WD45 Reliance vs M&W Engine kit comparison
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121191
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Topic: WD45 Reliance vs M&W Engine kit comparison
Posted By: Allis dave
Subject: WD45 Reliance vs M&W Engine kit comparison
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2016 at 7:48am
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I got my new WD45 Reliance engine kit out to today and wanted to measure and compare it to the old M&W kit. This is the reliance kit with the higher compression D17 pistons. Reliance Kit Advertised compression ratio- 7.25:1 4.125 overbore Bowl volume- 32cc Top of wrist pin to top on piston height- 1.870" M&W AP-48 kit Advertised compression ratio- 7.3:1 4.125 overbore Bowl volume- 73cc Top of wrist pin to top on piston height- 2.120" Does anyone know what either the piston to deck height or wrist pin to deck height would be to calculate compression ratio? What about compressed head gasket thickness? The new gasket is .08 thick, so I was guessing about .04 compressed.  
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Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2016 at 8:20am
| All my old M&W info had the SP-48 kits at 7.4 or 7.5 to 1 compression ratio, not 7.3. Your new kit might be 7.25 to 1 and that's all. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2016 at 8:44am
| The 7.3:1 M&W ratio information was taken from Brian Ahart's site here and an old advertisement I have at home. No idea if M&W had any variations. http://brianahart.net/mwallisspecs.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://brianahart.net/mwallisspecs.jpg |
Posted By: ac45dave
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2016 at 9:40am
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http://brianahart.net/mwallisspecs.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://brianahart.net/mwallisspecs.jpg
------------- 54 wd-45gas ; 56 wd-45d N/F w/fact p/s ; 63 d-17 sIII N/F gas ; 60 D14 N/F ; 67 d-17 sIV N/F gas ; 63D15 sII W/F; 39rc#667 ; 2021 massey 4710 fwa ; gravely 2 wheel tractors |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 8:53am
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Got the new pistons installed with a deck height of .530, compression ratio calculator says 6.25 with a .04 head gasket. The M&W and Reliance wrist pin to top of piston difference has the M&W .247 lower for a deck height of .283. That's calculated because I didn't think to measured when I disassembled. That gives the M&W's a compression ration of 7.53 like the Doc said. A little disappointing that I'll be losing half a point, but there doesn't seem to be any better options these days. **Correction - Edit*** With the corrected dish volumes, the Reliance D17 piston has a compression ratio of 7.25 and the M&W has a ratio of 7.85 |
Posted By: ac45dave
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 9:07am
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they have 8.25:1 available also. they're for the 175 and lp applications.i got a set last year for a future build someday. http://www.powermaxparts.com/DEMO/AC-226-E.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.powermaxparts.com/DEMO/AC-226-E.html ------------- 54 wd-45gas ; 56 wd-45d N/F w/fact p/s ; 63 d-17 sIII N/F gas ; 60 D14 N/F ; 67 d-17 sIV N/F gas ; 63D15 sII W/F; 39rc#667 ; 2021 massey 4710 fwa ; gravely 2 wheel tractors |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 9:35am
| For many years I've gotten to where I don't trust any of the 'after-market" compression ratio claims, so I stick with AGCO OEM pistons and sleeves. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 9:38am
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Well at least it documented here. When I checked last December, the 8.25:1 4" bore kit was on backorder from reliance. Today AGCO said they have the 8.25 motor kit available and would sell it for $900 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 10:39am
| Many of those kits in reality are only 6.5 to 1. When you overhaul a D-17 at 7.25 to 1 and drop that much compression and go to 1/8" overbore to boot, it is a gas guzzling dog compared to what it was with factory pistons. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 4:38pm
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Called AGCO back to order a motor kit. The 8.25:1 kit is "available", but on back order. Called my Reliance dealer and he says the reliance and AGCO kits are both made by the same company. The reliance kit is also on backorder. So the kit I already have seems to be the best I can do. My wallet and wife are thankful for that.
