing to learn, Tracy ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 2:52pm
|
JDodds, Here is the deal from my perspective of being here for 18 years commenting and watching... Doc is a busy man, like said, he has been down this road many times... and should be glad that he is willing to help and give his expertise. When he asks questions and from the man that has troubles, he needs the answers to help pinpoint the cause. Not picking on you singled out, because many times over the years I have seen that happen, somebody asks for help, then the fellow that tries to help asks questions and then the one needing help disregards answering the questions and makes some other question or statement. To answer the doc, the least you could have done was to say, "I have a gauge coming" some where in your reply and he would have taken that into consideration and he might not have had the answer he gave. My 190XT lifts a 12 ft. moco and has plenty of hydraulics to do it. and the 190 gas will lift a 1327 disbine with the same ease. Question is when you are lifting the discbine or the 3pt, and it does not lift, do you hear any reliief valve squeel? ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: Lester
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 2:56pm
| 175 and 185 can lift more than a 190xt. It is because of the xts have a bad angle on their cylinder to lift arms. On Nebraska test xts are rated less lbs at end of lift arms. That is way the 200 put the cylinder under axle instead of over axle. |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 4:31pm
| Settle down boys, it's Friday, and approaching "beer thirty" . . . . |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 5:17pm
| I like Tim's thinking! A lot! |
Posted By: Joe(TX)
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 8:06pm
The flow divider is on the back of the pump. ------------- 1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 8:54pm
| Well, I've read this whole thing up to this point. Doc. I don't know how old you are but I think we're about the same age. Good to see you still have some fire left, and like myself sometimes these young squirts can get us going, but I tell you I don't believe it's hardly worth the effort anymore. As for the young fellow I think he speaks from frustration and a lack of understanding of what he's messing with, buut to give him credit at least he's trying. Many times our tongue goes in gear before our brain does and that can cause a heck of a clash. Now from my perspective young man don't give up for what you learn will be with you forever, but I do think an apology is in order which no one has suggested yet. And Doc. could you accept it and not kick the dog? There is not enough life left to not enjoy it. Leon R Cmo |
Posted By: thendrix
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 9:18pm
|
Just to clarify, we're talking about a 3 point mounted, folding disc mower and not a drawbar mounted machine correct? This was my assumption when I said you might be over loading a little. Someone earlier made a comment about a 12 foot mower which has to be drawbar mounted and raised with a remote so I just want to clarify which machine we're discussing. ------------- "Farming is a business that makes a Las Vegas craps table look like a regular paycheck" Ronald Reagan |
Posted By: timr
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2016 at 9:56pm
| I realized a long time ago that people who are direct have some of the best solutions so I should listen and not not get offended by the way it's stated. They just tell you what works without alot of sugar coating. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2016 at 6:05am
|
Doc and a few others have always been very direct. Think of it like this....... When I go to my physical doctor and he chews my ass for doing something stupid, well I may be offended at first but in the end he's right. It was pure ignorance, and I don't mean that as a nasty comment, that you turned up the relief pressure without putting a gauge on first. You'll end up splitting your pump or splitting the new pump if you forget it was messed with. Myself, and maybe it's just me, but I don't think anyone needs to apologize. Just move on and get the problem figured out. There is a lot of ignorance out there, sometimes with myself too. I've talked to more than one person who had overhauled their own engine. They got the brand new kit. Slapped it in. Did no checks on clearances. Didn't even bother to thoroughly wash each piston and sleeve and give them the white glove treatment before going in. I just don't even bother telling them because it's too late and the damage is done. Now if I talk to them again and they wonder why it smokes like a freight train two years later I ask them what preparation they did to the kit before installation. They'll say .......what do you mean? That's why there are professionals who in the long run will save you money. It's alright to learn but not so much when you need to go right now. Heck I built my own waterway once. Only once then when we hired a guy this spring to redo what I and Dad did, well you wonder, for the money why did we waste our time. We caused washouts that weren't there before....... yada yada yada.......... anyway, you get the drift. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 11:44am
| Ok got the gauge on the remotes and there is 600psi on all remote hook ups. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 12:03pm
