Model b wont start need help
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123910
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Topic: Model b wont start need help
Posted By: Hamblin28
Subject: Model b wont start need help
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 5:02pm
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My father in law rebuilt this tractor over a few years he had given up on it but I'm determined to get it running for him. I has new sleeves pistons carb everything, I just times the mag number 1 cylinder fires on the center mark. I know the firing order is 1243 that all checks out. It is kinda hard to crank I see videos where they spin super easy so I'm guessing this is because of it all being new with good compression. When I had the number 1 plug out checking time I got a fire ball out of the manifold guessing fuel got to the exhaust and 2 set it off. Fuel drips out of the carb from what looks like a pin hole not sure what that is or why it's leaking. Anyone know how to set up the carb to factory settings? I may need to try and pull start it once my tires are mounted. Any help is greatly appreciated! |
Replies:
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 5:35pm
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You could have spark at TDC of number one and still be out of time IF it has the wrong magneto or the mag was assembled wrong. Maybe you should go down the line checking spark at TDC of each cylinder? If it was all rebuilt, was the crankshaft timed with the cam properly? ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 5:50pm
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I have checked tdc and spark hits right the timing may not be perfect but it hits when the center mark is dead center in the inspection hole in cyl1. All 4 cyl spark when they are too dead center. He says he marked the cam and crank and put them back in the way they came out. I think its a fuel issue but have no clue how to set the carb on these old tractors. The carb has a hole like a over flow on the bottom and it drips whenbi crank it. Any idea what that is? I also don't think we are getting the motor to spin fast enough cause it only spins enough to fire one cyl then it stops I think it would need to spin more feely to start. I've never ran one of these tractors this is all new to me |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 6:13pm
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Couple thoughts, check the mag shaft, to make sure it is turning, and not worn enough to open and close the points, from side play (bushing wear). Fuel leaking from the overflow could be float level too high, initial settings of 1-1/2 turns from gentle bottoming, should generally get it running.
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Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 6:22pm
| Okay so he showed me some picture from when he was rebuilding it he says there was letters on the crank and cam gears and he lines them up is this true? Of not is there a way to check if the cam gear and crank is lined up? If I have to tear it apart how do I time them to each other? I will set the carb screw right now |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 6:24pm
| The mag is good I had it off in a vise and hand spin it it sparks on all 4 points good blue sparks so thats good |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 8:30pm
| Easy to check the cam timing by taking the valve cover off and at TDC when you get spark on number one both valves would be closed or rocker arms up to where you can get your feeler gage between the rocker pad and the valve stem. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 8:36pm
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In that vintage there was NO factory setting for the carburetor. There is a suggested begining setting that usually is good enough to get the engine to run but needs tuning after that to take care of variations inside the carburetor and engine. I know I've written tuning procedures on this forum in the last month or two. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 8:37pm
| Okay well I believe it is in time. The valves are both closed when the number 1 is on tdc when it fires. I have reset the carb screw no more fuel leaking and I smell fuel on the plugs. I just don't think we are getting enough rpm to get it started. I will try some starting fluid and see what happens. If not I will wait till my tubes come in and tires mounted, then try to pull start it with the truck. I'm new to tractors so I thank you guys for all the info hopefully this old tractor will run again soon! |
Posted By: Bill Long
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 8:50pm