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 4:35am
| The M&W piston in the photo doesn't look bad. Why not re-ring and reuse the same pistons with new 4.125 sleeves? |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 6:39am
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That was my original plan. That piston came from a 2nd set I bought a few years ago. I very good mechanic friend of mine told me he didn't ever want to catch me wasting a good fresh rebuild on a set of used pistons. Now I just wish I wouldn't left the bottom end alone, no more than I use the tractor. Also remember a couple people on here, like Doc I think, say they think the M&W sleeves were just a tad different than a standard 4.125 sleeve. I don't know from experience. Maybe someone will chime in. I don't have the head or oil pan on yet, so I could change pistons. |
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2016 at 7:42am
| If you are looking for more power, the M&W has a off set wrist pin that gives it more power. MACK |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 10:32am
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Correction - Update I'm sorry to say that I may have misled some people. I more accurately measured the piston dish volume last night using a flat plate with a hole in it and sealing with vasaline. I was originally quite a bit off. I edited my original post for reference. I originally posted the D17 kit with a 40cc dish , it really was a 32cc dish. The M&W kit actually has a 73cc dish instead of my original measurement of 80cc. The D17 piston has a 32cc dish. The 32cc dish, .530 deck height, .04 compressed head gasket, and 4.3 head gasket bore make a compression ratio of almost exactly 7.25:1. So This would be a good D17 replacement piston. The M&W has a 73cc dish. The 73cc dish, .280 calculated deck height, .04 compressed head gasket, and 4.3 head gasket bore make a compression ratio of about 7.85:1. I have a Reliance 175 8.25:1 Kit here also. distance from top of piston pin hole to piston top is 2.161 The 65cc dish, .239 calculated deck height, .04 compressed head gasket, and 4.3 head gasket bore make a compression ratio of about 8.49:1 At these higher compressions even a couple cc difference or a few thousands of deck height change the ratio considerably so this may bot be exact. When measuring piston heights, some of different pistons in the sets had different pin to top heights by up to .010. Just that would change the ration by .1:1 The M&W and 175 kits seems a little high to me, but my point here is to say that I do believe the D17 Reliance piston is advertised correctly and the M&W kit has a fair amount more compression over an original D17 piston and a 175 piston has quite a bit more compression than an M&W piston. http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/dmckinney45/media/Piston_3_side_zpsjovbjc72.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  [/IMG]http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/dmckinney45/media/Piston%203%20top_zps68s4sqxb.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  [/IMG]
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 10:46am
| There is also something to be said for top ring placement as well. Both the Reliance and M&W are lower from the top reducing the effective ratio a bit, bringing them down to maybe their advertised ratios....M&W were 7.4 or 7.5 to 1 as I remember them. Reliance might then be down to that 8.2 to 1 like an AGCO set would be. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 11:02am
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Now I am asking a question. I have heard of people using (201) flat top pistons with the 4.5" crank, which we all realize would increase compression significantly (I have heard of 12:1 compression ratios). I have also been told that the highest compression "Power Crater" pistons will dyno more horsepower than the (higher compression) flat top pistons. Is this true? I know Chrysler had great success making horsepower with the hemi (head) engines of the late 60's and early 70's. Was AC doing the same thing using the top of the piston, instead of the hemispherical head? |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 11:40am
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It seems to me that with both a 12:1 compression ratio coupled with low RPM and very high volumetric efficiency you would have predetonation, no matter what the octane of your gasoline. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 12:09pm
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ARE YOU SURPRISED !!!!!!!!! ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 12:24pm
| Cost wise, the A-C perfectly flat cylinder head and a dished piston would be very cheap to build. It still isn't a "Hemi" as the valves are canted, but a centrally located spark plug and air/fuel mixture nevertheless. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 2:27pm
Well Fred all I can say is no I'm not surprised and I have not learned much that I didn't know before.  ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Fred in Pa wrote:Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 3:43pm
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If anyone thinks I'm wrong or miscalculating anything, please chime in and add some info. I'm trying to learn here and make a record of what these kits are. Seems like the "what's the best kit" question comes up all the time. Usually by people more interested in talking than buying. |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 5:09pm
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Now Dave don't get all bent out of shape.This is asked on here one or more times per six months and it's been addressed time and time again. This might help someone out. I left out the low octane INFO. This is taken from Allis Chalmers service manuals. One more little bit of info to keep in mind 4 diff head gaskets where used in the later ser#WC/WF and WD/WD45 tractors alone,so all this info is going to be off some with the newer head gaskets we use in them today. WC/WF gas early ser# factory piston 5.0 to 1 WC/WF gas later ser# factory piston 5.5 to 1 WD gas early ser# factory piston 5.5 to 1 WD gas later ser# factory piston 5.7 to 1 WD45 gas factory piston 6.45 to 1 below 4000 feet WD45 gas factory piston 7.20 to 1 above 4000 feet WD45 LPG factory piston 7.20 to 1 all heights D17 1,2,3,4 gas factory piston 7.25 to 1 below 4000 feet D17 1,2,3,4 gas factory piston 8,25 to 1 above 4000 feet D17 1,2,3,4 LPG factory piston 8.25 to 1 all heights 170 gas factory piston 8.00 to 1 below 5000 feet 170 gas factory piston 8.25 to 1 above 5000 feet 175 gas factory piston 8.25 to 1 all heights I hope this will help out someday. Sorry I didn't post the INFO on E Gleaners, I can't find my service manual. 