| With engine running above 1800 RPM, there should be 2,200 to 2,400 psi while you hold a lever fully engaged, making the hydraulics work. If your power steering seems normal, I'd suspect the relief valve has failed on the hydraulic stack. You could swap the Traction Booster relief cartridge (front of valve stack and easy to access) for the main relief cartridge(rear of valve stack and miserable to access) and adjust it up to correct pressure spec for a quick fix. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 12:10pm
| When you say valve stack, is that where the spools are located? Im not familiar with the traction booster relief cartridge or the main relief cartridge. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 12:15pm
| I may have found the culprit. On the first piece of the stack, the valve that has the acorn nut with the adjustment screw under it, there is an arm that is supposed to sit against the valve on the back side. That arm is flipped down. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 12:35pm
|
Ok i put that arm back where it went, backed the relief valve screw back off to where i started at, ran it up to 2000 rpms, and im at 1000psi. I need to figure out exactly what and where the cartridges are and ill switch them |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 12:45pm
| How far is the plunger supposed to stick out the back of the relief valve? Mine is sticking out about 1 1/2 in. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 2:45pm
| It would be worth your while to order a 190 service manual. It would explain most of how the pump works and the guys on here could supplement that information. |
Posted By: Trinity45
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 2:53pm
| Maybe a good point, never had a 190XT, just the 185 and 175 and down. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 3:46pm
A pic ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 3:47pm
another ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 3:55pm
| So to do what drallis said, do i remove the large nut on the lift system relief valve and swap the guts with the traction booster relief valve? |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 4:28pm
| I switched the cartridges, no change |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2016 at 9:54pm
|
The linkage you are talking about has nothing to do with relief valve. If you switched the guts, it is hard to tell where you are. I would suggest you get some one with a flow rater to check the system out before you blow the side out of pump, then it will big $$$$$$. MACK
|
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 8:53am
| The relief cartridge is always where to start repairs, as it is easy and inexpensive to rebuild. Usually the Traction Booster cartridge is good, as it isn't used as much as the main relief valve, so it can be used for testing. I always install a new seal kit in an existing cartridge to rebuild it. After that, if the rebuilt cartridge won't adjust to proper pressure, the hydraulic pump is the next logical component to explore. You tractor is of the age it should be a triple stacked pump, with one section devoted to lifting the hitch and implements. Good cartridge?? then there must be an internal pump problem. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 8:57am
| It dawned on me a bit ago that once i switched the cartridges i never adjusted the pressure on the cartridge that is now in the main relief. Assuming the cartridge would be set lower coming from the traction booster side. Should i adjust pressure while monitoring gauge? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 9:17am
| Traction Booster cartridge isn't that much lower....only about 2,000 to 2,100 psi. Should try to adjust it anyway, just to see what happens. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 10:07am
| If you change the relief setting 1/2 turn or 1 turn (or whatever) with no results, you'd better return the cartridge back where it was or it will be too HIGH when the pump gets repaired, and split the pump wide open. |
Posted By: jdodds79
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 10:42am
| I went a full turn in, no change. I moved back out. I have a guy coming today to work on a baler, he is also an allis mechanic so im going to have him check it out. Thanks for all the help. Ill let you guys know what ends up being the problem. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 11:01am
|
For the members reference, can someone name some shops who could repair that valve, and/or similar valves? The shop must have the technical skill, be priced fair, and be able to get to it quickly. I am not saying THAT valve needs any service, just a general question. Thanks. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 11:12am
| Any AGCO Dealership that used to be an Allis-Chalmers Dealership, probably has a seal kit for the relief valve on hand, and in 30 minutes or less could reseal it and adjust the pressure setting using another tractor. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2016 at 12:20pm
|
I was thinking a valve that is slightly corroded, spring loaded spools stuck. They would have the judgement to cleanup polish and reuse, get a new part, hone some bores and such. And have a good selection of o-rings. That alone would drive me nuts, finding good substitute o-rings. |