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Hamblin28, I have to admire your determination to get my favorite running. Many others would have given up. The crank gear and the cam gear have timing marks that must be timed for the engine to run properly. A few thoughts. What year is the B? - serial number by the gear shift. If you can do it send us a few pictures. They may help. Seems like you fuel flow is good but check to be certain - take off the fuel line where it enters the carburetor and open the valve. Do you have go good steady flow. Pull the carb and be certain the float is not damaged and floating. If that OK then be certain the valve is cutting off the flow. Then check the float level - I am away from home and do not have my library available. Can someone give him the proper adjustment for the float valve? While there it would be wise to clean the carburator - can never be clean enough We all wish you the very best. I want to see my favorite running right. Especially from a person who is so determined. Remember it is a family tractor. Good Luck! Bill Long
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Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 8:57pm
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He bought a remain carb and it has had sitting in it for a few years I drained it all out and put fresh in. I have not disassembled the carb yet which I probably should to clean it. The tractor was left by a family member that Owens the house before. It has sat for 20 years they got it running then it sat for some years. When they went to start it the piston has rotted so the rod went through it. Now it has all new sleeves piston everything it just needs some tlc to get it back to it's former glory. Are these timing marks on the crank and cam visible without taking the motor back apart? I was not the one who reassembled it I am just the determined one trying to get this thing back to it's former glory |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 8:58pm
| It's also a 1942 b |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 9:04pm
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Sounds like it's just flooded to me. Shut off gas. Clean or replace spark plugs. Drain carb bowl. Crank over engine with no plugs to help dry out cylinders. One other thing to check is be sure the engine has air. Too many folks have had a mouse or bird build a nest in there and the tractor will not run without air. At this point I would keep the gas off and see if it would run a few seconds on starting fluid. Then turn on the gas and see if it will run. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 9:08pm
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It has brand new champion plugs, I will pull the plugs and crank it over with the fuel off then throw the plugs back in to see if it will fire on starting fluid. It is getting air and if I put my hand over the carb when a friend cranks it It trys to pull my hand through the carb haha. I need to disassemble the carb and make sure the jets are clean, is the crank and cam gear timing marks visible without taking the motor apart? Sorry for my lack of knowledge on tractors haha |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 9:53pm
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Get rid of the Champion plugs. They don't clean up after being coated with carbon from rich running for firing. The Champion vintage tractor plugs are junk. The crank and cam gear timing is under the engine front cover. You have to take off the crankshaft pulley to take that timing cover off of most engines. And probably have to pull the radiator with the engine in the tractor. All my engines with updraft carburetors need full choke to fire while cranking, but need the choke opened as soon as they have run a few seconds. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 29 May 2016 at 10:15pm
| Okay well tomorrow I will check the crank and cam timing. What plugs do you recommend? |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 6:54am
No need to check the timing gear marks when the valves are working properly as you already checked with the rocker arms and spark at that time.   |
Hamblin28 wrote:Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 7:10am
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If it is out of time at the gears you will not get vacuum to get fuel to the plugs. I do not have batteries in my magneto tractors. Battery costs are to high for me to keep up for as many tractors that I have that do not get used regularly. I start them all 6 volt tractors with a 12 volt jump start hooked directly to the starter. Before I bought the jump start I used a 12 volt tractor.
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Posted By: Hubnut
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 7:40am
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Start with the easiest things first. I would not open up the engine to check the gear marks. You already checked that with DickL's suggestion. Assume you are good there. Sounds to me like the mag is not timed properly yet. These can be tricky, but are reliable units in my opinion. Focus on clearing the excess fuel. Then, keeping the fuel off, I would shoot some starting fluid in the carb intake (just a shot), and get a pop. Once she pops and you know the mag is firing in time, then work on the fuel. I agree with others that your float is either too high or the cut-off pin is stuck open.
------------- 1940 B "Lucy" 1941 B w/ Woods L59 "Flavia" 1942 B w/ finish mower "Dick" 1941 C w/ 3-point "Maggie" 1947 C SFW w/ L306 "Trixie" 1972 314H |
Posted By: Leon n/c AR.