------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 5:39pm
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Please don't think I'm bent out of shape. More what I meant to say was, please don't not post an answer or disagreement because you'll hurt my feeling or start an argument. I'm trying to learn here. I'm green and having tons of fun doing this rebuild and having a chance to document some of the many kits I see advertised and contribute to the forum instead of just asking questions. I'm hoping when the question's asked next time, maybe I can point some people here. It is hard to trust that a kit is correct just because it's labeled as WD45, D17, ect. That's one reason I bought the reliance kit and was surprised when I didn't think it matched what they advertised. Now after calculating it out, if someone asks me, I can say, yes I know you'll get about 7.25:1 with this kit, or at least 8.25 with the 175 kit. Now I'm paying for my learning and sloppy calculating by having 2 new kits sitting here and I have to decide if I want to keep in the D17 kit and be safe, or put in the 175 kit and get it out of my system and hope I don't lose a crank or block.
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Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 5:43pm
| I just got off the phone with my closest dealer. He said dont worry about running a 175 kit that it would be fine. Said his WD45 and D17 has been running one for years. I forgot to ask him if timing should be turned down? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 6:34pm
| Timing should be 22 to 25 degrees BTDC at full throttle. The FIRE mark on a WD series is 30 degrees BTDC. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 6:56pm
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What the best way top get the timing set to 25 degrees since there's no mark there? Can I buy one of those timing degree chart/wheels, put the fire mark at 30 degrees and scribe a new mark at 25?
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 7:07pm
| While the flywheel is out of chassis, measure from TDC to fire and figure it out. Half-way is 15 degrees....1/2 of 15 is 7 1/2 which is 22 1/2 degrees make a chisel mark. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 7:25pm
| so is this 175 kit 4" or 4 1/8"? is that agco or reliance ? |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 7:35pm
| From what I understand from talking to a dealer there is no Agco 175 kit anymore. You can get pistons but not a complete kit. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 8:09pm
| The kit pictured is a 4" Reliance kit. AGCO still "offers" the 175 motor kit, but it's on backorder. Probably meaning they're not making anymore until they get enough orders for a run. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2016 at 8:09pm
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I just sold a , Reliance 175 8.25:1 Kit 4 inch bore ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 3:23pm
Here is a pic of the JCC piston I was going to use beside a 229717 Allis piston. I have a NOS Agco 70257452 kit on the way.
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 5:08pm
| The skirt length means nothing. It's the wrist pin to top (and dish volume) that makes a difference. From the picture, it's hard to tell which distance is greater. |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 6:13pm
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The Allis piston in the pic is 7.25:1 going by the other posts about pistons in the knowledge section. The NOS kit I have coming is 7.25:1 also. Just a rough estimate with a tape measure that's all I have right now. The JCC piston is 4 3/8 tall. Top of pin to top of piston 1 7/8. Also just noticed it is 4 1/8 bore. Allis piston is 4 1/2 tall. Top of pin to top of piston is 2". Top ring land is also closer to top of piston. 
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Posted By: 45 turboa-
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 7:07pm
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What company has that JCC piston assys. ------------- turbocharged |
Posted By: 79fordblake
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2016 at 7:32pm
| JCC is a company out of Taiwan. After looking at their site apparently they are a pretty big company and make decent products. |
Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2016 at 7:08am
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Finished installing the new 8.25 pistons last night. As best I can measure just with a caliper, deck clearance is .230. http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/dmckinney45/media/WD45%20Rebuild/8.25%20piston_zpslzglw3uq.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/dmckinney45/media/WD45%20Rebuild/8.25%20piston%20deck%20height%20230_zpsammiaixb.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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