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 8:43am
| I would not vote for tearing engine down to check cam timing at this point. I would pull the carb and clean it and check all passages and jets to be sure not gummed up . Second I would re verify TDC on compress by watching to be sure Intake opens and closes just prior to firing on #1 cylinder-both valves will be closed on tdc on next rotation also. Third if that does not work I would try pull starting tractor. Leon |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 8:48am
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If the carburetor has set a long time and had gas in it does need cleaned. If your using carburetor cleaner in a spray can for inside passages you might as well use cold water. (NOT)
I boil any carburetor in liquid laundry soap. I use a half cup of soap to a half gallon of water. That will softer the gunk and then your spray can of carb cleaner crap will blow it out maybe. For one carburetor it would be cheapest way. What carburetor do you have? Does it have the adjustable power jet?   |
Posted By: dave63
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 8:52am
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I had a hard time starting my C after rebuilding it. One simple thing that took me awhile to figure out. I installed a good used exhaust manifold that I got my hands on and didn't put the steel plate on it. The screw holes were open and it would not run until I put screws in those holes. Another note, Allis Chalmers published a wonderful service manual. No one should be with out this manual. you can get one from any AGCO dealer. Do not waist money on an IT manual. ------------- The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend? |
Posted By: dave63
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 9:07am
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It was hard to get my C running by hand cranking. I had no one to crank for me. If you have another belt pulley tractor you could belt it up and crank it over through the belt pulley. ------------- The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend? |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 10:11am
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Used to be able to download vintage AC tractor service manuals from www.grandpastractors.com but its been hacked. I have manuals downloaded for B, C, G, CA, and WC and can e-mail them unless there is an attachment size limit for e-mail. I suppose I should make a web page for them, or at least a file folder on line. I have one shop manual that covers B, C, G, and CA in one manual from AC, and separate manual for G only, a G parts book, a military B manual, and a WC manual in 9 pieces about 9 MB each. As far as plugs, any brand but Champion. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 10:46am
| I have varified timing I know it won't be perfect till I can fine tune it when it's running but I find the fire mark in the inspection cover then slowly crank. The magneto pops and fires the number 1 spark plug on the center mark. I've gone down the line and done this with all 4 cyl to make sure they spark on tdc and they do. I think I need to pull the carb and disassemble and clean it really good then find a post about the float adjustment to make sure that's all in order. He had bought that car as a rebuilt used one so who knows if it was ever adjusted to factory spec. Last night I got a pop through the exhaust with starting fluid but I don't think it's spining fast enough to get it running since the rings haven't sat yet. I will get it running one way or another haha |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 12:52pm
| It's been a while since I did it, but there should be two timing marks on the flywheel of a B. One is TDC and the other is FIRE. The fire mark is for the impulse of your mag when turning it over slowly. Make sure you have the FIRE mark timed correctly. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 12:55pm
| From what I've read the "fire" mark is when the piston is 30 degrees out then the "center" mark is too dead center and when the number 1 spark plug should fire. That's how I have it times to fire on top dead center |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 2:20pm
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You absolutely don't want the impulse to fire when cranking before top dead center. That makes for really hard cranking because the combustion will turn the engine backwards and break your cranking arm or hand. The impulse mechanism in the magneto has two jobs, one is to delay the spark for safe cranking, and the other is to spin the magnet past the coil much faster than the shaft is rotating to generate more voltage in the magneto coil so there is enough for ignition. You want the spark before top dead center when running to allow for the delay of the combustion getting up to full pressure. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 2:30pm
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I have it set to fire at the center mark on the fly wheel which is too dead center from what I've read that's correct untill I get it running to fine tune the timing. Just to make sure i have this right , fire is when the piston is 30 degrees off of top dead center. The spark plug should fire on the "center" mark which is top dead center right? |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 3:50pm
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When cranking you want the spark slightly AFTER top dead center, otherwise it will kick back and break your cranking hand. When running you want the spark 30 or so degress before top dead center else the engine efficiency is very very poor, no guts. Engines with distributors use centrifugal advance to vary the timing with the engine speed for better fuel economy and engine performance. Automotive engines add vacuum advance for part throttle operation because that gives better performance. I changed a car engine from dual advance to centrifugal advance once and with centrifugal only it performed great at full throttle but was doggy at part throttle. I went back to the dual advance as soon as I could acquire a new original distributor. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 4:56pm
If you get spark and you have the Center/TDC line in the center of the inspection hole it will have the fire line in the center of the inspection when running with a timing light. That is exact timing. At least it has been on all of these little Allis engines that I have worked on. From what you have posted timing is not your problem. |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 30 May 2016 at 10:11pm
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Did you check timing by pulling #1 spark plug and sticking your finger in the hole as you crank? You can have the timing 180 degrees off. When you feel air coming out of plug hole 1, turn the crank until the screw on the crankshaft pulley is facing up. the look at where the rotor is pointing in the mag. It should point the the upper left wire terminal and to a raised post that is used to time the mag. You can also squirt gas into the plug holes, the try to start it. LOL Bob ------------- 4 B's, 1 C's,3 CA's, 2 G's WD, D14, D15, B-1, B10, B12, 712S, |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 10:59am
| I'll check to see if I'm 180 off when I get home, I'll clean the carb and check the float adjustment to see if that's my problem and go from there |
Posted By: cpg
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 12:33pm
| I would see if you are 180 off by checking with the actual piston and valves for TDC on compression stroke as recommended. I'm not sure if the B has a specific bolt pattern on the flywheel or not but with some tractors you can put the flywheel on 180 degrees from where it was originally so since your engine has been out it is possible the timing mark on the flywheel is off. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 2:37pm
He already checked that when he got spark at TDC and checked the valves on number one and both were closed. If he was 180º off one of the valves would have been open because it would have been the exhaust stroke.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 4:58pm
I don't know of a four cycle engine that you can put the flywheel on wrong. The bolts are either staggered or crankshaft keyed to the exact position.
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 5:08pm
| Unrelated information and could be helpful to newbies. When working on an engine of any amount of cylinders and you are unsure of the firing order you can remove valve cover or covers. Find TDC to number one with both rocker arms up. Mark above the plug hole #1 . Turn the engine over by hand very slowly and watch for the next rockers on a cylinder to both be up and mark #2 above the plug hole. Continue until you are back to number #1 and you have the firing order. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 8:11pm
| I believe everything is correct I'm 99% sure it's fuel related at this point. I had things come up today so I didn't have a chance to clean and adjust the carb. I will report back my findings and go from there thank you guys for all your help! |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 31 May 2016 at 8:48pm
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Another picture to compare. 
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Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 6:33pm
| Well got the tires mounted and pulled it out of the been today. Pulled it twice and it smokes grayish blue while trying to pull start it, it started raining before I could mess with it too much. I pulled a plug and they were wet with a strong gas smell so I think I need to re check timibg. I think it's firing late, and clean the carb. Anyone have factory float setting on hand? There was some fuel coming out of the tiny hole in the bottom of the carb. Too much fuel? It smelled rich while we were pulling it. If the rain holds off tomorrow i should have the ole girl running again! |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 8:23pm
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I know you said you "went down the line" and the sparks looked ok. Look at Dick's picture. The #1 plug wire is at 10 o'clock on the distributor cap. The rotor turns clockwise, so next plug wire, at 2 o'clock is for cylinder #2. A guy I know wired his up with the 8 o'clock position going to #2 cylinder, wrong! All the tractor did was huff and puff and wheeze, sort of like you describe. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 9:07pm
| Mine are the same as his. Anyway to tell if I'm 180 degrees out on timing? Maybe I'm on the wrong stroke? |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 9:07pm
| When using ether to start by hand cranking, BE CAREFUL. You're trying to start an unfamiliar engine and with perhaps a timing issue and they have a history of kicking back like a Missouri mule. This tractor should start as easy with a 1/4 turn of the crank as they will with a battery. I would try to start it with single pull on the crank instead of trying to spin it by hand. The impulse spins the mag plenty fast to start it. On an engine that is obviously badly flooded, I would pull one plug at a time, stand to the side out of the line of fire and touch a propane torch to the plug hole. I've had them blow a pretty good fire out of the plug hole , but she ain't flooded no more. And I would do one at a time, so you could be sure to be standing out of the way. I'm serious about this hand cranking thing. Do a quarter turn starting at the 9-10 o'clock position with thumb tucked into your palm. I like to pull the engine up until feeling compression. then give a quick snapping pull. Not near as much danger of a kick back. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 9:21pm
| If you think your timing might be 180 degrees off just move your plug wires 180 each and try it. This'll start it if you are off 180. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 9:42pm
To set the float, just turn the carb upside down and make sure the float is level with the gasket surface. There is a cintered plug in the bottom of the carb to let excess gas out when it is flooded. Is the air cleaner plugged up? That will make it flood real easy. Disconnect the air cleaner and try it if you have it connected and aren't sure the air cleaner is "open". I have flooded my WC when I was tinkering with carb, mag and it wouldn't start again till I pulled the plugs and burned them off with fire and wire wheel. I think today's gas has something to do with varnishing up a plug that gets flooded. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 9:46pm
Like I said above. If you are 180º out when you get spark on number one plug which is above the magneto to the front. The exhaust valve would be open or one rocker arm would be down and the other one would be up. If both valves are closed then you are not 180º out.
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Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 10:10pm
| I've seen some kick backs trust me I would never get in the way of that haha. We were pull starting it with the truck. I'll pull the valve cover and make sure I'm in time as well as double check the timing on the marks. I'll clean the carb and check the float to make sure that's all good. Not too sure what else to do at this point if all that checks out. I think it's a carb issue or something cause the plugs were soaked after we pulled it 100 or so feet. Seems like it's over fueling. Is there a way to set the jets and all that like run it all the way in then so many turns out to start with? Sorry again for noob questions this is all new to me |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 1:08am
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If it's just the float seat not shutting the gas off and allowing too much gas into the bowl or if the float is misadjusted too high it will flood the engine. Shut off gas. Drain bowl on carb. Turn on gas until you count to 10 and shut off the gas. The engine will run for a minute or two with just the gas in the bowl. My one-seventy will self flood if parked and the gas left on due to the float seat not fully shutting off the gas supply. I keep the gas turned off when parked for this reason. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: PatrickBeth
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 7:45am
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it's just a B thing, they are all like that. Have had mine for 25 years, rebuilt and overhauled last year, grand expectations of a non problematic hand cranking tractor when done, nope still the same tractor but with no leaks or smoke! Mine don't like to start when remotely flooded. I don't set the mag off of top dead center. Find the fire mark on the flywheel, take the mag off, the mag engaugnent should be horizontal, if it's not, your cam is off, pull cover, check marks, they are real easy to see. If the engagement for the mag is horizontal, then put a plug in the mag in number one. Spin mag, see number one spark. Then put Mag back in tractor,you are set. Just got to learn the tractor, each have its quirks. Find a club, a B guy will help you, also find a mag guy have him give your mag a tune up! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 9:02am
Make it simple, Take the plug out of #1 cylinder and turn the engine by hand till you feel compression in the plug hole with your thumb or finger blocking the hole. Bring it to the TDC mark or feel for the piston with a wire, It will stop moving at TDC for a bit. Then, take the cap off the the mag to see where the rotor is pointing. That is the number one wire no matter where in rotation it is, follow clockwise around using firing order to place the rest of the wires. If you want the wires to stay the way they are and it is out, you have to remove the mag and turn it till the rotor points to the wire you want to use for #1 cylinder.
An often missed and totally simple thing is, the drive slot for the mag, on the back of the governor housing HAS to be horizontal when at TDC. You won't have enough twisting available in the mag slot to get it in time if that slot is not horizontal at TDC. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 9:48am
Tucker, read back thru all of his posts and you will see that all the timing checks has proven it was in time. He has had spark on number one at the time it was in the TDC line with both valves closed. That would prove he was on the compression stroke. When a cylinder is not on the compression it has to be on the exhaust stroke and to empty the cylinder of the exhaust the exhaust valve has to be open. I fail to understand with him proving this out why so many want to take him back to timing being 180º out. If his drive slot was not horizontal it could not fire and have the TDC line in the inspection hole. The only thing I can come up with is a confusion on locations. I would sure love to make a trip to see what is up but it is not an option for me.
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Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 10:01am
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Do you have a hand crank? If so, try cranking it VERY slowly. If it starts or fires your impulse timing is off. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 11:37am
| I agree with Dick, it would seem like the dang thing is in time. But, and here's a BIG BUT for me. The last time I timed a mag. was in 1958 and there seems to be some blanks in my memory. I do recall that I had to back the impulse up or something of that order to get it to start. Now if this so, it looks like it could be 180 off. I'm not disagreeing with Dick because he's made his living working on these things whereas I tended to gravitate toward big trks. I sure don't know it all and forgotten most of what I know. It's hexx to get old!. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 2:34pm
I thought it sounded like he had checked everything for timing but he asked how to tell if he was off 180! I thought it easier to type a few extra words than go back thru 2 pages of stuff to analyze what all he had done. I have also gone over things before and thought, " oh, I already checked that", and end up finding something simple that I missed. I call that the distant star syndrome. If you look at it too long, you can't see it anymore so sometimes the best thing is to walk away and start all over another day or at least, get a different angle to the way you look at it. I wish I could be there too. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 8:12pm
| Well I worked on it for a few minutes today in between rain storms, I followed the number on piston to tdc with a wire both valves closed and the mag sparked #1 plug at the center mark. Its dead center in the inspection hole. So I shot a little ether in it and cranked it. It backfired out of the intake with a little fire ball. The air cleaner is off. So now I'm confused am I firing to early or what? I didn't think to look at what cylinder fired to cause the back fire. I retarded the timing just a hair and now if popped and shot a fire ball out the exhaust. It's flooded and I'm leaning to carb issues because fuel leaks out of the carb after maybe 10 cranks. Guess I'll pull the carb take it apart clean it and make sure it's set right to see if it will fire then fine tune it. Not sure how to post photos but I'm sure it would help you guys help me if I can figure it out |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 8:26pm
| Maybe I need to pull the head off and front cover to check can timing and stuff. Like I said my father in law started this rebuild 9 years ago and has never got it to run. He's not very mechanically inclined and can't remember what he has checked and not.. I've worked on cars all my life but this has me stumped. I know a motor needs air fuel compression and spark. Suck sqeeze bang blow. If I get the barn all ready to go and it doesn't run I guess I'll pull it apart and start from square one. He had the whole motor off out new sleeves pistins the whole nine. I'm 23 and and this tractor is fasinating to me I want to restore this thing to it's former glory! |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 9:23pm
| Hamblin, you need to leave the gas turned off once the carb. is filled. You can start and kill it a dozen times on just the carb. gas alone. And since you had these back fires, you have a timing issue somehow, someway. Did you switch the wires yet? There's no need to pull the head at this point. Pull the front cover if you think you need to. In fact it may be a good idea to take a look to satisfy your mind if nothing else. One thing for sure, stop pouring the gas to it. A little gas is good. A whole lot is bad. We'll keep the light on for'ya. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 10:41pm
| Once the carb fills I turn it off, I probably will pull the front cover is there any timing marks or anything to tell me if the cam and all that is timed right?? I have not had a chance to switch the wires due to the weather since its now out side under a tarp. I'll switch the wires tomorrow, so just switch it from 1243 to 4312? And see if it fires? Also one rocker arm is sloppy where I can lift it off the valve it's an intake valve and a couple others are a little loose what's the factory specs on how tight the rockers are? Also is there like an equivalent to a Hanes car manual for these tractors? I've been reading everything I can about this thing. This tractor will run if it's the end of me haha. Thank you guys for all the info so far it's greatly appreciated! |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 11:37pm
| Man you are working in the dark,er rain! Yes, when you pull the front off the tractor you'll see the timing marks and I wonder if that isn't where the problem is. By taking off the front cover you're going to start at at the beginning and one step at a time should get you to where you want. If my memory serves me right Dick put some pics. on here showing the timing marks. Go back and look when you get it apart and make a comparison. With my new printer I can't send crap, but I'll get my daughter to send what the IT has in it. While not great it will give you an idea of what you're looking for. And it's no problem for us to do. Hope, Hope. Maybe I'll learn how to run the dang thing. My old one was no problem, had it down pat. We'll see. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 11:45pm
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Thank you guys very much, I'll do that just to easy my mind on the cam timing, I need to set the rocker arms for the valves man sure that's all correct, I'll pull the mag again and make sure I'm at tdc and set the mag, then pull the carb apart and clean it make sure it's all setup correctly then give it another go. Hopefully the weather breaks in the next few days so I can get back on it. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 6:48am
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The backfiring sounds like a timing issue (to me). Are the gears in the mag timed correctly? The gears (rotor) inside the mag must be timed correctly or the points will not be opening at the time the rotor is contacting the terminal in the cap. Are you using a Fairbanks-Morse or WICO mag? If you are using a FM mag, #1 wire should go in the 10-11 oclock position, with the #2 at 2-3 oclock, #4 at 4-5 oclock and # 3 at 7-8 oclock. If it's a WICO, (I believe) everything is moved clockwise one position so the rotor (pointer) is pointing to the "window" in the cap (I'm not that familiar with a WICO mag) I believe the #1 cylinder will be at 2-3 oclock. My advice is to turn the engine until it is on the compression stroke. Have someone watch the hole in the left side of the tractor for the "FIRE" mark (forget TDC and time using the impulse). Stop with the "FIRE" mark at the pointer on the compression stroke. The slots where the mag mounts should be nearly horizontal (slightly above horizontal on the engine side). Turn the mag backward until it lines up with the slots. Install the mag. The rotor should be pointing at the #1 pole in in the cap. If the gears (rotor) inside the mag are not properly timed, you will continue to get backfiring and you could hurt yourself cranking it if it kicks. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 10:42am
| It's a fair banks mag, when i pulled the mag the first time I had the "fire" mark in the inspection cover. I put the mag in a vise and snapped it over checking for spark and they all sparked. So I snapped the last one so it's ready to fire on 1 then put it back in the tractor it was horizontal and slightly up on the motor side. It sparks cyl 1 when the center mark is dead center in the inspection hole. The I followed it through with a helper it fires 2 4 3. My only question is did he time the cam right so if the rain holds off I'll start pulling the front cover to see off the cam and mag gears are lined up. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 12:17pm
| I think the cam timing is off, we had a short break in the weather so I pulled the carb and cleaned it made sure the float was working properly. Then I followed the spark it fires on 1 but the intavalve starts opening after it fires and the other valves seem to be off. Hopefully the weather is good tomorrow I'll pull the front cover and see what's going on in there hopefully this is the problem. Also he has a ball valve on the gas tank with a inline filter instead of the glass bowl. I found it in the ahead but the lines are missing. So could this be the reason for over fueling? |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 5:46pm
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Your spark is on the exhaust stroke. You are off 180 degrees. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 6:15pm
There's more askew if the exhaust valve wasn't open as the piston traveled upward before ignition, yet started to open after ignition. Both valves should be closed as the piston travels upward and remain fully closed for the entire downward stroke. It's almost as if the engine was turning backwards - if I understood the description correctly. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 6:24pm
He said the INTAKE valve opened right after it fired, That means the spark is on the wrong cylinder. That is why you put your thumb on the plug hole to find the COMPRESSION stroke before attempting to put plug wires on and time it. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 6:55pm
| Sorry I got the intake and exhaust valves mixed up and compaired it to the old one it's the second valve from the radiator that opens after it fires on cyl 1 so it was the exhaust valve opening again sorry I'm new to this I ordered a allis chalmers manual so once that comes in I'll have lots of info on this tractor haha. I didn't realize the valves switch from cyl to cyl that was my mistake. The weather is suposed to be nice tomorrow so I'll work on pulling the front cover and check cam timing. I've never done it so any pointers or tips be for I tackle it? It seems the radiator, starter pully and all that needs to come off before the cover can come off anything else? |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 7:06pm
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Or I guess I could hold my finger over the hole find the compression stroke and try to time it. Im kinda confused as it's timed to the "center" tdc mark or does it fully rotate the fly wheel once for intake and once for the exhaust stroke and I have it timed to the wrong rotation? Can some one tell me a step by step how to time it? I've found the fire mark then timed the mag. The rotor was slightly higher on the motor side not perfectly horizontal. Then slowly cranked it till cyl 1 sparked the center mark shows dead center in the inspection hole so I assumed it was in time so maybe I'm on the wrong stroke or the cam timing is way off I'm confused at this point. Sorry for all this confusion this is all new to me but I'm trying to read and learn everything I can about this thing so I can rest or it to it's former glory. Thank you guys for being patient with me I appreciate all the help! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 7:18pm
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Yes there are 2 TDCenters. One is the compression stroke and the other is the exhaust stroke. All 4 cycle engines have the timing mark show up twice for each cycle . All you should have to do is switch the plug wires out 180 degrees and start it up. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 7:47pm
| Okay so normal is 1243 should it be 4312 is the opposite? |
Posted By: alan-nj
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 8:12pm
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you have nothing to lose by switching wires....and its a lot easier than pulling the cover...try it....just keep them in order....sounds like you are 180 out. ------------- If ignorance is bliss, than happy days are here again. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 8:22pm
| Well I switched the wires and shot some ether in it and it started but died there's no fuel in the bowl so I'll take it off tomorrow and see what's up with it. But it would start for a few seconds till it ran out of either multiple times. Ran out of way light so tomorrow I'll report my findings it may be running good tomorrow thanks to you guys!! My father in law about crapped his pants when he heard it fire it's been over 15 years since this tractor has ran! Thank all of you guys so much! |
Posted By: Leon n/c AR.
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 8:24pm
| I think that is right 4312. Easy way to be sure you are not off 180. Leon |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 8:36pm
| It was 180 out it fires off either and ran a few seconds it seems my float is stuck as I'm not getting fuel so I'll look into it tomorrow! |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 9:34pm
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Glad you are making progress. So now you know about TDC on the compression stroke. I read the thread, maybe I didn't grasp it all, can you please answer some questions? 1) Do you have the hand crank? 2) Does it have an electric starter? 3) What make and model carburetor? 4) If yes to hand crank, how tough is it to crank over? If the engine was rebuilt wrong and the bearings are not right, when you do get it running it may hand grenade. Try to tell us how much effort to crank. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 10:02pm
| It's a hand crank it's easy to crank it does get a little resistance due to compression but with plugs out it spins over with one finger. I can't remember the name on the carb I'll have to look tomorrow |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 10:08pm
| I think it's a zenith I'll look tomorrow and let you know! |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 11:18pm
| No matter where you put the #1 wire it still fires 1243. The internals of the engine is what determines the firing order not the cap. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 6:40am
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It sounds good that you can turn the engine easy with no plugs. That engine has a tricky situation with bearings and shims and clearances. It would not be too hard to get a bearing in a bind, which equals heat, which equals disaster. I would say you are cleared for takeoff. It has been my lifetime experience that the Champion J8 was a random headache. I went out of my way to get Autolite 295's for my tractor. Your B has no electrical system? No starter, no lights, no generator? Does the flywheel have a ring gear, does the torque tube have a hole for a starter? I don't know the production history of what got in as standard when, plus there was a war on you know, maybe they reverted back to hand crank only for a time. You got to know that a carb and the needle valve/seat problems can drive ya a little batty. Just as frustrating as the spark quest. And then we will have a spat over inline filter and rubber hoses vs. original fuel bowl and steel lines. Some carb rebuilder outfits send an inline filter with each rebuild and a note saying "use this filter or warranty void". I think I read you do not have the stock fuel bowl shutoff? My advice, add an inline gravity type filter now. Then you will only have to take apart the carb for cleaning just once. |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 8:14am
I have found that in many instances, the inline fuel filter restricts the flow too much to supply the engine by gravity. Make sure you have good fuel flow before you tear into the carb, and potentially waste time and money(or create other issues..) ------------- Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 11:21am
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Well got the carb all straightend out and it started second crank no smoke no rattles or leaks she purrs like a kitten. Took it up and down the property a few times with no issues till it ran out of gas. Got a few errands to run then I'll get gas and run it some more. Thank you guys for all your help. And yes no electrical system no lights no e start hole for the a start it's a 1942 hand crank only |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 2:48pm
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When everything is working you can pull the mag and turn it 180. Then put the wires back where they were originally. Retime the engine with a timing light and you'll be good to go. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 2:58pm
WHY! The wires are were they need to be the way the mag is mounted. It doesn't matter one bit if he leaves it that way or wastes time going thru this all again. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 3:27pm
| Did it occur to you that the plug wires would fit as designed if he's running OEM wires of the original length? |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 3:57pm
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It's alive! Very good. Another B stirs the dust. I bet your status went up a few notches with the father in law. Oil pressure good? Check the valve lash after running some. |
Posted By: Hamblin28
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 4:20pm
| Has good oil pressure valve lash is good it's all good! The father in law had been riding around all day on it haha. Once I get time I will sand it down and paint it and try to restore it and make it look all pretty again. This is exciting thank you all for your help i couldn't have done it without you guys! |
Posted By: BenGiBoy
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 7:06am
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Glad you got 'er running again!! The "B's" are nice little tractors.... ------------- '39 Model B Tractors are cheaper than girls, remember that! |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 8:38pm
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👍👍👍 👏👏👏👏 ------------- Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 10:17pm
| Hamblin I don't know how it can happen but the shaft to the mag gets bent. I know, it can't happen, but it does. You might check that, and at the same time check the bushings. If there is to much vibration it can screw up the timing. But I still think it's in the mag. timing. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 10:28pm
| Dang, I don't know where the thread was that let us know you had it started. And I strained my brain for nothing. Good deal that it's running Leon R Cmo |